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New Book About Northwest Airlines  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5493 posts, RR: 7
Posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5762 times:

"Nonstop" by Jack El-Hai was reviewed by the Wall St Journal last Saturday. Sounds like one of those histories full of nitty-gritty details so many of us like. From the earliest times, when it was bankrolled by Ford Motor Co, 'til the end.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

I hope it is a good one. Not too much out there on NW. What is out there could stand some fact-checking. No one was writing about them in the early days and after Nyrop took over in the early 1950's they pretty much stayed off the radar screen. Oh, there was the "Airport" movie at MSP. Nyrop's secretary was in a split-second of that. Lots of tugs. That was essentially a Boeing promo film on the virtues of the 707.

Anyway, I look forward to a good read on NW. Will order it today and report what I find.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

I bought mine from Amazon. It is very accurate and full of little details that only NW folks would realize are true. The book has become a "must read" for everyone that worked for NW. Highly recommend it. It has become extremely popular.

The author did a book signing in MSP and from what I have heard it was really mobbed. Great effort by a great author.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5370 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
Oh, there was the "Airport" movie at MSP. Nyrop's secretary was in a split-second of that. Lots of tugs. That was essentially a Boeing promo film on the virtues of the 707.

A lot of NW employees had "walk-on" parts in the movie, especially in the opening scenes. I used to be able to recognize some of the people. Maybe it's time to haul the movie out again.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2244 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 2):
I bought mine from Amazon. It is very accurate and full of little details that only NW folks would realize are true. The book has become a "must read" for everyone that worked for NW. Highly recommend it. It has become extremely popular.

The author did a book signing in MSP and from what I have heard it was really mobbed. Great effort by a great author.

I was at the book signing - you are right, it was standing room only. The author brought 60 books, and I think all sixty were sold before the signing was over.

I really like the book, but its one weakness is that it spends less time covering the relatively stable years when Don Nyrop was in charge than it devotes to the more volatile years before and after Nyrop's presidency. The author repeats the usual allegations against Nyrop - he was frugal, he hated the unions, etc - but he does not give Nyrop enough credit for making sure Northwest was one of two airlines that entered deregulation with a modern fleet (unlike PA, WA Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW, AA, UA, EA, and WA) and almost no debt (unlike CO and BN).

Northwest would not have survived deregulation's first ten years if it had TWA's fleet, or Continental's debt load, and the author does not convey this as well as he should have!



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinewhitewasp From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

This will be a great gift for Christmas for my friend. He is like a encyclopedia regarding past airlines. I am going to buy it!

User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Thanks very much for sharing! This former employee will definitely buy a copy.

For a long time, all we had was Flight to the Top, which, while good, was published just after the Republic merger and therefore a bit dated.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 4):
I really like the book, but its one weakness is that it spends less time covering the relatively stable years when Don Nyrop was in charge than it devotes to the more volatile years before and after Nyrop's presidency. The author repeats the usual allegations against Nyrop - he was frugal, he hated the unions, etc - but he does not give Nyrop enough credit for making sure Northwest was one of two airlines that entered deregulation with a modern fleet (unlike PA, WA Transworld Airlines (USA)">TW, AA, UA, EA, and WA) and almost no debt (unlike CO and BN).

Agreed--Nyrop was the guy we all loved to hate. Frugal to the point of idiocy (like removing all the doors to the stalls in the men's rooms to avoid dawdling). But he left NW is a stable financial shape. I never understood why the Board never invoked a "Poison Pill" defense mechanism to protect the company from the Checci/Wilson bandits.

Personally, whenever Mr. Nyrop was on a flight or talking with employees one-on-one he was a quiet, personable man who really did seem to like us. He just had a problem letting loose of the purse strings and with the old Mutual Aid Pact he had no incentive to settle strikes since he was being paid by all of the other airlines for not flying. They called us "Cobra Airlines--We Strike At Anything!"



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinevc10dc10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

I'll definitely be ordering a copy. Thanks for getting the word out!

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 6):

For a long time, all we had was Flight to the Top, which, while good, was published just after the Republic merger and therefore a bit dated.

"Flight to the Top" is good; another book, published just a few months before, is "Northwest Orient" by Bill Yenne.


User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 2):
I bought mine from Amazon. It is very accurate and full of little details that only NW folks would realize are true. The book has become a "must read" for everyone that worked for NW. Highly recommend it. It has become extremely popular.

The author did a book signing in MSP and from what I have heard it was really mobbed. Great effort by a great author.

I just received mine, and am really looking forward to digging into it!

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 4):
I was at the book signing - you are right, it was standing room only.

I'm happy to hear it.

Quoting whitewasp (Reply 5):
This will be a great gift for Christmas for my friend.

It was my Xmas gift to myself.  



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1738 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4933 times:
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Will order the book. Review in WSJ is very condescending of Northwest. Will be curious to see if book is as harsh on the Red Tail. As someone who flew well over a million miles on Northwest, there are many things I miss about the airline and that seems to surprise some people.

User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
Review in WSJ is very condescending of Northwest.

Here's the WSJ review/ Certainly negative, but I wouldn't say overly so.

User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4885 times:

Sorry, the link did not post correctly and I can not seem to edit the post either. Problems posting WSJ links, so just use http://www.google.com/#q=non-stop+site:wsj.com

User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Sounds like a really interesting and informative account of not only Northwest but the entire aviation industry in the US. And I didn't think the WSJ review was negative at all - I think the reviewer picked up parts that would spark the interest of the contemporary reader.

My impression of Northwest 10 years ago (when they were handling the Virgin Atlantic B747 flight in Boston) was that they were extremely focused on operations and punctuality. The general perception was though that their unions were tough to deal with and there were frequent tensions with management, including local.


User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4641 times:

Wow - thanks for sharing. Will definitely be ordering a copy - and better yet it qualifies for Amazon Prime! NW will always be special to me, having grown up in AZO. We all had a love/hate relationship with NW - on one hand you got mainline service to AZO (on Diesel 9s!), but you never knew if you'd be stuck on the runway for 13 hours. Can't wait to read.

User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1105 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4593 times:
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I as a mechanic taking a training course on the 727 in the basement of the G.O. (General Office) during a break spilled a coke on Donald Nyrop when he came charging down the hall and bumped into me. He knew he was at fault, looked at me and never said a word. He then continued on his way. I know this is not in the book, but it shows that when Nyrop made a mistake, he was willing to take responsibility for it.   

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1686 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

I feel like it's borderline mandatory for me to purchase this book and read it on board my final two DC-9 flights next month. A fitting way to say goodbye to those birds that got to witness a large chunk of NW's history firsthand.

User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

I have to admit I found the WSJ piece pretty snarky. The whole "Northworst" thing was as boring today as it was when people said it to us on the airplane pretending that it was their original thought. I liked to turn it around and say "That's funny--I have always heard us referred to as 'NorthBest'." The incorrect designation of the DTW tragedy in 1987 as a DC-9 when it was an MD-80 (and yes, I am aware that the correct legal description of the airplane is as a DC-9-80), referring to the "Underwear Bomber" as a new low for NW was totally incorrect. I have friends that worked that flight and they were recognized by the feds and industry as true heroes. Like all of you, I am a stickler for details. What was pretty funny was that particular airplane was already painted in DL colors and was shown around the world. DL's powers-that-be were pretty amusing trying to distance themselves from the paint and the fact that it was operated as a NW flight, a distinction not understood by most. In order to not confuse airport controllers, the pilots had to use the radio designation as "Northwest flight ______ operating in Delta colors" to avoid confusion. It was not until we were awarded the single operating certificate that the honorable and proud Northwest name was retired from the airways. But in a great show of corporate class, DL has carefully included many items of NW history into their museum in ATL including memorabilia from all of the carriers that eventually made up Northwest Airlines.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinevc10dc10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 17):

Another inaccuracy in the WSJ article concerns flight 188--no way were there ever 179 passengers on a Northwest A320.

Northwest has always been my favorite airline.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4430 times:

Quoting vc10dc10 (Reply 18):
Another inaccuracy in the WSJ article concerns flight 188--no way were there ever 179 passengers on a Northwest A320.

Not unless they were stacked up like cord wood!



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offline747buff From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

Another nitpick:

The review says the DTW crash "killed 150 passengers". The correct number is 156 including the crew and ground fatalities. BTW, one thing that really makes my teeth grind about aviation "reporting" is when an article says a crash killed XXX number of passengers with no mention of the crew. Do these idiots think the planes fly themselves or something?

All in all, I still plan to buy the book, since I love nothing more than an in-depth look at the airline industry.

[Edited 2013-11-19 21:43:58]


At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5493 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

I'm glad so many appreciated my post. I'm buying a copy, too.

Also, I swear I have no interest in selling this or any other book.   



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting VS11 (Reply 13):
My impression of Northwest 10 years ago (when they were handling the Virgin Atlantic B747 flight in Boston) was that they were extremely focused on operations and punctuality.

That's a pretty accurate observation.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 17):
The whole "Northworst" thing was as boring today as it was when people said it to us on the airplane pretending that it was their original thought.

Exactly.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 17):
Like all of you, I am a stickler for details. What was pretty funny was that particular airplane was already painted in DL colors and was shown around the world. DL's powers-that-be were pretty amusing trying to distance themselves from the paint and the fact that it was operated as a NW flight, a distinction not understood by most. In order to not confuse airport controllers, the pilots had to use the radio designation as "Northwest flight ______ operating in Delta colors" to avoid confusion

That's always seemed really sleazy to me- just like how fast they were to emphasize that it was *DELTA* flights operating flood relief into the Dakotas.

Quoting vc10dc10 (Reply 18):
Northwest has always been my favorite airline.

You clearly have excellent taste.  



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1679 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting 747buff (Reply 20):
The review says the DTW crash "killed 150 passengers". The correct number is 156 including the crew and ground fatalities. BTW, one thing that really makes my teeth grind about aviation "reporting" is when an article says a crash killed XXX number of passengers with no mention of the crew. Do these idiots think the planes fly themselves or something?

For some reason crews tend not to be included in the counts yet when people think of an airline it is usually the pilots and flight attendants that come to mind. I guess people don't know about all of the "below wing" people, administrative staff, agents and other personnel that keep the whole enterprise moving. This book does give an even handed view of many of the other job functions--especially when it talks about the bitterness of the BRAC strike.



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User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1738 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3846 times:
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Quoting 747buff (Reply 20):

Another nitpick:

The review says the DTW crash "killed 150 passengers". The correct number is 156 including the crew and ground fatalities. BTW, one thing that really makes my teeth grind about aviation "reporting" is when an article says a crash killed XXX number of passengers with no mention of the crew. Do these idiots think the planes fly themselves or something?

All in all, I still plan to buy the book, since I love nothing more than an in-depth look at the airline industry.

My understanding on the Super 80 crash is the aircraft operated on the Republic certificate and under RC flight op procedures, even though the flight was marketed as Northwest. There is some specifics regarding this in the annals of the NTSB final report. I've always understood that at the time of the crash the RC ops had not been fully immersed into NW, similar to what we've seen with the NW/DL and UA/CO mergers.

As a journalist I would appreciate fully accurate reporting down the most finite information but I've become accustomed to generalization in aviation/airline reporting.


25 Post contains links DTWPurserBoy : This was also true of the B727-200/DC-9-10 ground collision that took so many lives. The Boeing was piloted by NW crews and the 9 was a RC crew. The
26 747buff : Yes, the NW/RC pilots and FAs were not yet intergrated (limiting each group to their own pre-merger aircraft), so in a way RC still existed but used
27 DTWPurserBoy : Not sure if it is true or not but legend has it that they hospital picked green glass from the 727 wingtip out of the f/o's right arm. Apparently, he
28 RussianJet : That's a very big nitpick, because if they specify passengers then the statement is completely accurate (assuming 150 pax did indeed perish). Differe
29 n7371f : Everyone I ever talked to inside NATCO said the Captain was ice in the situation - could not have handled it better and, in fact, could've easily los
30 Post contains links alberchico : Barnes and Noble is showing this book is also being published in paperback as well as hardcover . Why would they be sold at the same price ? http://ww
31 Post contains links A333MSPtoAMS : I just bought my copy a couple days ago. It should arrive at home before i get back from Asia. MSP people, i have also contacted Jack (the author) and
32 ozark1 : Accurate? If you call a chapter devoted to a flying goose accurate! Wasn't it Herman The Duck???? Am I imagining things or wasn't North Central Airli
33 Post contains links psa188 : The book was actually reviewed on this forum on January 13: Review: Non-Stop: A Turbulant History Of Northwest (by psa188 Jan 13 2014 in Aviation Hobb
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