Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 22236 times:
Decided to start a new thread to maximize exposure to those who may have not seen this already.
Well, MS did a minor update of their MSF website (http://www.microsoft.com/games/flight/ ). But damn are they being teasers. Here's a very intriguing FAQ:
Quote:
Q:
What is "Microsoft Flight?"
A:
"Microsoft Flight" is a new PC game from Microsoft Game Studios. The new title will be available on the Games for Windows – LIVE service and will bring a new perspective to the long-standing "Flight Simulator" franchise. From new game play elements and enhanced scenery and terrain to new aircraft and integrated content marketplace, it is an entirely new breed of virtual flight. The Games for Windows - LIVE platform sets the stage for all your virtual flight needs while connecting you to a global base of users, content and endless exploration. Microsoft Flight builds off its heritage of deep, immersive simulation and is redesigned to make the experience easier for virtual fliers of all interests and skills.
Q:
How does “Microsoft Flight” differ from “Flight Simulator?” Why the new name? What’s changed?
A:
With “Microsoft Flight” we’re approaching the virtual flight genre from the ground up, with the focus on the universal appeal of the experience of Flight. We believe the simplicity of “Microsoft Flight” perfectly captures that vision while welcoming the millions of existing Flight Simulator fans. The new “Microsoft Flight” retains the full fidelity simulation longtime fans have come to expect while offering all players a whole new look and feel, a wide range of new game play and challenges, persistent experiences and social connectivity.
Q:
How does Games for Windows – LIVE factor in?
A:
Games for Windows – LIVE introduces a new level of connectivity to virtual flight, enhancing both the social and game play experiences of the title. Content is updated virtually. You can fly solo or join an entire global flight community online. You can easily connect with and facilitate flight experiences with your friends. The addition of Games for Windows - LIVE creates an ubiquitous virtual world of flight that offers easy and engaging access to the magic of flight for all.
Q:
Who is developing “Microsoft Flight” now that ACES is gone?
A:
“Microsoft Flight” is being developed internally at Microsoft by a team that includes many of the same creative minds that helped deliver countless entries in the “Flight Simulator” franchise.
Q:
Why did Microsoft shut down ACES Studio last January?
A:
Microsoft Game Studios is always evaluating its business model to determine what is best for both gamers and the company. Many factors were considered in the difficult decision to close ACES Studio, but we feel the 2009 closure helped us better align with our goals and long-term development plans. "Microsoft Flight" is being developed by many of the same creative minds that shaped "Microsoft Flight Simulator," and we're excited about delivering a new take on this classic franchise.
I get mixed feelings about this. So it looks like it won't be merely just a game after all, however,it's going to be a real challenge to not dumb the sim down so much for the average Joe and still keep it enjoyable for us hardcore veteran MSFSers. This is why I really hope they make two editions: the average Joe edition, and the hardcore edition for the rest of us.
Also, looks like they're pushing for massive online play. This has some great potential if done right. I'm assuming they're planning something similar to the now defunct Microsoft Zone multiplayer system in use for FS98. Again, I hope they segregate the average Joes from the pros, otherwise those of us who like to do long realistic flights will have to put up with 12 year olds trying to ram your airplane and kill you (saw this a lot in the Zone days)
And the thing that worries me most, is the statement saying that it will "retain the full fidelity simulation long time fans have come to expect". I hope this won't mean, as with EVERY other FS release, that under the hood there will be little changes and the game engine will still be basically the same. It's time FS had a serious physics engine and higher fidelity of systems and what not.
At any rate, I hope they take their time with this, and don't rush it like with FSX, and make a proper simulator, more realistic, better graphics, yet without needing a supercomputer. That's a tough one to pull off.
UltimateDelta From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1965 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 22221 times:
Definitely going to be interesting to see how they decide to do this.
Absolutely. I think it's definitely worth taking it beyond the in-game multiplayer. I've experienced a lot of what you mention with stupid kids. That's why I rarely ever bother with that anymore.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter): I hope they segregate the average Joes from the pros
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 22147 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter): Microsoft Flight builds off its heritage of deep, immersive simulation and is redesigned to make the experience easier for virtual fliers of all interests and skills.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter): with the focus on the universal appeal of the experience of Flight.
Sounds to me like they are going to focus on graphics, scenery, and multi player experiences more than realism. Just hope this doesn't turn into some ace combat arcade style garbage......
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Ditto - it's a bit ambiguous. I'm not sure whether it sounds promising or ominous.
Quoting alberchico (Reply 2): Sounds to me like they are going to focus on graphics, scenery, and multi player experiences
Here's hoping they focus on core features, such as the physics, weather, AI and ATC, etc, and make sure they leave enough doors open for 3rd party developers so they don't have to spend so much time working "outside" the framework to provide decent features. Better graphics would be nice eventually but I think there are higher priorities.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 22068 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter): Again, I hope they segregate the average Joes from the pros, otherwise those of us who like to do long realistic flights will have to put up with 12 year olds trying to ram your airplane and kill you (saw this a lot in the Zone days)
Disable aircraft collisions. Problem solved.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 22060 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Disable aircraft collisions. Problem solved.
-Mir
Oh I had it off alright. Still it's annoying as hell to have some other nutjob flying around your plane being stupid taking up your screen and what not as if it was a bunch of flies trying to land on a moving turd. Annoying as hell
JohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1280 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 21909 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SUPPORT
Still worried that they repeatedly says "game" "games" and "game play". I want a sim not an arcade type of thing, even if my super hard core younger brother says I'm flying arcade mode lol
7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1069 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 21770 times:
Well with FSX we had the custom traffic on the roads .. ships .. cool AI stuff. I hope they take that further because it added more to the game. Its taken me years to become good at Flight Simulation. I sure hope it isnt turned into something really dull. As long as it allows for independent ppl to created add-ons and doesnt stray to far from what it already is It should be cool. Hopefully they throw some foreign voices into the cockpits and towers. Sounds dumb having an american clear you for take off in Beijing lol.
All in all Microsoft wants to make money .. I doubt they are going to want to screw us all over with an arcade game. They could just bring out an arcade style flying game for much cheaper and less effort if they wanted to do that.
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21754 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 7): Well with FSX we had the custom traffic on the roads .. ships .. cool AI stuff. I hope they take that further because it added more to the game. Its taken me years to become good at Flight Simulation. I sure hope it isnt turned into something really dull.
I hope for a superior graphics engine that really is very optimised, but otherwise, I hope the rest remains similar to what it is now - so that our addons will readily work in the new simulation.
Well, I hope it is a simulation - but it might well be that it is a game only.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5): Still it's annoying as hell to have some other nutjob flying around your plane being stupid taking up your screen and what not as if it was a bunch of flies trying to land on a moving turd. Annoying as hell
That's what Autoland is for (if your plane has it). My landing will look perfect, regardless of someone trying to fly around blocking my view of the runway.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 21747 times:
Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
That's what Autoland is for (if your plane has it). My landing will look perfect, regardless of someone trying to fly around blocking my view of the runway.
WNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 21555 times:
Hopefully some of the late model addon A/C for FSX will be compatible with MS Flight, much in the same way most of the current addons from FS-9 are compatible with FSX
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 21440 times:
Quoting WNwatcher (Reply 12): Hopefully some of the late model addon A/C for FSX will be compatible with MS Flight, much in the same way most of the current addons from FS-9 are compatible with FSX
Well, if they use the same old sim-engine as in FS9 or FSX, then it would be a definite possibility, but then surely the sim would be disappointing. However, if they're smart they'll finally make a clean sheet sim engine, though that won't bode well for compatibility.
I don't think they'll even release a release date before sometime next year, mid-year. (confused? ) And my best estimate for a full release is late 2011 early 2012
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 21207 times:
Quoting WNwatcher (Reply 12): Hopefully some of the late model addon A/C for FSX will be compatible with MS Flight, much in the same way most of the current addons from FS-9 are compatible with FSX
First FS9 addons and FSX addons have almost nothing in common. The basic model format of FS8 and FS9 is similar, a sequential desciption of the models in bgl like language that had been used for scenery already since FS5.
FSX uses a completely different, Direct X native data format.
The backwards compatibility is one of the biggest problems with FSX and its performance, especially when several legacy formats mix in one scene. So please, no real time backward compatibility again.
But, want I want to propse is an offline compatibility. MS, make a converter that transforms old formats into the new ones. Offline, such converters have all time of the universe to do this and make any possible optimization, and than make a slim engine that supports the highly optimzed formats only.
C From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 21203 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10): What worries me is the " and integrated content marketplace" - which means that add ons will only be possible through MS censorship and control.
That worries me too, especially the word "marketplace", which makes it sound like they're going to focus on payware add-ons only. If Microsoft doesn't allow freeware I expect Flight to fail spectacularly.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20890 times:
Well, there is yet another new video out, and IMO it's the same old same old half-assed effort all over again (truth be told, the final product may be very different).
I did notice however a few minor improvements, like the tree shadows on the plane itself, and even the prop creates it's own shadow on the airframe it seems.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 20792 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 18): truth be told, the final product may be very different
Doesn't look like a massive leap forward graphics-wise, but that's not a dealbreaker for me. I'd much rather have a big improvement in the way the ATC works and the way the weather is modeled than some extra shadows. And can we finally get some realistic ground handling (i.e proper friction in the tires)?
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20760 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 19): Doesn't look like a massive leap forward graphics-wise, but that's not a dealbreaker for me. I'd much rather have a big improvement in the way the ATC works and the way the weather is modeled than some extra shadows. And can we finally get some realistic ground handling (i.e proper friction in the tires)?
The big difference - the taxiways and runways don't flicker anymore!
I'd hope for some improvement in framerate performance, and ATC performance.
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 20747 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21): There's no such thing as a straight runway.
Good point - Rand Airport in South Africa. Then we can try and fly the B747 into there, like they did in real life!
But I'll settle for the easier big ticket items. FSX still mostly runs slow on my computer. I think a potent quad-core computer running at 2.93ghz with a powerful graphics card should be able to manage 50fps steady, and not drop to 8fps or less.
FS / Flight needs a big internal restructure to properly take advantage of modern computers.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 20734 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21): There's no such thing as a straight runway.
Oh yes there is. Go fly in Florida or the Midwest and you'll find them.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 11856 posts, RR: 67 Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 20947 times:
Having seen the latest from Microsoft's website, I have to say it - "I've got a bad feeling about this..."
Based on the advertising that over-talks and under-shows, I get the feeling they believe hardcore simmers will NOT be impressed. And as others have said, it definitely won't be a success if only a small percentage of today's hardware is capable of running it fluidly with sliders maxed, or at least mostly maxed.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 21232 times:
I personally have the impression that Flight will be more a series of games around a slight update to FSX, than a real new Flight Sim. Easy to make, fast to sell and to forget. There is nothing worde for a software publisher than a software that still is used after years...
If this means we get a SP3 for FSX, even if it costs, that would not be so bad...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 21180 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 25): May I remind you the world isn't flat
Fair enough, but when you can't see that effect most of the time, why bother trying to depict it in FS? Though it would be nice to have the capability to have gradients on runways where appropriate.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21161 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 27): I personally have the impression that Flight will be more a series of games around a slight update to FSX, than a real new Flight Sim. Easy to make, fast to sell and to forget. There is nothing worde for a software publisher than a software that still is used after years...
Agreed.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 27): If this means we get a SP3 for FSX, even if it costs, that would not be so bad...
It will be bad if they still plan on charging close to $50 or more they usually do.
Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
Fair enough, but when you can't see that effect most of the time, why bother trying to depict it in FS? Though it would be nice to have the capability to have gradients on runways where appropriate.
Of course. My thinking is that if X-plane and a myriad of other relatively low budget open source Flightsims can depict sloping runways, then the next MSFS may as well be able to, granted it would probably take a major redesign of the mesh engine.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 4 Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21091 times:
In my opinion it's still a toss up. At least we've seen a bit more of the graphics, and that seems to be on par.
Personally, I could settle for FS9/FSX style graphics, as long as the underlying engine was given a bit of a work-over. As others have mengined, sloping runways would be a big bonus, as would a greater degree of customization when it comes to options available on the ground. I posted this on AVSIM a while ago as well, but it bears repeating:
• Proper looking pushback procedure, or at least make it customizable. It still gets on my nerves, watching a 747 doing a 90 degree turn on a platter after being pushed straight back from the terminal.
• Better integration of parking procedures (ie. drive-through parking, taxi and turn parking)
• Allowing for stands with multiple parking locations, letting FS determine when to use one for a large aircraft or two side-by-side for smaller commuter types.
• Allowing AFCAD/ADE designers to designate a preferred taxi routing. Places like Mallorca drives me nuts, since the aircraft instead of following the outer, main taxiways, start taking shortcuts across the inner apron.
• Making ATC make less of a hash of cul-de-sacs. We've all been there, seeing 4-5 aircraft stuck on Taxi In to a cul-de-sac, because there's a single commuter jet going out from the same.
• Making the Flight Sim recognize when a runway is closed for takeoff or landing on one end only. This is pretty much my biggest pet peeve, since it completely screws up any airport with offset parallel runways (MAN & CPH are two glaring examples).
• And one really outrageous one, allowing users to design more complex approach ala the River visual into DCA, which can't be done with the current system.
My main interest in FS is the AI system, and this I would really love to see.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 21073 times:
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 30): Allowing AFCAD/ADE designers to designate a preferred taxi routing. Places like Mallorca drives me nuts, since the aircraft instead of following the outer, main taxiways, start taking shortcuts across the inner apron.
You are aware that you can steer this by adding more taxiway nodes? I would prefer to be able to declare taxi ways as one way. Not that my main interest isn't AI :lol:
JohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1280 posts, RR: 6 Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 21062 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SUPPORT
Quoting CPH-R" class="quote" target="_blank">CPH-R (Reply 30): • Making the Flight Sim recognize when a runway is closed for takeoff or landing on one end only. This is pretty much my biggest pet peeve, since it completely screws up any airport with offset parallel runways (MAN & CPH are two glaring examples).
Think that was possible in FS2002 but for some reason it's not possible in FS9. You can set the option, but nothing happens IIRC.
7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 20991 times:
So I just remembered something: after the ACES team was flushed down the toilet, MS kept the FS engine around for industrial/commercial/military applications. MS calls the engine Microsoft ESP. While it is little more than a glorified version of the FSX version, I think it's obvious the MS Flight will use the ESP engine, which may not be a totally bad thing, seeing as it meets the need of military and commercial fields.
I remember hearing about ESP project waaay back, and had long forgotten about it. But then I bumped into this article which goes into much more detail about this simulation engine:
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 20955 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 33): MS calls the engine Microsoft ESP. While it is little more than a glorified version of the FSX version, I think it's obvious the MS Flight will use the ESP engine, which may not be a totally bad thing, seeing as it meets the need of military and commercial fields.
C From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 20957 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 33):
Interestingly the ESP official website has been decommissioned
The reason for that is because Microsoft sold ESP to Lockheed-Martin late 2009.
Quote: "Lockheed Martin Prepar3D 1.0
In 2009, Lockheed Martin announced that they had negotiated with Microsoft to purchase the Intellectual Property (including source code) for the Microsoft ESP product. Microsoft ESP was the commercial-use version of Flight Simulator X SP2. On May 17, 2010,[7] Lockheed announces that the new product based upon the ESP source code is called "Prepar3D" (pronounced "Prepared"). The product is rebranded for Lockheed Martin and is backwards compatible with the previous Flight Simulator X SP2 and ESP v1.0 products. Lockheed have hired some members of the original ACES studio to continue development of the product. The product will be released later in 2010 for sale directly from the Prepar3D website. Potential users and developers are able to pre-register for evaluation versions."
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20934 times:
There are some interesting details there - especially online content market, does that sound familiar?
The old idea was that the two were supposed to support each other, but that obviously didn't happen. I only hope both Flight and Prepar3d are hugely improved from FSX SP2, because $500 is hugely expensive for what is derived from a legacy application.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20639 times:
Please review the following Youtube video. It's taking the recent Microsoft Webisode 2 & comparing to FS2004. Upper left corner is Microsoft Flight, and lower right corner is FS2004. Interesting differences IMO. Airport depicted appears to be Hilo, Hawaii.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 20630 times:
Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 37): Please review the following Youtube video. It's taking the recent Microsoft Webisode 2 & comparing to FS2004. Upper left corner is Microsoft Flight, and lower right corner is FS2004. Interesting differences IMO. Airport depicted appears to be Hilo, Hawaii.
Hmmm. That kinda puts things into perspective. I will say though, that FS2004 clip looks bone stock. The way I have FS2004 set up with mods it looks in some aspects much better than FSX. The one thing I didn't realize earlier is that it looks like FS11 has HDR lighting effects. That really improves visuals. But you can get it in FS2004 too
Airbalticfan From United States of America, joined May 2008, 253 posts, RR: 2 Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 20527 times:
Who really know what it is gonna be. It sounds more and more that we are starting to see very simple version of the game( not a Flight Sim), but yes game...if this is a case, I will be very disappointed.
We really need a new Flight Sim with graphics like FSX has and frame rates like FS9! Anything else in my opinion will be garbage! What use will be if the graphics will be awesome but anybody will be able to simply jump in and fly? It took me a long time to learn and perfect my flying using FSX and FS9, we need reality not looks!
ps.looks and reality ) That would be really nice! I just fear that it is not gonna happen in this case!
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 20506 times:
Quoting Airbalticfan (Reply 39): We really need a new Flight Sim with graphics like FSX has and frame rates like FS9! Anything else in my opinion will be garbage! What use will be if the graphics will be awesome but anybody will be able to simply jump in and fly? It took me a long time to learn and perfect my flying using FSX and FS9, we need reality not looks!
ps.looks and reality ) That would be really nice! I just fear that it is not gonna happen in this case!
I, for one, would welcome a business decision Microsoft is making here to make Microsoft Flight more appealing to the general public. After all, they need to make this franchise PROFITABLE so that they can continue to develop more versions in the future. While reality looks nice (X-Plane as an example), in the long-run it doesn't add to the market share Microsoft is hoping to gain. I'm not a X-Plane user, and nor will I be unless add-on developers begin adding to X-Plane, which I do not forsee happening on a large scale in the future.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20463 times:
MSFS never made any profit. We can estimate the amount of MS stuff on it, the fraction of the overhead like law department, sales department, administration inside MS, know approximately what the external data cost, and think to have an understanding of how many copies got sold, and from this I get the first sentence.
The best selling version ever was FS98, with more than 1 million copies sold. Still MS management wanted to end the title by then, and a now retired MS manger told me he heard with his own ears HIM saying (" I promised to Bruce we will continue to develop it, so we will do as long as I have something to say here"). HE left Microsoft in 2006.
airplaneaddict From United States of America, joined May 2010, 11 posts, RR: 5 Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20317 times:
I think MS flight could be a great seller if they can produce what there web casts show in game. I was once a Fan of MSFS but have moved onto x-plane which is so superior when it comes to the the flight model than Flight Sim x. I would easily make space for Flight if it is good as it is shown. I am looking forward to the release of it.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20322 times:
Quoting airplaneaddict (Reply 42): but have moved onto x-plane which is so superior when it comes to the the flight model than Flight Sim x
As a flight instructor I will say X-plane doesn't feel any more realistic to me than MSFS. In theory it should be, and yes it does feel different to FS9/X. But more real? No. An honest attempt, but no. However I do like how it does somewhat accurately simulate constant speed props, P-factor and Vmc rolls. That's a tiny edge it has over MSFS.
Short of a Level D sim, there ain't much you can do for reality.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 19379 times:
Small update from Microsoft addressing more concerns from the flight sim community dated December 8th, 2010:
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 19396 times:
Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 44): Small update from Microsoft addressing more concerns from the flight sim community dated December 8th, 2010:
I'll just go ahead and post it:
Quote:
Wednesday, December 8, 2010 — Welcome to News from the Development Team!
Welcome! We’ve created this section to provide news and updates direct from the Microsoft Flight development team. We’ve been getting all your emails and comments and are creating this central point of contact to respond to your questions. Currently, we’re still early in the development process, so there are many things not yet ready for detailed discussion. We’ll address what we can for now and will provide more in-depth information over time.
Since the very first introduction to Microsoft Flight at Gamescom back in August 2010, we’ve received a tremendous response from both new and longtime Flight Simulator fans. We truly appreciate the warm welcome back. For this inaugural “News from the Development Team” update, we want to give you some context for our new direction. For starters, we’re still some time away from launching the product — far enough out that we are currently unable to provide any details, such as the launch date. We apologize for any frustrations this may cause. We can’t wait, either, to deliver this new experience to all of you! We’re delighted to be able to provide a view into our game at such an early time and to share our progress as we get closer to finalizing the product. We’ve never reached out this early in the development cycle before, so hang in there, and we hope you enjoy the sneak peek.
A number of you have asked, “Why did you drop ‘Simulator’ from the title of the game?”
In addition to the FAQ on this topic, we want to directly address the concern that by dropping the “Simulator” from the name, we’re dumbing down the experience. Quite the contrary! We’ve developed on the “simulation” aspect for many years and have no intension of losing that legacy. What we’re doing now is improving the total experience while building on this legacy, enhancing the enjoyment for all who share a passion for flight. The more people who join us in the Flight experience, the greater the opportunity we’ll have to do even more.
Many of you are concerned that because we want to appeal to a wider audience, we must be building an arcade game.
We don’t need to create an arcade game to welcome a wider audience. But we do need to improve the total user experience if we’re to be successful in welcoming new audiences into the experience of Flight. The passion and fascination of flight is powerful, with so many different aspects to aviation and different levels of enjoyment to experience. There is distinct value and strength to be gained by welcoming a wider audience, and we can’t claim to have done the best job of it in the past.
What does appealing to a wider audience mean?
It means improving the user-interface experience, achieving better performance on today’s hardware, providing more focused challenges for people who aren’t quite sure what to do next, and introducing more persistent experiences for people who return often. It also means keeping alive the freedom to go where you want, when you want, and to do what you want. Regardless of their hardware power, piloting experience, or level of interest, many people have enjoyed the traditional flight-simulation experience as a solitary activity. We see a compelling social aspect to the experience inherent in the fun, and we need to better enable and support this dynamic to strengthen the entire Flight experience for everyone.
Based on the previous webisode, we’ve heard, “This doesn’t look any different from FSX!”
As we said in the introduction, we’re still early in the development cycle, so the fact that you comment on the similarity to FSX is great! This comment alone should ease some of the arcade concerns. Please follow along with our progress as we continue to release more webisodes, screenshots, and additional information. In the end, we hope that you’ll have a great time looking back at these early samples and being part of the evolution. Thank you for all your enthusiasm and support!
Overall, I'm a bit less uneasy since their first announcement. Sounds like they got TONS of flak from the hardcore fans for trying to "widen the audience", but it seems they got the message. Thing is, the average Joe has no clue that this program is in development, so they'll probably need to find lots of random Q&A people off the street, but us die hards don't give a damn about them right?
Also, from what it sounds like, they are extremely early in development, and I think it's safe to say the final product will look nothing like the teaser videos. Also, I am extremely intrigued where they say "achieving better performance on today's hardware". I sure hope this means a clean-sheet or highly optimized sim engine.
Also, if they're really that early in development, I don't think we'll see anything released before late 2012 in that case. The 2009-early 2011 time frame would have been an excellent time to release a sim, as hardware advances haven't been to substantial. However, around 2012 lots of new technology will become available. So hopefully they don't make the same mistake as with FSX, which was released at a terrible time just before significant hardware advances became mainstream (multiple cores, PCI-e, SATA, multiple video cards, etc etc).
At any rate, can't wait to see what they're cooking up. Seeing as they look to be taking user input much more seriously this time, I think this has strong potential for being the best FS version ever.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 19171 times:
As far as time frame, FSX was "unofficially" announced December 2005, with a formal announcement from Microsoft February 2006. Looking through the forum archives of that time frame (can't believe it's been that long already), it was scheduled to be released December 2006, although it was pushed back early to October 2006.
I'm unable to find the same info for FS2004's release, but I recall it being released during the summer of 2003, atypical of the fall releases for Flight Sim. I don't remember when it was formally announced.
We should expect a similar time frame development for Microsoft Flight- probably nothing until late 2011 at best.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18178 times:
Six new pictures added.
Comparison shots versus FSX can be found on AVSIM:
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 17157 times:
Yet more pictures are up:
Looks good so far, not sure I'm feeling wowed though. Granted it is a work in progress, but the one major flaw I see is that all the streams/creeks rivers seem to stand out waaay too much, specially during the sunset.
ash1111 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16974 times:
Pictures look great! Makes me regret my decision to switch to a Mac. :P I must admit, though, I feel this game will take a step away from a 'simulator', and focus more on graphics and multi-player tools.
Northwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 16332 times:
Quoting C (Reply 17): Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
What worries me is the " and integrated content marketplace" - which means that add ons will only be possible through MS censorship and control.
That worries me too, especially the word "marketplace", which makes it sound like they're going to focus on payware add-ons only. If Microsoft doesn't allow freeware I expect Flight to fail spectacularly.
Unfortunately, Microsoft is talking about an "app store" for the next version of Windows, (so I am sure they are going to do this with other products); almost sounds like Microsoft is trying to copy Apple.
QFKangaroo747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 116 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16120 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Thread starter): And the thing that worries me most, is the statement saying that it will "retain the full fidelity simulation long time fans have come to expect". I hope this won't mean, as with EVERY other FS release, that under the hood there will be little changes and the game engine will still be basically the same. It's time FS had a serious physics engine and higher fidelity of systems and what not.
At any rate, I hope they take their time with this, and don't rush it like with FSX, and make a proper simulator, more realistic, better graphics, yet without needing a supercomputer. That's a tough one to pull off.
I agree, I think that MSF reached a point around FS2004 where everything to come after it was essentially minor changes with the core game engine remaining unchanged. So with FSX, we had a couple new aircraft and some new scenery, but everything else remained the same - graphics, ATC, airports, etc. So it did indeed feel like FSX was a bit of a rushed job.
And yet, in saying that, there is a conundrum. FSX required, for the first time, players to have a DVD-rom drive, so there must have been some rather significant changes made - even if we don't really see and appreciate them? Furthermore, it is now well over four years since FSX was released, and it still pretty much sets the standard. So while I also would like to see the next release make some real true gains in terms of graphics, ATC, airports, etc, I do wonder if it just isn't possible yet. Of course, it is technologically possible, but I mean for the average person to run the software. You mention a supercomputer, and this is obviously something which the average individual doesn't posses.
So it's a really tough call. In any case, I look forward to "Microsoft Flight", but like yourself, the 'dumbing-down' prospect does make me nervous. In the meantime, I'm actually quite content with FSX, despite all my complaints
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4844 posts, RR: 45 Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15902 times:
Quoting QFKangaroo747 (Reply 55): FSX required, for the first time, players to have a DVD-rom drive, so there must have been some rather significant changes made - even if we don't really see and appreciate them?
FS2004 came on 4 CDs, which made installing a bit of a hassle. Back when it was launched, DVD drives were common, but quite a standard feature on all PCs, however by the time FSX shipped, even the cheapest of PC's had DVD drives as standard, making it finally possible to justify the switch without alienating too much of the market.
The FSX scenery is far more detailed than that of FS2004, so using CDs would not have been an option, as you would be looking at twice as many CDs to carry all the data.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15773 times:
Quoting QFKangaroo747 (Reply 55): but everything else remained the same - graphics, ATC, airports, etc. So it did indeed feel like FSX was a bit of a rushed job.
The graphics of FSX has absolutely nothing to do with FS8/9 type graphics, that part has been completely changed from descriptive graphics to object graphics. So rest you are right. The rushed job came from the fact that FSX was intended to be the big demonstrator for Direct X 10 - Vista got delayed, and FSX was not delayed the same time but had to be adapted to DX9/XP in the last months, then the ressources ro readapt it to DX10.0 ( which turned out to be buggy itself ) were too small.
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15761 times:
Quoting QFKangaroo747 (Reply 55): So with FSX, we had a couple new aircraft and some new scenery, but everything else remained the same - graphics, ATC, airports, etc. So it did indeed feel like FSX was a bit of a rushed job.
Listen to Burkhard above, he knows what he is talking about. He's a respected and very talented FS developer.
I desperately hope the new one will make good advantage of my computer hardware.
WNWatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15702 times:
Does anyone know why Microsoft is only showing one specific part of Hawaii? Even in the latest webisode, they still only showed maybe a single mile of the Hawaii scenery.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15692 times:
Quoting WNWatcher (Reply 60): Does anyone know why Microsoft is only showing one specific part of Hawaii?
Just a WAG, but If you think about it, Hawaii is perfect for testing scenery development, you have water, very mountainous areas, a large variety of land types (coastal, urban, jungle, high altitude vegetation, etc).
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15532 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 61): Just a WAG, but If you think about it, Hawaii is perfect for testing scenery development, you have water, very mountainous areas, a large variety of land types (coastal, urban, jungle, high altitude vegetation, etc).
correct. And it would explain why seasons are still so poor in FSX - you cannot add seasonal textures to objects.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13548 times:
Maybe this is asking for too much too early but I'd be more impressed if they revamped the lighting engine. So far it just looks like a slightly polished FSX but it's still missing that special something, stuff that even not too recent games have had for a few years already (HDR, spectral lighting, tessellation, colored shadows, cloud shadows, etc etc) I get the feeling they aren't using Directx 11 for these renders, or maybe the game engine still can't support DX11 at this point.
AirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 1726 posts, RR: 24 Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 13506 times:
I hope it's not going to be too much of an Arcade game, but it certainly looks good.
Also, I hope it's not going to require a monster of a computer that even an average computer 5 years from now, won't be able to run OK.
This is the case with FSX, which is why I am still sticking to FS9. My gfs MacBookPro with i5 processor can't even run FSX properly better than on low settings. I guess it's because of the MACs crappy graphics card though.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 13519 times:
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 65): Also, I hope it's not going to require a monster of a computer that even an average computer 5 years from now, won't be able to run OK.
I read an interview in which one of their team claims they do not intend it for a longer period to cover future computer develpments. I expect it to be more an Age of Empires style where they come out with a new game every 6 months, every game with a different set of missions and some free flight modus. If they would intend to go with the details they show in the Hawaii scenery world wide, they would need 100ds of DVD for the product, so I can imagine each of the versions to play in a limited area only, or at least to have the details and mission there and a level of detail not beyond FSX world wide.
united319 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 477 posts, RR: 0 Reply 69, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13267 times:
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 68): From what I read they are not allowing 3rd party developers to create add-ons for the game. You'll have to make do with the default stuff.
If that's true, I'm not buying it.
What a load of crap!!! I'm not buying it either if thats the case. The default planes/scenery are always sub par.
They should spend a lot more time on improving stability without comprimising graphics. You should not have to buy more RAM/Memory just to play.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 70, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13242 times:
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 68):
From what I read they are not allowing 3rd party developers to create add-ons for the game.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 71, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13259 times:
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 68):
From what I read they are not allowing 3rd party developers to create add-ons for the game. You'll have to make do with the default stuff.
Not a chance in hell. They're not THAT stupid, or are they?
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13230 times:
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 68): From what I read they are not allowing 3rd party developers to create add-ons for the game. You'll have to make do with the default stuff.
I have never heard of such a decision being made, Microsoft would not be that stupid....
source please.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 73, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13256 times:
Sorry I cannot give you sources, but I think it is fair to summarize the following:
Microsoft has stated that Flight will come with a built in market place. To what we know, only through this market place it will be possible/ allowed to add content. Microsoft has openly talked about how to open that market place for freeware as well as commercial addons, and there have been talks between some partners of the scene and MS management. Since all this is under NDA, and those MS speak with you can consider to be professionals, nothing more can be said.
Background is that Microsoft is shocked by the success of the Apps for iPad and Android, that Apple and Google have manage to control all software sales ( and cash from all software sales )for their platform, while MS sees no dime for application that run 99% in MS provided libraries ( .NET, DX,...) and just couple them with a hand full of instructions. MS has similar plans for future versions of Windows, and Flight might be the ideal little test game for that. So this has not much to do with flight simulation, this is a tiny test run in a very big overall race.
We do not know, if it will be impossible to add content from outside, or just not supported.
It may also be that in the end it is not a bad idea at all, to have addon checked and packed according to standards, all configuration issues in responsibility of MS and reaching every flight user, not only the about 10% of FSX users that form the current addon scene.
But it should be clear that Flight! is not Flight Simulator XI, it is something different, we only do not know what. The last version of Microsoft Flight Simulator will be FSX for years to come.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 74, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11187 times:
More Waikiki shots (Hilton Hawaiian Village, Sheraton, Royal Hawaiian), the Mauna Kea Observatory on the Big Island, and one unidentified night picture (#3) which I'm not sure is located in Hawaii.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8992 posts, RR: 45 Reply 75, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11057 times:
The eye-candy updates are all very interesting but, until we learn more about what it's going to be like as a flight simulator, I remain ambivalent. I'd pay a lot more for a better flight simulator framework than I'd pay for better scenery.
In principle, I've no reservations about the idea of an MS-controlled add-on market. A bigger concern might be the extra effort required by 3rd parties if the core of the new system is radically different from FSX. Perhaps Flight will be good enough to compensate for any delay in 3rd party add-ons, perhaps it won't. I still have no idea.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 76, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11011 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 75):
In principle, I've no reservations about the idea of an MS-controlled add-on market. A bigger concern might be the extra effort required by 3rd parties if the core of the new system is radically different from FSX. Perhaps Flight will be good enough to compensate for any delay in 3rd party add-ons, perhaps it won't. I still have no idea.
I'm still pretty skeptical overall. And honestly I'm not overly impressed with what I've seen so far. The graphics look like little more than slightly higher resolution textures with a better lighting engine than FSX. That's about it. No word on what flight dynamics will be like, no panels, etc etc. Of course it may be too soon.
I for one would like to see better simulation of aircraft systems at the core. No version of FS properly simulates constant-speed props, for example. X-plane does however.
WNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8353 times:
Well Guys... Microsoft has released a new press release/screenshot bundle... and I can say that I have the feeling that Flight will be Hawaii only :/
"January 4th, 2012 – Microsoft Flight Takes to the Skies
Today, Microsoft Studios premiered Microsoft Flight, a PC game that lets players jump into the challenge, fun, and freedom of flight. Microsoft Flight will be available as a free download this spring, giving players the freedom to fly the skies over the beautiful Big Island of Hawaii, complete a variety of exciting missions, test their skills in flying challenges, or find hidden aerocaches on the island.
In Microsoft Flight, players view the world from above in a visually stunning and realistic representation of the earth, complete with region-specific weather patterns, foliage, terrain and landmarks. Players can choose to take the helm using highly rendered, accurate cockpits and authentic piloting procedures, or simply use their mouse and keyboard to control the plane in an exterior view. More experienced players can tailor the flight controls to match their skill level, making Microsoft Flight easy for beginners while still challenging for the most accomplished PC pilots.
“Many people dream of flying, but few have the chance to experience the fun of exploring the world from above. Microsoft Flight provides players the opportunity to explore that curiosity and interest,” said Joshua Howard, executive producer of Microsoft Flight. “Aviation can be incredibly technical, but we’ve taken great care to build an experience that makes taking to the skies thrilling and accessible for everyone.”
Start Exploring For Free
After downloading Microsoft Flight for free, players can jump into hours of exciting gameplay on the Big Island of Hawaii.
In addition, players who sign in to their Games for Windows – LIVE account automatically receive additional free content, including the legendary Boeing Stearman plane, supplementary missions, and access to Achievements and an Online Pilot Profile. Those looking to deepen their experience can purchase and download additional content that adds new aircraft, regions and customization options. The frequently released new content for Microsoft Flight includes daily aerocache challenges and updates that make every flight unique and fun.
Be the First to Fly the Definitive Light Sport Aircraft ICON A5
Microsoft Studios worked with the personal airplane manufacturing team at ICON Aircraft to give aviation fans the exclusive opportunity to fly the all-new ICON A5 before real-world production starts at the end of 2012. Designed by the world-class aeronautical engineers behind the Voyager spaceship, X-Prize winning SpaceShipOne, and Virgin Galatic’s SpaceShipTwo, the ICON A5 is the “jet ski for the skies,” a high-wing amphibious monoplane with a carbon fiber airframe and a comfortable, automobile-inspired cockpit with space for two. The ICON A5 will be the first aircraft available to players for free in Microsoft Flight.
“ICON Aircraft and Microsoft Flight both share the goal of making the fun of flying accessible to everyone who’s ever dreamed about it. ICON does this by fusing world-class product design with the very best engineering, and Microsoft by combining the excitement of a great gaming experience with the authenticity of a top notch flight simulator,” said ICON Aircraft CEO Kirk Hawkins."
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 4 Reply 78, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8328 times:
RIP the MSFS franchise then.
They might get the the odd sale here and there, but the existing MSFS community will balk at this blatant money grab, and stick with FS9 and FSX as long as there are developers working on those two. In the long run, Prepar3d might win over some users.
Quoting WNwatcher (Reply 77): Well Guys... Microsoft has released a new press release/screenshot bundle... and I can say that I have the feeling that Flight will be Hawaii only :/
It gets worse, Flyawaysimulation did a behind the scenes look, and some of the stuff they're reporting ain't pretty:
Quote: At launch, not everyone will have the opportunity to fly where they are. The team has decided to not try and make the whole world this time. They feel that doing smaller areas at greater quality is more worth while. As such, the current game world is just the Island of Hawaii. The old audience may be frustrated that it’s not built with everything, but it is built for everyone.
Quote: The game will feature it’s own marketplace, with content regulated by Microsoft. There will be no scenery development kit and hence no user created content.
WNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 80, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8298 times:
Looks like any Airline ops for Flight will be limited to something similar to Aloha. I do like how Fly Away kind of told us how to spur Microsoft into developing the rest of the world...
"Fuel does serve another purpose though, in this case. Because the geography is an island, but the game is still technically built on a globe, fuel prevents players from flying to the edge because they would run out of fuel before they got there. Technically, there isn’t an edge. But if Microsoft see that a lot of players are flying that far out and logging off, they will consider putting something there if they feel that’s what players want."
It'll be interesting to see how long it takes Microsoft to get the new areas out.... and how much the whole world will eventually cost.
Airbalticfan From United States of America, joined May 2008, 253 posts, RR: 2 Reply 81, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8260 times:
Come on guys! With this announcement it is clear that we, the true flight simmers, got a slap in a face from Microsoft, so I will stick with FS9 or FSX and will not even waste my PC's disk space to try out this Arcade BS kids game!
From now on I will ignore any post about this garbage product and will not waste my time as this is a major dissapointement!
Shame on you MIcrosoft!
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 82, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8207 times:
Wow....shocking.
I tried to be positive; offered encouragement and full support of Microsoft's efforts to combat piracy, but in their efforts, Microsoft has effectively killed freeware.
hnl2bos From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 16 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8202 times:
I'm still confused, the Microsoft website still mentions in their FAQ that Flight "retains the full fidelity simulation." So is it still a simulator with a game mode attached?
As for the add-ons I assume that it'll be like app stores. You have to submit your add-on the Microsoft for approval and for a piece of the $$$. So I gather there will still be add-ons. I have read though this new model has already scared off developers.
phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 84, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8197 times:
Quoting hnl2bos (Reply 83): I'm still confused, the Microsoft website still mentions in their FAQ that Flight "retains the full fidelity simulation." So is it still a simulator with a game mode attached?
Oh it does alright. So long as you don't mind flying from HNL to OGG or any route within Hawaii for that matter.
Gingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 85, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8186 times:
FSX it shall remain then for the foreseeable future. Alas there is a lot you can still do with that engine, as shown with some of the latest addons available.
That being said, I have been accepted onto the BETA waiting list. I only want to test it out to see exactly how it runs, but I somehow don't think I'll be purchasing this one.
I assume that regions of map will be purchasable through their store. I just dont get where this is going with the recent trailer they released. It seems its a game, but when I read their FAQ it makes it seem it will still be a full fledged (well as full fledged as FSX was) sim.
Northwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 88, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8001 times:
That's what you get when you kill your division in charge of games, realize it was stupid, and try to hire less-talented people to re-develop what you lost.
Microsoft is quickly loosing ground in every tech field they operate in; they used to innovate, now they imitate. Go figure.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 89, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7936 times:
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 78): There will be no scenery development kit and hence no user created content.
Yeah....no....
Well, at least it's free. But they're not getting a penny from me until they put out something resembling FSX. Whole world, both freeware and payware aircraft, etc. And yes, I do realize that might never happen. In which case they're never getting a penny from me.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Air77 From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 16 posts, RR: 0 Reply 91, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7850 times:
While I bought FSX when it first came out, I only ran it for a short while after it became quickly apparent that my computer at the time was not going to run it properly. I went back to FS9 and played that until about eight months ago when the computer finally kicked the bucket. I have been sitting on the fence since then, waiting to see what Flight would have to offer. I have never been a "hard core" flight simmer. After seeing this I think I will be buying a Mac, and running X Plane 10.
Why not get a cheaper windows machine which will be more powerful anyway and run both FSX and xplane?
PMDG wrote a long statement about what MS did to them and want MS wanted former them. Flight is not for us, anyone who enjoys a PMDG plane or flying for their VA will not want flight plain and simple.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 94, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7695 times:
Quoting Air77 (Reply 91): After seeing this I think I will be buying a Mac, and running X Plane 10.
You could also get a Windows machine capable of running FSX. The price for such a machine will be much lower now than it was a few years ago.
Quoting flymia (Reply 93): PMDG wrote a long statement about what MS did to them and want MS wanted former them. Flight is not for us, anyone who enjoys a PMDG plane or flying for their VA will not want flight plain and simple.
Any link?
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
ElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 435 posts, RR: 6 Reply 95, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7680 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 93):
PMDG wrote a long statement about what MS did to them and want MS wanted former them. Flight is not for us, anyone who enjoys a PMDG plane or flying for their VA will not want flight plain and simple.
With the introduction of Flight, the future of MS Flight Simulator looks bleak. Interesting that PMDG is looking into developing for X Plane. I don't know much about X Plane, but I haven't heard anything bad, and there are a few interesting add-ons currently available.
For us flight simmers I think it will be a few more years until we have something to replace FSX. PMDG is looking at xplane but xplane has its limitations also. I think most developers will continue with FSX for a bit. I do think xplane is probably the future for simmers but things like limiting ai to 20 planes max etc wil have to go. For now I will enjoy FSX and some of the great planes like the NGX
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 97, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7620 times:
Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 95): With the introduction of Flight, the future of MS Flight Simulator looks bleak.
I wouldn't necessarily say that. FSX is still a very capable platform (in fact, now that the average new computer has a realistic chance of running it properly, it's arguably an even more capable platform now than when it came out). I believe the add-on market can take care of most needs while staying with FSX. So it'll be around for a while.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
MSFS is very well alive. MSFS is FSX10 for the majoity, FS9 for a minority and Prepar3D for a tiny group of enthusisast/ semi professionals/ real professionals.
We just have to understand that Microsoft Flight! is not MSFS 11. One day Microsoft may use what they created for flight for MSFS11. Flight! is a nice appetizer for Flight Simulation. I hope it succeeds as such. I hope Microsoft can attract 50 Mio users due to the freeware nature, and sell many small addons to keep the group alive - and millions of these users want at some day the full instead of the game and go to the real flight simulators.
FS Flight is different to FS9 and FSX. I am beta tester and have it here at home and used it couple of times.
I cannot really say much about it, had to agree to the strict policy there
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8462 posts, RR: 40 Reply 100, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7470 times:
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 99): FS Flight is different to FS9 and FSX. I am beta tester and have it here at home and used it couple of times.
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 99): I cannot really say much about it, had to agree to the strict policy there
Hope I don't land you in trouble, wilco737 - but, since I expect that you are an 'FS addict' like the rest of us, only having used FS Flight 'a couple of times' appears to say it all.........
I've had a look at it too. Has no attraction at all to me, in its present form.....
[Edited 2012-01-09 04:44:11]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
wilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 7997 posts, RR: 84 Reply 101, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7460 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 100): Hope I don't land you in trouble, wilco737 - but, since I expect that you are an 'FS addict' like the rest of us, only having used FS Flight 'a couple of times' appears to say it all.........
no, you got me wrong here. I only have it 2 or 3 days now and I have trouble signing in with my windows live ID, so I cannot use all the features yet...
My time where I used FS every day are over I am still on FS9, I bought the FSX, tried it and didn't like it too much. I guess I will stick to FS9 for quite some time.
Once I have discovered all the features of FS Flight, I will see if it is something for me or not.
Northwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 104, posted (4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7614 times:
I talked to a buddy of mine that is beta testing Flight! and also works for Microsoft.
Right out of the box, MS will only offer a small land area (currently, Hawaii) and the user will have to buy more scenery/area for a nominal cost through a "Windows Live app store" of some sort. It is also going to be closed-sourced if you will; gone will be the days of going to flightsim.com and downloading freeware aircraft and scenery. Anything you add will be through this app store.
In addition, right out of the box, you cannot just hop into an airplane and fly it whenever, wherever...Flight! is now more of an X-Box game. You start with a choice between the Icon A5 and Stearman, and you must do flight training courses/challenges in order to "unlock" more aircraft (such as the C172, etc).
Graphics are supposed to be incredible, but by the talk of it, it sounds less and less appealing by the day. Seems to appeal more and more to the masses then the people like us, diehard flight simmers and actual pilots.
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7547 times:
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 105): You mean the fact that Microsoft forced the removal of the video?
thank god i downloaded these videos to my hard drive using keepvid before they were deleted...
Well in any case its better that the videos are gone, if you saw what I saw you probably would have injured your fist after having slammed it through the computer screen in sheer rage, that's how FUBAR Flight is....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
johnkrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1280 posts, RR: 6 Reply 107, posted (4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7451 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SUPPORT
Flying around Hawaii for days is not something I feel like doing, and until we see what a "nominal" fee actually is I think I will pass. But if all freeware is available through the app store, and get thoroughly tested prior to release I think there is a point. How many of us has downloaded stuff from Avsim/Flightsim that causes CTD's? I've had to reinstall FS more than once due to incompatibility.
But, personally I think it looks good, and I don't really see what's so "Game" about the appearance? It's FS with a fancier GUI...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 108, posted (4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7391 times:
Quoting johnkrist (Reply 107): But if all freeware is available through the app store, and get thoroughly tested prior to release I think there is a point.
This won't happen, much as it would be nice. MS won't put in the man-hours required to test software without attaching some price tag to it.
-Mir
[Edited 2012-01-10 19:27:25]
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 109, posted (4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7367 times:
I think we are not allowed to say if we are beta testers if we take serious what we might have signed.
This said, Microsoft Flight! to all we know isn't Flight Simulator 11. It is a game containing elements of flight simulation. I do not expect anybody who now is in the FS9 camp or FSX camp to uninstall the sim and go to the game completely. Most of us will play around with the game, and than go back to real.
Flight! is there to attract the masses, due to its game character, and due to its unbeatable price as a game. I never have seen a freeware of that quality, as far as I can judge from what I might know.
Microsoft must make money with Flight!. If this is through extensions of it, they cannot allow freeware. Those of us who know the size of the addon market for FSX and FS9 will doubt their model works out. The best thing that can happen to them is that most people realize that they can get a real sim with all world covered in stunning detail for €30 now named Flight Simulator X Gold.
I read they said there will be no SDK for flight. This makes sense if they do not want to add freeware, and not contact the small designers. They will go and contact the large companies, Flight1, PMDG failed as I read, maybe Aerosoft, and give them a way to add content to the market place. Since that is where MS gets its money from, they must keep a good margin for themselves, I expect they think of 50% ( which is a usual fraction in the boxed market).
Flight itself could be developped by a rather small core group, it did not require world wide data sets nor all the work needed to convert such data into scenery, something XPlane 10 completely missed so that wherever I look their scenery is just plain wrong.
So I estimate the costs to bring Flight! out to be around 50 man years only = 5 Mio $.
Now let the nominal fee be 10$ for an addon, they need to sell one million addons to get the money back and start to make a profit. Can they achieve this?
In such a scheme does it make sense for the addon producers? Production costs of modern scenery software are high - a photo scenery of Germany with detailed autogen I know to be an investment of several hundred thousand $. With the above numbers, it must be sold 100 000 times to make sense, or 10 000 times in small fragments, before the developer gets a cent. Is this realistic?
I wonder about the economics of Flight! But if it leads to 300 000 new sales of FSX, MS gets its money back too, and we all can be happy. Flight isn't Microsoft Flight Simulator 11. It does not replace FSX.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 110, posted (4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7361 times:
That will be an interesting PRspeak way to find out if someone is a betatester no/I can not confirm nor deny
That reminds me of certain spokesman for a central european airliNE
anyway interesting thoughts you have there about PMDG et al. There is a statement from PMDG on their support forums, and it is not particularly friendly to the MS folks. Add to that Aerosoft openly goes XPL10... I dont think any of the big names will develop for Flight any soon.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
WNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7297 times:
Quoting Airbalticfan (Reply 112): See garbage and experience crap! Job well done Microsoft!
You forget, Flight is not MSFS11, it's not meant to be the replacement for FSX. Granted, I still prefer FSX for more realistic simulation, but I feel that Flight will be the future for Microsoft to keep the series alive. It's simple Maths... With FSX, those of us who are hard core simmers buy 1, maybe 2 copies of FSX (if you loose your original discs like me). After that, Microsoft sees no more revenue. Microsoft is just doing what they have to do to keep the simulators coming. Arcade as Flight may be, I would not be surprised to see MSFS11 coming soon after Flight is established. Without the new $$ coming in, the series as a whole will die. I would not be surprised to see Freeware still available. Without giving away too much, I will say this. Do not write off Flight until you have tried the released product at least once. It's already been announced that it will be freeware and the beauty of that is, if you don't like it, you just delete it off your computer. You aren't out any money and you can feel satisfied knowing that you've given it a try and it just wasn't for you.
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1069 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (4 months 8 hours ago) and read 6916 times:
No AI? No 3rd party developement (which are basicly what makes all the Flight simulation games what they are). No AIRLINERS??? A stupid windows live account... whats the point in this game? Attract a few gamers on xbox who will get bored of it after a couple of days? I predict a resounding failure on the horizon.
I was waiting around for this game after I purchased a new pc but now its made me step up my addons to FSX.. in this day and age more affordable PC's are out that make FSX a very worthy game.
WNwatcher From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 270 posts, RR: 0 Reply 115, posted (4 months 5 hours ago) and read 6903 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 114): No AI? No 3rd party developement (which are basicly what makes all the Flight simulation games what they are). No AIRLINERS???
Microsoft hasn't announced any of that. The game is still in early Beta, which means the main thing that is being tested is the game engine. As far as 3rd Party developers, I firmly believe that we will see them on the marketplace, as Microsoft has announced that the SDK is available for those who wish to use it.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 116, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6680 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 114): I was waiting around for this game after I purchased a new pc but now its made me step up my addons to FSX.. in this day and age more affordable PC's are out that make FSX a very worthy game.
So the basic expectation that Flight! will serve to boost FSX already works. When I first heared the name Flight! it was clear for me that this is not Flight Simulator 11, so I was not waiting for it.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 117, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6335 times:
There's already hundreds of (unauthorized) videos out there on Flight. So for those of you wondering just google around and see for yourselves.
Otherwise for those of you that obviously can't be bothered to read the posts, here's my advice for you coming from"personal experience":
This ain't FS11. However, the game engine could be used for FS11 IF they ever revive the series , and that would be a very good thing, but that's all I can say for now.
I will say though X-plane 10 looks somewhat promising. I downloaded the demo and at equal scenery setting for XP9, XP10 had slightly better graphics quality and a bit better performance. However it has plenty of flaws. For one, I find it extremely idiotic how whole CPU cores are used to control single AI planes. What a waste of processing power! I don't care if the AI planes are pushing the limits of their CL or any other technical stuff. All they need to do is take off and land and behave close to real traffic.That's easier said than done but IMO using flight models with the same fidelity as the user's plane is overkill and completely unnecessary.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 4 Reply 123, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5266 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 109): I read they said there will be no SDK for flight. This makes sense if they do not want to add freeware, and not contact the small designers. They will go and contact the large companies, Flight1, PMDG failed as I read, maybe Aerosoft, and give them a way to add content to the market place. Since that is where MS gets its money from, they must keep a good margin for themselves, I expect they think of 50% ( which is a usual fraction in the boxed market).
Reading the AVSIM forums, I was under the impression that they had held talks with the likes of Orbx and other well known developers, and had been unable to reach a deal. Primarily because the developers would not have been able to make ends meet,given the slice that MS was looking to take from every transaction.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 124, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5288 times:
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 123): given the slice that MS was looking to take from every transaction.
This I'm afraid could be the final nail in MSFS's coffin. I really think MS is overestimating the appeal of the flight simu... I'm sorry, GAME (because that's what flight is) to the general masses. Let's be honest, people nowadays really don't give a damn about airplanes. And when you say "airplane" the first thing that comes to their minds is a body cavity search courtesy of the TSA and "evil" airline employees.
Just now it looks like MS finally realized the millions of dollars to be found in the add-on business for FS. And of course they want to get a slice of that. But they are being way too greedy about it and are shooting themselves in the foot by making demands to 3rd party developers. Flight will never take off the way they want it to. It's too boring for the average Joe and they have completely alienated long time users.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 125, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5224 times:
Millions of dollars in the addon buisiness is the biggest joke I ever heared.
Microsoft wnats to do what Apple and Google male in their App Stores. App developeres get about half a cent per copy sold. Typical Apps are an hour or two of work. Problem with those addon we know for FSX is making them is far more complex and demanding than the iPad OS or Android itself. If Flight! would ever have AI traffic, you would have to purchase every paint extra.
cc2314 From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 140 posts, RR: 0 Reply 126, posted (2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5195 times:
This sounds like a nightmare of a mess.Well at least there is no suspense i can merrily go back to flying my wilco737 in fs9 with a million addons that i have.
mmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 417 posts, RR: 8 Reply 129, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5067 times:
Well guys...look on the bright side.
Atleast now you won't have to build a computer for an unknown benchmark... You already own FSX...lol
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 130, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4850 times:
Quoting mmedford (Reply 129): Atleast now you won't have to build a computer for an unknown benchmark... You already own FSX...lol
And more and more computers can handle FSX... Of course my computer that can handle FSX best will never be connected to the internet and have any Live site looking what I have there on disk - if there is no way to play Flight! offline I have to pass this one too and can happily concentrate on FSX and P3D. Good times ahead.
wilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 7997 posts, RR: 84 Reply 132, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4502 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 131): It's available for download now, and I will install it to see what it's all about
I have my doubts but need to try to have an oppinion...
Harmonium From Denmark, joined Feb 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0 Reply 133, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4482 times:
Am I the only one having troubles launching the game? I downloaded and installed it perfectly fine, but when I start the game, after the splash screen when it seems to be heading for the actual game, it crashes to desktop.
Anyone tried and fixed this? Or just anyone else experiencing this? My computer should be capable of running the game.
mdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 265 posts, RR: 0 Reply 134, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4435 times:
I am just reading from another website with users citing very positive feedback at least on one thing - the performance is allegedly very good. The graphic qualities are amazing and the frame rate are much greater than FSX. I hope you guys can try it and see if you get the same.
I have no plan to install FLight on my computer as my computer can't even cope with FSX, besides I 'very rarely' fly to Hawaii and have no plan to soon. There is also no AI which for me is a showstopper.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 135, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4440 times:
Well now that the beta is officially over I can divulge some more...For what its worth, I uninstalled the beta almost immediately after flying for a few hours a while back after feeling insulted at how much they dumbed it down, but I'll try it again to see if they made any worthwhile changes.
I wouldn't go that far. It's an improvement over FSX for sure, but far from amazing IMO. However....
Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 134): and the frame rate are much greater than FSX.
Very true. Seems like for the first time ever they actually did a major rework of the game engine, and the performance is outstanding. I'm hitting 60FPS fully maxed out.
I don't like how they have extremely limited graphics settings, there's not much room for tweaking and customizing, unless they changed it on the full release now.
If you read the comments on their website apparently a few average joes seem to love it, but they're getting significant hate from former FS users. Frankly I don't think they will have enough average joes interested to make enough of an impact as the previous FS versions did.
q120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 227 posts, RR: 0 Reply 136, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4413 times:
Hi everyone,
I finally played FS Flight last night.
It is very different than any FS before it.
I am not impressed with anything the game has to offer.
Graphics are meh, FPS are meh, aircraft (1 type) to choose from unless you play on LIVE.
Overall, meh.
back to the buggy FSX.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 138, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4270 times:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 137): I really like the realistically slopped runways in the beta.
Huh? They were flatter than pancakes. At least all the paved ones were. I did not see single sloping runway. It was the same old same old typical impossibly flat FS runways of yore everywhere I went.
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 140, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3896 times:
So basically its a modern version of Flight Unlimited 3, an sim that came out back in in 1998
Even that game was better that what Flight is today. Not only was the scenery and features like AI traffic and ATC light years ahead of anything that Microsoft was making at the time it had a larger area for you to fly in and had a freaking jet included in the basic package.
Longhornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2916 posts, RR: 51 Reply 142, posted (2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3754 times:
Once upon a time, I was as adamantly against Flight as many of y'all were. And the truth is, as it stands, Flight isn't going to be able to do what we want.
With that said, Microsoft is onto something. Their ability to make it work remains to be seen. But let's be honest with ourselves for a second.
-How many of you regularly use the absolute rubbish ATC for anything other than radio chatter? If you're wanting to fly realistically, the FS9 or FSX ATC add almost nothing to the realism.
-How many of you are still flying around with AI like Landmark, Soar, Pacifica, and World Travel? These are no more real than having nothing. They don't fly real routes, they hog the airspace, the entire AI engine is super cluttered.
So what incentive does Microsoft have to include these features, when someone else could surely do it better?
We know as well as anyone how big the "simulator" culture is with the FS series. And how many of us are using the Microsoft-included products? Surely no one using the default 777-300 to fly anywhere long haul. Surely you'd rather have a more true-to-life AI.
Give it time. There are lots of people like us who want these features. We are the demographic that has kept this franchise afloat.
Honestly, I'd rather Microsoft spend resources to create a fully open-source platform where trusted developers can make the game what they way, rather than have Microsoft take an initial stab at it that will be overlooked by the majority of us serious simmers anyway.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 143, posted (2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3703 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 142): Honestly, I'd rather Microsoft spend resources to create a fully open-source platform where trusted developers can make the game what they way, rather than have Microsoft take an initial stab at it that will be overlooked by the majority of us serious simmers anyway.
The question is, are they doing that?
All signs point to a big NO.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 144, posted (2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 142): Honestly, I'd rather Microsoft spend resources to create a fully open-source platform where trusted developers can make the game what they way, rather than have Microsoft take an initial stab at it that will be overlooked by the majority of us serious simmers anyway.
Except that Flight is cut from the same mold as Apple's App Store - everything that's going to be an add-on is going to have to be signed off on by MS, and MS will want a cut of whatever profits are produced. Doesn't sound very open-source to me.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1069 posts, RR: 0 Reply 145, posted (2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3635 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 144):
Except that Flight is cut from the same mold as Apple's App Store - everything that's going to be an add-on is going to have to be signed off on by MS, and MS will want a cut of whatever profits are produced. Doesn't sound very open-source to me.
-Mir
Indeed.. tis all about the money. The only thing Flight offers is nice scenery but since it is limited to a minute place on the planet and you have to pay anytime you want a new area to visit (If they ever even create the area you want to fly in) it means $$$$ and that says it all. To be honest the scenery isnt even anything that groundbreaking for 2012.. It couldnt keep me interested for more then 15 mins. Would have more fun flying planes on Battlefield 3 and it isnt even a flight simulation game.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 146, posted (2 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3333 times:
Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 134): am just reading from another website with users citing very positive feedback at least on one thing - the performance is allegedly very good.
How - If I switch off AI traffic in FSX, I have 100 fps++ in that lonely area on my office system. And the scenery in flight contains out of almost nothing on a small island in the middle of nothing.
But Flight! is the best freeware I ever saw. If it would run on offline systems I might even use it...
ZKNCL From New Zealand, joined Oct 2010, 246 posts, RR: 0 Reply 147, posted (2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3275 times:
Oh my. This game is the pure definition of shocking- all it does is wastes space and is a overall tradgety in Flight Simulation History. No ATC, Proper Controls, AI, Jets and just has a poor framerate, misleading graphics, misleading advertising, some small prop aircraft and a good online feature. Back to FS2004 for me.
Longhornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2916 posts, RR: 51 Reply 148, posted (1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
Here is a link to an AVSIM interview with one of the developers:
-expects 3rd party support to ramp up, but that's on the scale of months to years, not weeks (focus is on building products in house for the time being).
-Product has surpassed expectations in terms of downloads.
-Building a full world experience a la FS9/FSX is not currently a priority. While vocal, the people that get pleasure out of flying long haul flights is still a small minority.
-Severing ties with 3rd party developers was a difficult decision based on all the cooperation over the years, but they felt needed to be done because Flight is fundamentally a different experience.
-Expect about 1 new airplane a month, and 3-4 new locations a year.
-"Simulation is a critical aspect of what we're trying to do." Acknowledges that the majesty of flight can't be achieved by an arcade game.
*shrugs* I think Microsoft were pretty clear from the get go that Flight was going to be a complete departure from what ACES had built. To that end, no one really has the right to be disappointed. It's a different experience altogether, focused more on the romance of flight than the form and function. I can understand why this appeals to a larger base, and it doesn't surprise me that their numbers reflect that. In the interim, it's certainly a kick in the gut to those that have most religiously followed Microsoft's flight simulators (lower case), since they've deconstructed everything that had been built and started over.
I do believe that 3rd party developers will play a role in the expansion of Flight, but it does make one wonder: when? And by that point, will Flight not already be an "old" piece of technology?
If you do want to continue playing airline pilot, Flight won't be for you any time soon. That's fine, I'm more than happy with my FS9 set up.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 4 Reply 149, posted (1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2803 times:
One of the Orbx developers made a post on AVSIM, shortly after the NDA had been lifted, where he painted quite the different picture from what MS said about 3rd party developer support.
Namely that due the marketplace-like approach adopted by MS, 3rd party developers simply wouldn't be able to make ends meet.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4434 posts, RR: 34 Reply 150, posted (1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2598 times:
Well, I guess our hopes in the flight sim world now lie in the hands of X plane. I have played X a little, but does not have the ai like flight simulator has. Does anyone know if X Plane will deepen what Microsoft dropped to the side? I think X Plane has a heck of an advantage now, and should jump on it.
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2505 posts, RR: 0 Reply 151, posted (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2401 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 150): Well, I guess our hopes in the flight sim world now lie in the hands of X plane
Flight sim x is still light years ahead of x plane. Never liked it anyway. I guess it is like a Mac vs PC debate. BTW has anybody tried out aerofly fs ?
Gingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 152, posted (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
Prepar3D is the future of Flight Simming. It is backwards compatible with all FSX addons, and they have just released a consumer version for around $50. They have improved the look, reduces the amount of bugs and I hear it runs a lot better than FSX does also.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 153, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2396 times:
That is not a consumer version, that is an academic version. You should not consider it a general consumer version just because LM "forgot" to ask you if you were student.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 154, posted (1 month 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
True, but the lowered price of $199 for the full version, the 10$/month developer subscription and the very cheap academic version together bundle it to something that lets me underline:
Prepar3D is the future of Flight Simming.
I almost missed the information that LM has released Prepare3D version 1.3 a few days ago.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7434 posts, RR: 35 Reply 155, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2127 times:
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 148): While vocal, the people that get pleasure out of flying long haul flights is still a small minority.
I could give a crap about flying long haul. How am I supposed to use it as a training tool to practice approaches in New England if Hawaii is the only location? Fail.
If God meant man to fly, He'd have given us bigger wallets.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 156, posted (1 month 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1783 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 155): I could give a crap about flying long haul. How am I supposed to use it as a training tool to practice approaches in New England if Hawaii is the only location? Fail.
You are supposed to purchase the New England scenery from Microsoft once it appears. I hope for Microsoft and the people there involved that this will happen.
Why, they have lowered the price for the full version significantly and have enough alternatives as licensing so that every simmer who uses the sim more than 10 hours a month gets a phantastic return of investement.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 159, posted (4 weeks 1 day 7 hours 10 minutes ago) and read 1449 times:
Burkhard: the main issue is not price, as many a serious simmer wastes more than 200 dollars for add-ons every couple months, but EULA, that does not permit Prepar3D being used for entertainment. While you can loophole around that (especially if your aim really is training for approaches in New England), it does open a can of worms for others, like addon software developers - the likes of PMDG have their reasons for only allowing their products for entertainment use - and lawyer time is not cheap.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 160, posted (4 weeks 6 hours 4 minutes ago) and read 1368 times:
My understanding of entertainment is that the fun of it more important than the realism, so an entertainment product has in the majority of cases sacrified any realism for the fun element. I'm not aware of many FSX addons in the upper half of the quality that comes near to it. Flying a realistic aircraft, and I would say this start with the stock MS aircraft if you havent realism to ultra low, is in no way entertainment, the best word I know for it is edutainment wich is a an educational target achieved with some game like elements.
http://www.prepar3d.com/prepar3d-license-comparison/ listes "private pilot use" as one of the usages covered by the full license, so I do not think this is a real issue, maybe it was in the beginning when things weren't as clear.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5576 posts, RR: 4 Reply 161, posted (3 weeks 6 days 12 hours 10 minutes ago) and read 1311 times:
How on earth can they detect if you're using P3d for 'entertainment' purposes or not? Will you be required to hook up a webcam, and the instant a smile is detected, the sim shuts down?
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 162, posted (3 weeks 6 days 8 hours 52 minutes ago) and read 1300 times:
See it the other way. Prepar3D has licensed the code - but Microsoft wants to continue to sell FSX and addons for Flight!. That is the reason why LM is slightly limited. Now Microsoft has shown what they consider as entertainment, and that is Flight! Everything that has to do with realistic training of skills, understanding of socio-economic or environmental context is education and no entertainment.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 163, posted (3 weeks 6 days 8 hours 29 minutes ago) and read 1300 times:
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 161): How on earth can they detect if you're using P3d for 'entertainment' purposes or not? Will you be required to hook up a webcam, and the instant a smile is detected, the sim shuts down?
Its not that - it is, that many FSX add-ons are legally marketed solely as entertainment products, and as such, you may not legally use them in P3D.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17805 posts, RR: 59 Reply 164, posted (3 weeks 6 days 6 hours 26 minutes ago) and read 1292 times:
Quoting Fabo (Reply 163): Its not that - it is, that many FSX add-ons are legally marketed solely as entertainment products, and as such, you may not legally use them in P3D.
What they market them as isn't that important - you can use a lot of products for purposes other than for which they were intended. I would think LM would have a very hard time proving that you were using P3D for entertainment and not for skill-building, training, etc.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 165, posted (3 weeks 5 days 10 hours 1 minute ago) and read 1246 times:
LM only has to proove to Microsoft that Prepar3D is no entertainment product. I think it is the extra work needed to adapt and verify a product for Prepar3D that is the main motivation not to put more work into something that sells without any work now anyways - the licensing scheme is nothing but an excuse.
They will come. My Products are available for FSX and for Prepar3D through different order numbers, and now 1/3rd of the sales are P3D and 2/3 FSX.
speedbird217 From Germany, joined Feb 2012, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 166, posted (3 weeks 5 days 8 hours 28 minutes ago) and read 1234 times:
I really don't get how some people are worse than an office full of lawyers. I am pretty sure LM knows what they are doing, so are the developers for add-ons. If they sell it and you have the option to buy it, who honestly cares? Do you really think somebody will come to your home and see if you are having fun while flying around, and if so you will be arrested? LM expanded their license for students (any kind of student, they don't even check if you really are one), so now you can buy a complete version of P3D for 49.99$, or something like that.
Jeez, what has this world come to that we can't even enjoy a hobby anymore without worrying all the time about licenses and usage rights for a product that we have bought, and want to use in our free time. And what's even worse are people that are debating about this as if it was some kind of major lawsuit, on which the fate of the world depends on.
MS clearly showed us what way they are going in the future with Flight. So if LM bought the source code of FSX, and their hundreds of top-notch lawyers feel safe to sell this, then I don't see any problem at all. If MS would have seen a future for their Flight Simulation branch they would have come up with something themselves. I doubt they are wasting any thought on this matter at all, in contrast to a large portion of simmers as it seems. So if you want to use it, buy it and have fun. I don't think anybody will give a rat's caboose.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 167, posted (3 weeks 4 days 23 hours 55 minutes ago) and read 1195 times:
the problem is not with end users - that is apparent enough.
However I for one have no interest in P3D if I can not get my NGX et al. in it... and that I can not, was what I was trying to tell for the whole time here.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 168, posted (3 weeks 2 days 6 hours 20 minutes ago) and read 1074 times:
I predict the producers of addons will go with the market - and the market for P3D addons is growing very steep, is at half the FSX addon market currently and will surpass it in a few months. If a producer wants to miss the market he is free to choose so...
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 169, posted (3 weeks 1 day 21 hours 23 minutes ago) and read 1053 times:
Checking in after a long time - if Prepar3D will support my addons like OrbX, FSLabs Concorde and PMDG B737/B747/MD-11, I'll grab that right away and won't touch Flight.
I thought the addons for FSX were compatible with P3D, or is it only the basic ones.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 170, posted (3 weeks 1 day 19 hours 44 minutes ago) and read 1048 times:
cpd: ORBX offers licenses for P3D.
PMDG stated that use of their add-ons in P3D is not permitted, but has not yet done anything else (they said they might at one point block the functionality in P3D programmically)
FSLabs I have no idea.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 168): I predict the producers of addons will go with the market
Yep well, that is pretty much infallible prediction
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 168): market for P3D addons is growing very steep, is at half the FSX addon market currently and will surpass it in a few months.
Do you mind me asking where you get the data? From what I gathered around forums, there are some (very loud) proponents of P3D, and while vocal, they are very much a minority. Most of the populace seems apathic to P3D.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
gingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 171, posted (3 weeks 1 day 19 hours 29 minutes ago) and read 1050 times:
Quoting Fabo (Reply 170): Do you mind me asking where you get the data? From what I gathered around forums, there are some (very loud) proponents of P3D, and while vocal, they are very much a minority. Most of the populace seems apathic to P3D.
To be fair, I'm led to believe the majority of FSX addons (especially scenery at least) are very much compatible with P3D as things stand. Let's not forget P3D was developed from FSX originally.
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 172, posted (3 weeks 1 day 18 hours 52 minutes ago) and read 1053 times:
Burkhard was/is a developer. I'm pretty sure we actually met in Seattle at the Redhook Brewery, while listening to the soft sounds of "Zee" doing karaoke. That was before I left the developer scene to get back my health and wellbeing. Those Microsoft people sure knew how to do a decent drinks and dinner function, with a bus provided to get you back to the hotel.
Quoting Fabo (Reply 170): PMDG stated that use of their add-ons in P3D is not permitted, but has not yet done anything else (they said they might at one point block the functionality in P3D programmically)
It seems like it will work from the reading I've been doing. I'm tempted to try an education license and see what it's like. If the talk of the performance improvements is real - that'll be fantastic. I use FSX on a Quad-Core Xeon Mac Pro with Radeon 5870. That runs FSX well, so if they can make performance improvements, it'll be really awesome. I will try it out.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 173, posted (3 weeks 1 day 12 hours 50 minutes ago) and read 1030 times:
Hi cpd, no I was invited but didn't go to Seattle - you know my FSX/P3D project is of infinite size and will not end before aviation ends to need updates - I just was speculating that Flight! never became a Flight Sim, XPlane 10 is as bad as XPlane 9, so expected FSX to remain and now welcome P3D as a future.
While P3D is based on ESP which is mostly FSX SP2, there are small differences between those two. You may have a chance that a product runs as it is, but if it doesn't, don't blame the author who verified it for FSX.
Let my explain about my major product, I had to adapt some sinnconnect clients to work properly with P3D, using the P3D simconnect dll instead of the FSX SP2 one, which in turn requires to move from Visual Studio 2008 to Visual Studio 2010, which then in return included a small change in a runtime library that required to add one variable to a function call - nothing big but requires days of work to get Studio 2010, install it, get it working, compile, find the error, fix it, verify the program to work, etc. The P3D has some airports with a different layout as FSX, KABQ comes to my mind. And some stock planes included in FSX do not exist in P3D, again this needed some work to adapt this. So it took me 4 weeks of full work, about 200 hours, to bring my product into a state that I can support it for P3D - and I'm sure every other developer needs a comparable amount of time to be sure he can support it there. My message to my colleagues is that it is doable and pays out rather quick since the market for P3D is growing very fast. The market accepts that you charge a nominal fee for the update from FSX to P3D.
I hope you managed to get back your health and well being. I went through a difficult time myself until I completely broke with school medicine, learned my lessons and now am well being and still developing with a lot of fun.
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 174, posted (3 weeks 1 day 8 hours 35 minutes ago) and read 1010 times:
Oh, so it seems you guys are seriously in the development - that is cool.
Do you mind me asking who you work for/with/as?
I myself know next to nothing about aircraft development, I am more of a scenery guy, and even a that, not the 3D modelling stuff, but the underlying stuff, photoscenery, scasm and bglc editing and so.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 175, posted (3 weeks 21 hours 22 minutes ago) and read 960 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 173): Hi cpd, no I was invited but didn't go to Seattle
No worries then. (must be another developer with the same first name).
Yes, I'm all better now. I'm happy to enjoy Flight Sim as the end user, maybe paint up some planes here and there and that's enough.
It's seriously cool just how good a platform we seem to have now with P3D, and maybe Lockheed Martin might just have a tidy little side business there with a base of great addons.
As we know, Microsoft appears to have badly miscalculated with Flight - so I suspect a lot of people will hang on to FSX (bad for Microsoft) or otherwise go over to P3D. If FSX should ever become incompatible with future versions of Windows, I suspect P3D will be it. Okay, there is X-Plane, but that's totally different again.
P3D at least allows some ease of migration from the prior platform to the new one provided the product was developed in best-practice methods that were less likely to break as the upgrade happens. I imagine X-Plane would be like starting with a clean-sheet of paper.
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 176, posted (3 weeks 7 hours 12 minutes ago) and read 912 times:
Sorry I cannot withstand - X-Plane is not a clean-sheet - it is like starting with used ... paper.
and Fabo, I work for myself, my products are published by Simmarket and by Aerosoft, I'm Coauthor of products at Flight One, and some more...
Almost no addon gets developed by employed designers, we all started it as a hobby and now generate a little income through it which in turns enables us to continue (and pay the neighbors son to cut the grass in the garden in that time)
Fabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 177, posted (2 weeks 6 days 8 hours 46 minutes ago) and read 835 times:
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 176): Almost no addon gets developed by employed designers, we all started it as a hobby and now generate a little income through it which in turns enables us to continue
I was thinking more "contracted" then "employed", but I get the point. I dont delve much into it, I have neither skills nor desire to go commercial here.
France 1789, Eastern Europe 1989, Northern Africa 2011
cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4813 posts, RR: 49 Reply 178, posted (2 weeks 6 days 8 hours 13 minutes ago) and read 824 times:
Fabo: I think people do get contracted in, I'm certainly aware of it - but won't say who or what for obvious reasons.
It tends to be for specialised work where the producer doesn't have the in house expertise or can't justify the need for a 'semi full time' resource to do the work and software for that person to use (eg, 3dsmax).
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 3977 posts, RR: 2 Reply 179, posted (2 weeks 5 days 11 hours 9 minutes ago) and read 755 times:
Most developers I know are not contracted, they work on their own and offer their products to several publishers. No publisher reached a dominant part of the market. so even if a publisher offers you better conditions for an exclusive contract never do so - you cut yourself off from the majority of the market. And never assume that by selling yourself with a home made web shop you reach more than 1% of your potential market...
The creativity of this self-driven approach is what has made so many beautiful products possible, and also applies for some author teams - of course in the end some contracts have to be made, I know some well kept on the back of an envelop or a beer mat...
Most contracts in Europe have the full risk of the development on the developer, but then a good share of the sales income for the developer. In the US, I have the impression the publishers make one first time payment, and then only a small part of the sales income.
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That was before I left the developer scene to get back my health and wellbeing. Those Microsoft people sure knew how to do a decent drinks and dinner function, with a bus provided to get you back to the hotel. 
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