Sponsor Message:
Aviation Hobby Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Trying To Get My Private Pilot's Certification  
User currently offlinedreamer3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15663 times:

Hey all,

A month ago, I decided I wanted to pursue a private pilot's certification, but I've run into a few bumps along the way. On the first flight, we had engine issues and had to return to the airport as soon as we got up in the air. On the second flight, we got halfway down the runway during takeoff and aborted because the plane wasn't generating enough rpms to get into the air. This has made me completely lose confidence in the plane, a cessna 172. It's such a shame, because I love the actual experience of being in the air.

Is it possible to train on a more stable plane? Maybe one that has a jet engine? Is there a flight academy that has a flawless safety record?

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 15634 times:

A jet engine? Well.... I suppose, in theory, yes. If you are ready to shell out a couple hundred thousand bucks...

If you dont like the airplane, or you feel the maintenance might be fishy in that particular school, find another school, with a different type, or a newer model.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15631 times:

No. If you want to get a PPL, you're going to have to do it in single engine propeller aircraft, such as Cessa 152/172s, Piper PA38s, 28s etc. No, you can't train on a jet.

But think of it this way. Both your experiences proved the safety of what you were doing. In both instances, something went wrong - as will always happen to you in aviation, whether you're flying a C172 or an A380. But the system worked both times - the aircraft was brought safely home the first time, and the instructor recognised the issue and stopped the second time.

Plus, you've probably already used up your bad luck tokens  



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineTupolevtu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2181 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15609 times:

Alternatively, if you're really that worried, you could try gliding. I don't know how common gliding clubs are in the US but it's just as fun, far more relaxing and cheaper. The biggest selling point for you would be the lack of engine in the first place!


Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15525 times:

A 172 or a 150 is THE plane to get your private in. I would argue that it is far better for new students to learn in than any other GA aircraft. It is perfectly safe and reliable, but like every other aircraft, how safe the individual plane is will be determined by the quality of the operation and how many corners they are willing to cut.

Something to also keep in mind. I'm assuming you are a bit of a commercial aviation geek since you are on this site. You probably see that whenever an airliner has any type of problem it is generally a big deal and people will post about it and make a big deal about it (too big of a deal usually) and the reason for this is because the world of commercial aviation is so safe and uneventful that when something does happen it becomes big news.

General aviation is not like that, there are WAY less regulations and requirements involved. Because of this and because there is less money involved in the airplanes/business/pilots/ect... there will be more "problems" You will have lots of little issues in your GA career and that's just the way it is. I have 1000 or so GA hours and I have had my share of little problems or annoyances. Nothing major, nothing that I had to declare an emergency for or talk to the FAA about but little things like you mentioned.

If anything take them as a learning experience, they will factor in to your decision making abilities and ultimately help you as a pilot.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 15508 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 2):

No. If you want to get a PPL, you're going to have to do it in single engine propeller aircraft, such as Cessa 152/172s, Piper PA38s, 28s etc. No, you can't train on a jet.

I don't believe that it is stated anywhere that PPL training MUST be done in a SEP aircraft.



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15486 times:

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 5):
I don't believe that it is stated anywhere that PPL training MUST be done in a SEP aircraft.

It's not but good luck finding the cash to do it. Even if you wanted to upgrade to simply a multi-engine piston you would be more than doubling the cost of any given rating. And a multi-piston is no safer or more stable than a single piston.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15472 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I know, but that's not what buebog was saying. If the OP has the cash at hand (who knows, he might have won Megamillions) and wishes to learn on jets/turboprops, there will be people out there who will be willing to provide the training from ab initio. I'm sure that insurance would cost just as much as the fuel though!

I for one think it would make a refreshing change to zip around in a Jet Provost instead of my 172!



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlinen797mx From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15469 times:

Quoting Tupolevtu154 (Reply 3):
Alternatively, if you're really that worried, you could try gliding. I don't know how common gliding clubs are in the US but it's just as fun, far more relaxing and cheaper. The biggest selling point for you would be the lack of engine in the first place!

Well if he keeps flying with a plane that cant get up to the necessary it might be a possibility...  

In all seriousness however I would look into the flight trainings safety records and maintenance logs for the plane you are in and double/triple check everything is good and up to date. I attend Kent State University and know they have a very good safety record when it comes to maintenance. The only thing I have found to be a problem is occasionally on some of the older aircraft I will find a popped screw.

Also, with regards to the engine not performing well I would look deeper into what they do with the plane after you cancelled your flight. IIRC there was a flight school in NY that was shut down because they were trying to cut costs by not repairing planes that were failing, hopefully not another case.



Clear skies and strong tail winds.
User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15460 times:

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 7):

Realistically, even if he had the money it wouldn't work. First off, large turbo-props/turbo-jets are not designed to do quick flights (traffic patterns) I mean Aloha had a hard enough time flying 737's inter-island in Hawaii. Also he would run into the same problem of general condition of the aircraft. Sure large planes are well maintained when they are with an airline or charter operator, but they aren't about to lease out a plane to guy who wants a private pilots license. Finally, unless he buys the plane, no one is going to "rent out" their jet. Training aircraft take a beating and large planes are not designed for that.


User currently offlinedreamer3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15452 times:

Thanks everyone for all your responses. They have all been really helpful. I have not won the megamillions so cessnas will have to do for now. But wow, training on a 737? What a dream.

I talked to a guy with the Air Force who recommended I train on pipers. Any thoughts on this?

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for flight schools in the NYC area? I'm looking for a school where I'll only have to spend 10-15k for a certificate, that has a good maintenance record. Also, I'd prefer if the school had instructors who like being instructors. I've noticed that a lot of instructors are just there to accumulate hours. And i'd prefer if the instructor had a little gray in his/her hair. Sorry if anyone reading this is a young instructor, I know this is a form of ageism, but i just feel better with a seasoned vet.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15427 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 9):
First off, large turbo-props/turbo-jets are not designed to do quick flights (traffic patterns)

No offense but tell that to guys that come up to VCV and beat up the pattern and request multiple instrument approaches while flying E50P's, EA50's and various Citations.

FX1816


User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 15395 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 11):
No offense but tell that to guys that come up to VCV and beat up the pattern and request multiple instrument approaches while flying E50P's, EA50's and various Citations.

Multiple approaches are different than touch and goes where the engines are going from high settings to low settings very quickly. Plus those are experienced pilots, either working on a type rating or testing nav equipment.


User currently onlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1367 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15389 times:

Quoting dreamer3 (Reply 10):
I'd prefer if the school had instructors who like being instructors. I've noticed that a lot of instructors are just there to accumulate hours. And i'd prefer if the instructor had a little gray in his/her hair.

Just because they're there to build hours doesn't mean they don't like instructing. Honestly, for what you have to go through to become an instructor, you don't just do it to build hours. It was hands down the most brutal checkride of my life just to get the privilege of teaching people to fly.

The other thing to keep in mind is you'll likely pay more for a seasoned instructor, and in my experience they're usually ex-airline pilots who will expect more out of you faster than a younger instructor.

And lastly, as far as your aircraft for training, yes you can use a piper, but the Cessna's are a far more stable platform to learn in. The Cessna 172 can take far more abuse than the Piper Warrior or Piper Archer, I teach in both types daily and would rather have my initial students in the 172. Just because you had a small incident in the 172 is no reason to write it off. Look at a different school than the one you first went with and you'll find its the most common trainer out there, and after your first bad landing you'll understand why.


User currently offlinesimonisjf From South Africa, joined Sep 2012, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15379 times:

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 13):
Just because they're there to build hours doesn't mean they don't like instructing. Honestly, for what you have to go through to become an instructor, you don't just do it to build hours. It was hands down the most brutal checkride of my life just to get the privilege of teaching people to fly.

The other thing to keep in mind is you'll likely pay more for a seasoned instructor, and in my experience they're usually ex-airline pilots who will expect more out of you faster than a younger instructor.

And lastly, as far as your aircraft for training, yes you can use a piper, but the Cessna's are a far more stable platform to learn in. The Cessna 172 can take far more abuse than the Piper Warrior or Piper Archer, I teach in both types daily and would rather have my initial students in the 172. Just because you had a small incident in the 172 is no reason to write it off. Look at a different school than the one you first went with and you'll find its the most common trainer out there, and after your first bad landing you'll understand why.

I agree with Flyer732, I just feel safer in a high wing plane for some reason. I have had my instructor cut my engine completely in flight and had me glide while I "fault-finded". Very scary but it shows you the capability of your plane. The C172 is an excellent plane in my opinion. You got some good practice in dealing with emergency procedures. Stick it out but perhaps move to another flight school and ask to see their maintenance procedures.

Flight instructors.. yeah some of them seem to be bored out of their minds but given their jobs (teaching many folks who only get to test for their PPLs at 130 hours...) I respect them. At times the working conditions are not that great.



@simonisjf is where I am at. I love thunderstorms, but only from the ground!
User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 15378 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 9):
large turbo-props/turbo-jets are not designed to do quick flights (traffic patterns)

Large ones? Agreed. But I was referring to something like a Pilatus PC-7, or a Jet Provost. Those *were* designed to take abuse. I wasn't suggesting that he fly a 737! For a start, the OP wouldn't get to do his solo!

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 13):
The Cessna 172 can take far more abuse than the Piper Warrior or Piper Archer

Amen! I put it down to the landing gear.

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 12):
Plus those are experienced pilots, either working on a type rating or testing nav equipment.

I am aware of at least one flight school that uses a fleet of Citation Mustangs for their jet phase. Those aircraft do nothing else but training flights.

Quoting simonisjf (Reply 14):
I have had my instructor cut my engine completely in flight

Interesting! Mine would never do that on a single engined aircraft!

Btw dreamer3, are you doing this for fun, or with the possibility of turning flying into a career?



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlinedreamer3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15360 times:

Nah just for fun. No way could I handle the pressure of being responsible for other souls. Big Kudos to commercial pilots. Although part of me dreams of flying seaplanes commercially between the Virgin Islands.

User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 15348 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 6):
It's not but good luck finding the cash to do it.

That is what I meant... notice I talked about hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 6):
And a multi-piston is no safer ... than a single piston.

Debatable...

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 9):
Realistically, even if he had the money it wouldn't work. First off, large turbo-props/turbo-jets are not designed to do quick flights (traffic patterns) I mean Aloha had a hard enough time flying 737's inter-island in Hawaii.

Ever heard of jet trainers? L-39 and so?   Nobody says he should fly multicrew airliners... Meanwhile I seem to recall that there was/is an airforce that has their whole curriculum in turbine planes (jets and maybe turboprops) - so if a soldier can do it, why not a civilian?



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinedreamer3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 15346 times:

L-39 training is only for those with a pilots license. we're talking about training on jets without any prior flight experience. But thanks for the info. Once i get my PPL, I will be training on those bad boys. The unit cost is only 300,000!!! I don't get it. Why don't all training schools offer the L-39? Wouldn't everyone prefer to fly on those as opposed to cessnas? They cost about the same

User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15339 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 4):

A 172 or a 150 is THE plane to get your private in. I would argue that it is far better for new students to learn in than any other GA aircraft. It is perfectly safe and reliable, but like every other aircraft, how safe the individual plane is will be determined by the quality of the operation and how many corners they are willing to cut.

Let's not forget about PA28s/PA38s... PA38 is arguably the best trainer of them all... unfettered engine access, great in the stall, nice spin, handles like a larger plane, lots of space in the cabin...

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 4):
I don't believe that it is stated anywhere that PPL training MUST be done in a SEP aircraft.

It's not, but nobody is realistically going to be able to get a PPL (and only a PPL, as the OP seems to want,) on an a/c that isn't an SEP.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 7):
there will be people out there who will be willing to provide the training from ab initio

Unlikely. Even all expensive ab initio schemes I know of do ~100 hrs on SEPs.

Quoting dreamer3 (Reply 10):
I talked to a guy with the Air Force who recommended I train on pipers. Any thoughts on this?

Doesn't really matter. They're all light SEPs, so comes down to personal preference. I trained on the piper PA38, fantastic trainer. I'm a piper guy and would always chose a PA38 over a C150/152 and a PA28 over a C172/182 but there's no real rational reason to chose one vs the other.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently onlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1367 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 15338 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 19):
Let's not forget about PA28s/PA38s... PA38 is arguably the best trainer of them all... unfettered engine access, great in the stall, nice spin, handles like a larger plane, lots of space in the cabin...

You won't really find any PA38's in the states, the 172 and the PA28 are the standard trainer aircraft. But as I said in my previous post, I teach in both types daily, and I much prefer putting my initial students in the 172, which will handle what they throw at it much better. On top of that, spins are not typically taught to or shown to private students in the USA, only a requirement at the instructor level.


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15332 times:

Quoting dreamer3 (Reply 18):
The unit cost is only 300,000!!! I don't get it. Why don't all training schools offer the L-39? Wouldn't everyone prefer to fly on those as opposed to cessnas? They cost about the same

They might cost... well, comparably, to a SEP... but the cost to run them... in another world.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15319 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 19):
PA38 is arguably the best trainer of them all... unfettered engine access, great in the stall, nice spin, handles like a larger plane, lots of space in the cabin

All I will say is that there is a reason it's been dubbed the "TramaHawk"

Quoting Fabo (Reply 17):
so if a soldier can do it, why not a civilian?

I might not be 100% correct on this but US Military pilots don't go by the regulations that civilian pilots do. When they are going through their training they don't get a DOT licence that civilian pilots do.

Quoting dreamer3 (Reply 18):
The unit cost is only 300,000!!! I don't get it

Yeah and BAC-111's are only 100,000, but there is a reason they are that price. Fuel/Maintenance/insurance/hanger space would more than triple the base price

Quoting Fabo (Reply 17):
Debatable...

Not for a new student.


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15298 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 22):
I might not be 100% correct on this but US Military pilots don't go by the regulations that civilian pilots do. When they are going through their training they don't get a DOT licence that civilian pilots do.

Yes, that is most certainly true in most, if not all military flying, but the basic principles of flight still apply.
Academically speaking of course, as cost of such training would be prohibitive for most, if not all, flight students, if a military pilot can learn ab initio on turbines, so can a civilian. Not that he would have much use of it (unlike a career military pilot).

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 22):
Not for a new student.

Definitely. The question is, where would he be put on solo... assuming that instructors and examiners would hold him to high enough standarts. Again, this is an academic debate, as this would not be practical for a civilian private students for reasons not dissimilar to jet training. Then again, I know of a school (a tiny place, with grunt of business on different aviation jobs), that did teach basic PPL on a twin for a while - their Cessna was grounded for some reason and other options were a cropduster trainer with a big radial in front, or a touring twin of roughly Seneca/Baron class. The twin was cheaper in the end, so they used it for teaching while Cessna was in the shop.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15227 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 22):
All I will say is that there is a reason it's been dubbed the "TramaHawk"

By people who haven't flown it, due to accidents caused by people trying spins at 1,000 feet...



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
25 Braniff747SP : Think of it like this--the majority of PPLs are earned with the 172/150. Hell, I did a lesson in a 172 from 1972. (Very 70s.... all red inside!) It's
26 NWADC9 : I'd say if anything, lose confidence in maintenance. Cessnas aren't popular simply because of their looks. They're great airplanes, but they can go s
27 Post contains images nipoel123 : I've flown both the Tomahawk and the 172, and prefer the Tomahawk. IIRC the 172 has springs attached to it's control cables, I find the PA38 to handl
28 Flyer732 : Even so, you'll be hard pressed to find one in the US. In my time flying, I've only ever seen one PA38, and it was private.
29 Post contains images FX1816 : I KNOW that touch and goes are a bit different than instrument approaches but I also said that they come and beat up the pattern at VCV, with multipl
30 bueb0g : My flying school has 14 of them. We sometimes joke that we own the entire airworthy European fleet... And it's only half a joke...
31 NWADC9 : If Cessnas and Pipers aren't your thing, Diamond's DA-20 is growing in popularity. It utilizes a control stick, and has a canopy. Also, light sport ai
32 AllegiantAir : I work at an FBO in Minnesota that has a PA38 as its primary trainer. I also did all of my Private in it. Great plane, had no problems with it. It is
33 bueb0g : PA38 has 2 doors! Definitely true for the PA28. PA38 stall/spin characteristics are awesome though (ie sharp, defined, proper - much less gentle than
34 tan1mill : I got my PPL using a DA-20 and have no complaints. There will always be the discussion about whether a high wing or low wing is better. Both have the
35 MrCazzy : No place will have a flawless safety record. Mistakes do happen. I am currently a student at university of North Dakota and have been flying a Cessna
36 rwy04lga : If you own the airplane, you can train in it. No matter what the airplane is. Cut, as in turned off? Or just brought back to idle? Same here....at Pe
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Trying To Get My Private Pilot's Certification
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Aviation hobby related posts only.
  • Back all your opinions with facts.
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Please, I Need To Get Rid Of My Inflight Magazines posted Sun May 21 2000 17:11:48 by CY315
How To Protect My Scalemodels While Moving? posted Sun Aug 29 2010 06:18:17 by Wolverine
How To Get Rid Of Microsoft Aircraft From FS9 AI? posted Sun Mar 7 2010 14:40:32 by MaverickM11
How To Improve My FSX Display? posted Fri Sep 4 2009 05:05:40 by Aak777
Where To Get FSX Plane Txtrs Compatible With DX10? posted Thu Jul 16 2009 11:08:23 by FLY2HMO
Where To Get Seatbelt Sign Sound File? posted Sat Sep 13 2008 06:33:11 by Ronerone
I Would Like To Sell My Huge 1:500 Model Airport posted Wed Aug 27 2008 12:48:02 by KLM672
Help Trying To Find Champion Air 727 Model posted Mon May 26 2008 08:43:49 by Af773atmsp
How To Get A Clear Removal? posted Tue May 20 2008 10:29:13 by Gr325
Where To Get An Air Traffic Scanner? posted Tue Mar 25 2008 15:41:25 by ZuluAviator994

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format