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Landing In Flight Simulator  
User currently offlinevirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 889 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10705 times:

Hey simmers,

Landing? Help?

I sometimes do an ILS approach, and SOMETIMES it works, other time it doesnt. I do all the 'NAV1' things etc and switch the little switch to 'Approach' sometimes it flies towards the airport when its close, other times it just flies straight past, any tips?


And now onto Manual Landings

I tend to fly 737's 767's and 787's

What kinda speed should I approach the runway at? I usually do it at around between 180-200 kntos, and i only press the flaps button twice, anymore and i seem to float and miss the runway. Any other tips?

Also lining up with the runway? Unless its ILS (which doesnt always seem to work) i end up too far left or too far right, as ATC never direct m exactly to the runway, Please help.

Jordan  


The amazing tale of flight.
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3763 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10703 times:

Quoting virginblue4 (Thread starter):
What kinda speed should I approach the runway at? I usually do it at around between 180-200 kntos, and i only press the flaps button twice, anymore and i seem to float and miss the runway. Any other tips?

Slooooooow doooooown! While these planes can all land with the lowest 2 or 3 flap settings, go ahead and use full flaps. There are charts all over that show landing speeds, but you really don't want to be above 150-160 on final approach.. and that may be pushing it.




Quoting virginblue4 (Thread starter):
Also lining up with the runway? Unless its ILS (which doesnt always seem to work) i end up too far left or too far right, as ATC never direct m exactly to the runway, Please help.

Well if you're hand flying, that one's all on you. Just keep practicing.


User currently offlineGingerSnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 892 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10689 times:

This is where payware aircraft really come into their own.

However, in terms of hand flying the approach...just keep practise and make sure you using all the in-cockpit aids as well as visual aids (VASI etc).

My general rule is...
Intercept the localiser at around 170-180 and immediately slow to around 160.
At around 5-7 DME, I lower my last stage of flap and slow to VREF+5 (which on most 737 sized aircraft, is around the 140-150 mark but sometimes less I find). Of course, determining the VREF can be difficult without the correct documentation and payware addons.

Flaps for example help to create lift, to keep the aircraft in the air at slower speeds. Full flaps at 200 KIAS, will not only send you floating away almost...it should in reality do quite a bit of damage to things 

On the PMDG 737 for example, I set the speed to my final APP speed and the aircraft will 'retard' the throttles automatically just prior to touchdown.
On any aircraft without this ability...I like to leave the AT on until around 2-3 DME and then take over the throttles. The best advice I can give, is lower the workload as much as possible with what you have.
On a visual, its unlikely you will be exactly centered when the ATC turns you in for final. Too many variables like bank angle, speed, wind etc to allow for that kind of accuracy. Of course, they turn you in and won't clear you for approach until the runway is in sight. After that, it is up to you to line up correctly (and with enough distance to allow for a margin of error) and fly the approach down to the TZ.
I once forgot to call "runway in sight" to ATC, and they sent me on a missed approach   

Just keep at it and you'll pick it up in no time.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineediCHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10582 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 1):
There are charts all over that show landing speeds, but you really don't want to be above 150-160 on final approach.. and that may be pushing it.

For the 737, full flaps and speed down to 135-145 KIAS on final. One principle that holds in flying (no matter what a/c type), is that the quality of your landing will be determined by how well and how early you are set up on final approach.

No harm in going back to the flight school in FS to brush up a bit.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10521 times:

Quoting virginblue4 (Thread starter):
Landing? Help?

One word: Google.

Memorize approach profiles. Probably a bit too advanced for you at this point but you'll get the jist of it:

http://www.flightsim.com/howto/fly737/fly737_html_m6517e79d.jpg

Using the same profile every time will help you consistently make better approaches and landing.


User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10493 times:

I confess that I too have some difficulties with manual landings. My problem is maintaining 135 to 145 kias without having the nose too high. When I push the nose down, my air speed starts climbing. If I back off the throttle, I sometimes get a stall warning. I don't have tail strikes but sometimes It's close. Any suggestions?


474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10484 times:

Hi Kevin,

Try to maintain correct pitch angles, and then adjust or remove power to have the correct speed. You may well need to keep modulating the throttle continuously.

Look at the weight of the plane (heavier plane means faster landing speed) - then take into account weather (eg, windshear), add any windshear to the vREF (eg, vREF+10 for 10kt winds, or less if you consider that's okay) and then fly the plane in at that speed.

Some planes are easier than others in FSX. I have the feeling in FSX that Concorde (The FSL one) is very easy to land, much like the PMDG 747-400 is, while the MD-11 I always seem to find a bit more difficult since the slightest throttle applications seem to have abrupt effects on the speed.

[Edited 2010-09-13 21:54:04]

User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7387 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10429 times:

I have had that problem at some airports. Sometimes I capture the localizer,click 'app' and the plane nose dives. Some aiports it swerves off wildly. I have been 'simming for 10 years,so I know what I'm doing  


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10404 times:

I might also warn about auto throttle use. While it can be of great utility in some situations, its destabilising effect when hand flying must be appreciated (due to automatic maintenance of speed at all times).

Smooth flying in that situation should be exercised and you should keep a careful watch on vertical speed to prevent excursions from the assigned flight level.

[Edited 2010-09-14 16:21:19]

User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2167 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 5):
My problem is maintaining 135 to 145 kias without having the nose too high. When I push the nose down, my air speed starts climbing. If I back off the throttle, I sometimes get a stall warning. I don't have tail strikes but sometimes It's close.

What aircraft? The approach speed real aircraft flies varies on many things but one of the major factors is mass. The heavier you are, the faster you have to fly to avoid stalling. Do you fly the aircraft with full fuel? For example, fly a 747 from LHR-AMS with full fuel and you can bet your house you will be above the max landing weight for the aircraft!

Real airliners approach 30% above their stall speed to give you enough margin. Try landing the 737 with about 2,000kg in the tanks and you should have no problems.Obviously the default aircraft have shocking flight dynamics which could be part of the issue.


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3763 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

Quoting ediCHC (Reply 3):
For the 737, full flaps and speed down to 135-145 KIAS on final.

Really? In a heavy 8-900?


User currently offlineGingerSnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 892 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10326 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 10):

At a good landing weight, then yes even in the 8/900 (at least the PMDG version) are around 130-150 KIAS on finals at the very most.
I flew a FR 738 earlier and my Vref was 131 w/ 40 flap.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineediCHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10295 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 10):

Really? In a heavy 8-900?

Yeah pretty much. Though I don't very often fly the 800 and never a 900. I prefer the baby 737's, 3/5/6/700s.

As others have pointed out weight is pretty crucial as well. You carry too much excess fuel, you are gonna sink like a stone at 'normal' approach speeds. I have set down an admittedly lightly loaded 733 at an astonishingly low speed of 108 KIAS and an approach speed of 120 KIAS (I was doing some silly stuff trying to land at an airport with a very short runway that usually just manages a BAe146 with weight penalties!)


User currently offlineKevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10291 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
Look at the weight of the plane (heavier plane means faster landing speed) - then take into account weather (eg, windshear), add any windshear to the vREF (eg, vREF+10 for 10kt winds, or less if you consider that's okay) and then fly the plane in at that speed.

I'm still getting a feel for that and often not using live weather updates. I'm not as advanced as most around here. I think my problem is that I'm putting in too much flare trying to grease it in.

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
I might also warn about auto throttle use.

Yeah, I crashed the A-321 a few times because of that and haven't done it since.

Quoting BA777 (Reply 9):
What aircraft? The approach speed real aircraft flies varies on many things but one of the major factors is mass. The heavier you are, the faster you have to fly to avoid stalling. Do you fly the aircraft with full fuel? For example, fly a 747 from LHR-AMS with full fuel and you can bet your house you will be above the max landing weight for the aircraft!

I usually fly the FSX 737-800 or the Vistaliners L-1011 with default fuel which is about 58%. Funny you should mention the 747 fully fueled. I tried it once with full load and fuel @ LAX on 24R and ran out of runway. Luckily the terrain slopes down to the shore.   

Quoting BA777 (Reply 9):
Real airliners approach 30% above their stall speed to give you enough margin. Try landing the 737 with about 2,000kg in the tanks and you should have no problems.Obviously the default aircraft have shocking flight dynamics which could be part of the issue.

Yeah, the default 737 has most of the fuel weight in the center tank and the default A-321 has pretty much equal center and wing loads. I assume you mean 2000kg per tank and do you recommend equal loads, not a center tank biased load?

Quoting GingerSnap (Reply 11):
At a good landing weight, then yes even in the 8/900 (at least the PMDG version) are around 130-150 KIAS on finals at the very most.

OK, so I'm pretty much in the window @ 145kias.
Thanks everyone for your input!   



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5436 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10277 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 5):
Any suggestions?

Don't worry so much about where the nose is pointed in relation to your descent rate.

Just fly at 140-145kts, maintaining a 3-5 degree nose-up attitude and a 700FPM descent rate. In fact, if you only focus on any two of those you'll find the third just seems to happen by itself.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9895 times:

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 13):
Yeah, I crashed the A-321 a few times because of that and haven't done it since.

That's one of the worse FSX planes - I don't think it flies too well at all.

The documentation of FSX planes has landing speeds - it's worthwhile reading that. I can't really offer that much extra help on the default planes as I rarely fly them. It's also worth knowing the approach pitch angles - I know for Concorde I can go up to 10.5 degrees - and you balance that with the correct speed, all else should fall into place fairly easily.


User currently offlineAirbalticfan From United States of America, joined May 2008, 258 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9885 times:

Default airplanes in FSX are far away from reality, so to speak, almost unusable.To get best results you will need to spend some money so you can fly nice payware aircraft.In A320 if you maintain about 135-145knts you will be fine, at least this speed always work for me.

User currently offlineediCHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9876 times:

Quoting Airbalticfan (Reply 16):
To get best results you will need to spend some money so you can fly nice payware aircraft.

There are some pretty good freeware aircraft out there as well...the Project Opensky and Project Airbus ones in particular, spring to mind for good flight dynamics.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9583 times:

Kevin: Here is a good document for you to reference too:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/flightops/flyingtechnique/2

This is one from Airbus that has many good points. Look carefully at the power curve (thrust required to fly). Lower speeds need more thrust to fly (more pitch up attitude). But higher speeds make it less easy to be stabilised in the right amount of time.

Venturing near the back of the power curve means you have less thrust available to you (because you need more thrust just to fly). Higher speeds (less pitch angle) mean you have more thrust available.

And here is another good one:
http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/flightops/flyingtechnique/48

As always, rushed and or high/fast approaches are a recipe for being unstabilised and/or experiencing runway excursions. If it isn't stabilised, go around.

Avoiding tail-strikes:
http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/flightops/flyingtechnique/9 (Boeing)
http://www.smartcockpit.com/pdf/flightops/flyingtechnique/8 (Airbus)

The Boeing one has good information.

[Edited 2010-10-04 19:04:04]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9051 times:

This might help?

http://205.252.250.26/cgi-bin/yabb2/...=COF;action=display;num=1111322151



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinevirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9020 times:

Thank you so much NAV20, that's fantastic!

Jordan



The amazing tale of flight.
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

I found some things worth commenting on...

Quoting cpd (Reply 6):
while the MD-11 I always seem to find a bit more difficult

Should be a bitch in real life too.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 10):
Really? In a heavy 8-900?

142kts Vref for MLW 738 (some 66 tons) at 13C and presure altitude 1200ft.

Quoting KevinL1011 (Reply 13):
Yeah, the default 737 has most of the fuel weight in the center tank and the default A-321 has pretty much equal center and wing loads. I assume you mean 2000kg per tank and do you recommend equal loads, not a center tank biased load?

737 is supposed to have all fuel in wing tanks untill full. Only then you put fuel in center tank. I believe A320 family is similar.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
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