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Selling Safety Cards On Ebay - Time To Stop?  
User currently offlineJulianUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 105 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9049 times:

Well today I spoke to ebay about how many safety cards were for sale on ebay...I "educated them" that if the aircraft was currently in service then it is unlikely that safety cards for sale on ebay were probably gained with the airlines permission.....

unless i am missing something, a safety card doesn't get updated that much over the course of an aircrafts history, therefore if you are flogging a Virgin 747-400 safety card is it right to assume it has been "acquired" by a collector without permission?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9050 times:

what are you talking about? You "talked" to ebay? sure ok..


MOVE THIS TO HOBBY....



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9049 times:

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
Well today I spoke to ebay about how many safety cards were for sale on ebay...I "educated them" that if the aircraft was currently in service then it is unlikely that safety cards for sale on ebay were probably gained with the airlines permission.....

Wow, talk about a stick in the mud, fly in the ointment, and no fun guy at a party....can't wait to see how high your respect rating goes!


User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1294 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9024 times:

JuilianUK,

I am a safety cards collector, currently own 1034 different safety cards + a nice trade list.

Whenever I ask for someone to get cards for me, I tell him (or her) to ASK THE F/A for the cards, not just because the safety card is not allowed out of the a/c, but also because the spare safety cards held by the F/As are in much better condition then those in use on board. That's a first thing.

The secant thing is, that I don't really understand what this thread is about. Ether the safety cards on ebay taken without permission, lets say they did, so what!? So much stuff on ebay was stolen or robbed, do you really think that those few pieces of paper are the worst thing on sale on ebay? Safety cards has no real job our days, an 200 tons airliner fall out of the sky from 37.000 feet high - is the safety card really gonna do something? Do you remember sometime in history of modern aviation that the safety card saved someone's life? Half the the passengers on board don't even read it, or so I believe.

One last thing - what makes it your business? Who asked you to be the safety cards policeman? Leave the safety cards collectors alone, we never did no harm to any airline, and we will continue to do so, including those buy cards on ebay (and I am not one of them).

LY



"In our country, those who do not believe in miracles are irrational" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3808 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8985 times:

There are many ways to get a safety card legally. In fact, the better part of the huge collection of mine are taken with the crew's permission. Sometimes they give me a pile of 4 or 5. Usually they have a whole shipload of them in an overhead bin near the galley.

Anyway, I still don't understand the exact situation, so YOU asked Ebay to ban safety cards from being traded because YOU decided that they are illegal?

They might actually believe you. And that day, you have the whole aviation hobby community against you. "Look, this is Julian Hensey, the safety card cop!"

I still can't believe what people do when they have too much time on their hands.

Soren  santahat 



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineGeorgetown From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8959 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Julian, it is usually best not to "educate" someone about anything unless you are absolutly sure about it. Which, judging by your post it appears you are not.
Just out of curiosity, why would you take it upon yourself to do this without any research into it? Let's just say I'm sure there's a lot of people out there on this site and other sites (ahem...) that are pretty upset with you right now.



Let's go Hoyas!
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 8898 times:

And all the questions you post in Tech/Ops? Are we going to get exposed on some sort of expose on how you can learn to fly an airliner on the web?

Stepped in the pooh with this one.


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month ago) and read 8727 times:

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
Well today I spoke to ebay about how many safety cards were for sale on ebay...I "educated them" that if the aircraft was currently in service then it is unlikely that safety cards for sale on ebay were probably gained with the airlines permission.....

Are you serious? You actually did this? What did they have to say?

What about life vests? I know some of them get taken as souveniers as well and I am positive the f/a's don't hand those over.

Just so you know, the safety cards on any given airplane are not the same ones that were originally put on there before it's first flight. The cabin gets cleaned out every so often, and all the magazines, pillows, unused vomit bags, blankets and yes, safety cards get replaced. All the old ones get tossed or recycled. Also, when an aircraft gets weighed, all that crap comes out, and instead of bothering putting the old back in, they put in all new crap. So a resourceful person could obtain those cards by the ton if they really wanted to and had the right connection at an airline.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 3):
Safety cards has no real job our days, an 200 tons airliner fall out of the sky from 37.000 feet high - is the safety card really gonna do something?

Sad but true. Sounds like you have quite the collection! Sorry I don't work for an airline anymore, or I'd steal some safety cards and send them to you.  Wink

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineGreenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 951 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8629 times:

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
Well today I spoke to ebay about how many safety cards were for sale on ebay...I "educated them" that if the aircraft was currently in service then it is unlikely that safety cards for sale on ebay were probably gained with the airlines permission.....

unless i am missing something, a safety card doesn't get updated that much over the course of an aircrafts history, therefore if you are flogging a Virgin 747-400 safety card is it right to assume it has been "acquired" by a collector without permission?

If you're going to 'educate them' you could at least have a bit of knowledge of the subject you're teaching.

Even if you did manage to stop ebay from selling safety cards it would have little difference on the hobby of safety card collecting. People will just go somewhere else but thanks for your divine intervention anyway  Smile


User currently offlineSimon Cooper From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 404 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8590 times:

Strange how JulianUK hasn't replied yet!!!!

User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2848 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

Quoting JulianUK (Thread starter):
Well today I spoke to ebay about how many safety cards were for sale on ebay...I "educated them" that if the aircraft was currently in service then it is unlikely that safety cards for sale on ebay were probably gained with the airlines permission.....

What were you smoking before you "made" that call to ebay ??

Also, i would like to know (and i'm pretty sure a lot us here) would like to know what kind of response you got from eBay.

-Zaki


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2374 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8514 times:

Something which comes to my mind as a potential problem with people just grabbing a safety card and leave the aircraft. Does the cabin crew check every seat for a safety card before the next flight, because if not, a seat with a missing safety card could mean the difference between life or death for the person sitting in the seat.

I'm not against this hobby, but people need to take precautions instead of just taking them I think.

[Edited 2006-06-29 18:57:27]

User currently offlineGCDEG From Greece, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8462 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 20):
Does the cabin crew check every seat for a safety card before the next flight, because if not, a seat with a missing safety card could mean the difference between life or death for the person sitting in the seat.

Yes cabin crew must check there is a safety card in each seat pocket before every flight. If there is one missing in a row then it is still safe to go as long as there is another one or two in that row. eg a row of 3 seats - must be a minimum of 2 safety cards, row of 2 seats - must be a minimum of 1 safety card. Usually on all aircrafts there are spare safety cards stored somewhere and very rarely will they be missing from a seat pocket. The easiest thing to do if you want a safety card is ask the crew for one. They'll be more than happy to give you a brand new unfolded one.

Just my  twocents 

Nick



The best thing invented - Winglets!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2374 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8458 times:

Quoting GCDEG (Reply 21):
Yes cabin crew must check there is a safety card in each seat pocket before every flight. If there is one missing in a row then it is still safe to go as long as there is another one or two in that row. eg a row of 3 seats - must be a minimum of 2 safety cards, row of 2 seats - must be a minimum of 1 safety card. Usually on all aircrafts there are spare safety cards stored somewhere and very rarely will they be missing from a seat pocket. The easiest thing to do if you want a safety card is ask the crew for one. They'll be more than happy to give you a brand new unfolded one.

Thanks, that is what I wanted to hear

I think I will start collecting too then. Just a shame I didn't start earlier as I have already flown with a lot of different airlines, and I am sure that I won't be flying with a few of them ever again  Sad

[Edited 2006-06-29 23:45:48]

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8437 times:

Stealing the odd safety card isn't something I could condone but talk about overreaction. I think your efforts would be better spent checking the sources of any safety equipment for sale on E-bay.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 22):
and I am sure that I won't be flying with a few of them ever again  Sad

P1ssed you off, did they?  biggrin 


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

All this talk of stealing these cards reminds me of something my father got on a business trip in the early '70s. He took an ashtray from the hotel at which he was staying, and printed right on it it said "Stolen From" and then the hotel's name and city it was in (honestly, the only thing I remember is the "stolen from" part, but it may have been the Hyatt). In his words, "they expect you to steal the ashtrays". I wonder if the airlines expect a certain amount of these cards to come up missing due to souvenier hunting?

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3808 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8411 times:

Ok, let me end this discussion for good. Just pay attention to my following thoughts and the whole thing should clear up.

Forbidden items on Ebay: Things like live ( / endangered) animals, child pornography, nazi propaganda. There is a whole list, you can look it up on ebay if you care. These things are banned from being sold / bought because there are laws against it, either against possession or against trade.

Safety cards. There is only one law here, and it's not a law that prohibits taking them, no, it's a law that prohibits the airline from flying without having them in place before take-off.

Ok, now I'm sure that somebody will argue that there is a law that prohibits the passenger to mess with any part of the safety on board. I know it's worded differently, but heck I'm no lawyer. This law does not apply to safety cards. How do I know that? Logic thinking.

If it did, then the little text on the front / back of the card would be different. It would sound more like the sticker near the smoke detector in the lav. Instead, the text on the safety card "kindly" asks the passenger not to take one, sometimes even ends with a "please", and even if they put in the occasional "forbidden", there is no law behind that. Otherwise, why wouldn't they mention it, almost instantly stopping safety card "theft" because you would fear breaking a federal aviation law?

Bottom line, the little text has no different purpose than "take a few seconds and pick up any trash around your seat", which saves the airline some time = money when cleaning the aircraft. Just like that warning text on the safety card. It saves them the hassle + money + extra weight of replacing them and carrying around a shipload of spare cards.

Going back to my point... The one who's committing a crime is not you for taking it, but the airline if it decides not to replace it after you. Now I totally understand if you have any personal, moral problems with that, like "my favourite airline is in Chapter 11 and I don't want to make things worse", or "what IF they forget to replace it and there's an inspector on board" (does that even exist?), or "what IF they forget to replace it and the passenger has no chance to read the safety card" (as if anybody ever does that), but those are YOUR personal moral problems, and not a law that you're breaking.

Now back to Ebay. (where you can buy tons of traffic signs for example, which COULD have been acquired legaly on D.O.T. auctions, but probably most of them are either stolen at night or "collected" after a strong wind has blown them over, but in this case there actually IS a law against taking them but still you find heaps of them on Ebay)

So Ebay allows the trade of safety cards because there is nothing wrong with it, and even if there was a law, then Ebay would still allow it because of situations like some of you have described above, like airlines throwing away huge quantities because of changed procedures or retired equipment.
Until people like Julian Hensey a.k.a. JulianUK come along. Ebay is probably too busy to look into details, but hell it "sounds" a little illegal, so they make no big deal about it and add safety cards to their banned list. Because of one uninformed person who wants his 2 minutes of internet fame.

Bottom line, if it is not illegal then it is Julian Hensey's own bad conscience that makes him want to stop the online safety card trade. All others have to decide for themselves.

And this is none of Julian Hensey's business. Period.

Happy trading
Soren  santahat 



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2374 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 23):
P1ssed you off, did they?

YES!!! Big grin


User currently offlineAirmaillabel From Turkey, joined Dec 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

Guys,

I have purchased most of my collection from eBay. Still, when there is a safety card in the seat pocket which should be in my collection (but missing) I get it. Sometimes I ask for it and the crew give it to me, sometimes I don't.

What I don't understand is that being an eBay user for so many years, on several occasions I needed to contact for eBay help and the Help link always asks me questions to categorise my problem, if available leads me to FAQ section, if not leads me to write and explain my problem and they reply by e-mail. On no occasions I had the chance to learn a phone number to contact personally on the phone. I wonder how Julian managed that.

Another thing that I don't understand is how eBay will follow if that specific type of aircraft is still flying with that airline or not. They can not check with the airline every time some one lists a safety card. They can not ask for a receipt or invoice that proves the listed item was not stolen but paid for. Nobody keeps invoices. So how will eBay follow it up?

A.K.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

Quoting Airmaillabel (Reply 44):
They can not ask for a receipt or invoice that proves the listed item was not stolen but paid for. Nobody keeps invoices. So how will eBay follow it up?

My guess is that as long it's not causing a significant problem for the airlines, they won't. If aircraft were routinely departing with tens of safety cards missing I could understand them wanting to take measures.

Again, I wouldn't take one but if there wasn't one for my seat, I'd read the one next to me but how many passengers do actually read them? It seems to me that the problem is one of cost and inconvenience to the airline, as they're obliged to provide them, not one of safety.

I don't agree that the airlines "invite" you to take them but is it any worse than stealing beer mats from a pub, as long as it's just the odd one that takes a walk?


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8178 times:

Quoting Airmaillabel (Reply 44):
On no occasions I had the chance to learn a phone number to contact personally on the phone.

I'm sure ebay has at least one phone somewhere in their operation, but apparently not for customer service, as I have never seen a phone number anywhere on their site either. Perhaps when he used the word "talked", he meant that it was via e-mail, but again, his lack of response leads me to believe that this was a fishing expedition, and quite a successful one at that.

There is LOTS of "airline memorabilia" on ebay. Until an airline sues ebay, or criminal charges of some sort are filed against them or something of that nature occurs, no one at ebay will raise an eyebrow, as these cards are not creating any problem for them, only money.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineAirmaillabel From Turkey, joined Dec 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Hey,

Yesterday I flew from Helsinki to Istanbul on a Turkish Airlines (THY) A320 and saw that they've placed a bunch of safety cards on the seperator between the business class area and the pilot cabin.

It's a very good application because in this case people don't have to steal the one in the seat pocket but can get one from the bunch which is placed for those people who are interested. I even got up, got them all in my lap, sorted them out according to their dates and picked the one that's missing in my collection  Smile

Ali

PS: I also took a photo of the bunch but don't know how to add a photo to a message Sad


User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5489 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7826 times:

Quoting Airmaillabel (Reply 47):
It's a very good application because in this case people don't have to steal the one in the seat pocket but can get one from the bunch which is placed for those people who are interested. I even got up, got them all in my lap, sorted them out according to their dates and picked the one that's missing in my collection

And I'm sure that's EXACTLY what they are there for.  sarcastic 

Quoting DreamsUnited (Reply 17):
I personally think that a flight on an airliner is not complete until you take the safety card and a vomit bag, the airline owes it to you after stuffing you in like that

Uh sorry pal, but the aircraft isn't your personal stash of airline supplies. All they owe to you is getting you from point A to point B safetly. You chose to fly on them, they didn't force you on lol. Basicly your saying if you go to a movie and it's completely full, your going to go and steal some popcorn because they owe it to you because it's so crowded??  rotfl 


User currently offlineB727-200 From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1051 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

OK, OK...I confess. I took a safety card from an airline seat  gasp 

However, it was the last ever flight of an Ansett Boeing 727-200, so I figured they did not need them anymore  crying 

Oh, by the way Julian, I called your local EPA and told them that you were using oxygen that you have no legal right to...


User currently offlineGofly From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 1727 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6866 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Oooo errr... we've found the A.net rebels...

 Wink



Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6777 times:



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 16):
It would sound more like the sticker near the smoke detector in the lav. Instead, the text on the safety card "kindly" asks the passenger not to take one, sometimes even ends with a "please", and even if they put in the occasional "forbidden", there is no law behind that.

I'll be sure to be much more specific next time I ask a house guest to "please not take my TV with you when you leave."

Seriously, in most cultures, taking something that was not formally given to you is viewed poorly. Most would agree you don't need to tell someone not to take your property just to ensure that it is not taken.

That said, its a trivial issue in the grand scheme of things, and it is your choice--I respect the desire of folks to collect safety cards, and if you are comfortable with getting them that way, fine. Just don't use bad logic to try and justify it.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
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