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How Real Is FS 2004 And FSX Inflight Icing?  
User currently offlineVIflyer From US Virgin Islands, joined May 1999, 501 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17640 times:

I searched high and low for this answer and I haven't been able to find and answer. So the simple question is how realistic is icing in FS 2004 and FSX? I currently use Active Sky 6 to generate my FS weather.

Thanks in advance and if this topic had been answered before I apologize but I searched.

Vi


I reject your reality and subsitute my own
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3509 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 17642 times:

It's not even modeled. You could fly LHR-SYD unscathed without ever flipping the de-ice switches. It may be modeled in some of the payware a/c that simulate failures, but I haven't checked.


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineCVGpilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 588 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17594 times:

Man, I never thought it was myself, and have never seen any indication that its simulated. Check this out tho. FS9 Airspeed Indicater (by Cessna057 Jan 15 2007 in Aviation Hobby)


Globally Yours
User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17586 times:

I've had it simulated, your airspeed and altitude can go dodgy thats it, although in most addon aircraft (freeware or payware) they auto turn on the De-ice at a certain altitude.

Rgds --James--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17567 times:

Yes but talking to a captain i dound out that from his 32 years of flying he has turned on nacelle anti ice only four times! on the 747 and wing anti ice 0 times.
This is because it is to cold at ex. FL340 for any moisture so no moisture means nothing to freeze!

Sadly in the default FS planes Ice conditions will make th airspeed indicator on the default go to 0 even though it is unrealistic.

So as you can see at least for the 747-400 ice conditions requiring the anti ice switch are very rare!

BTW i fly the PMDG 744 and that is the procedur in my manual and it tells me that only if the icing warnings come up i should turn on anti ice.

Leo  Smile



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17562 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
Yes but talking to a captain i dound out that from his 32 years of flying he has turned on nacelle anti ice only four times! on the 747 and wing anti ice 0 times.

But what about pitot heat? I'm sure I've heard ground crew talking about how hot they can get so I guess they must be heated quite often.


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17552 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
Yes but talking to a captain i dound out that from his 32 years of flying he has turned on nacelle anti ice only four times! on the 747 and wing anti ice 0 times

That is almost impossable

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
So as you can see at least for the 747-400 ice conditions requiring the anti ice switch are very rare!

It dosen't matter what you are flying, if you fly into icing conditions the plane will take on ice.

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
This is because it is to cold at ex. FL340 for any moisture so no moisture means nothing to freeze!

Who ever told you this dosent know a thing about flying. Icing happens mostly in the lower altatudes


User currently offlineLYRFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17535 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Who ever told you this dosent know a thing about flying. Icing happens mostly in the lower altatudes

I don't understand your response to Qantas744ER. Is FL340 a low alttitude? Not in my book, and my logical sense tells me he is right. There is no moisture in this alttitude as the temperature at FL340 is always below 0c no matter where on earth you are.

[Edited 2007-01-22 20:40:29]

User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17523 times:

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 7):
I don't understand your response to Qantas744ER. Is FL340 a low alttitude? Not in my book, and my logical sense tells me he is right. There is no moisture in this alttitude as the temperature at FL340 is always below 0c no matter where on earth you are.

Thankyou Big grin

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Who ever told you this dosent know a thing about flying. Icing happens mostly in the lower altatudes

BTW the wing anti ice is very rare ont he 747-400 because the dumped air from the valves will pass over the wings and get the ice off and if that don't work the pilot will have to descent!

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
It dosen't matter what you are flying, if you fly into icing conditions the plane will take on ice.

Yes but you need to understand that when the plane passes 10000 feet for example and there are icing conditions the heat from the engines will be enough to get the ice of the nacelles! and at FL340 there is a minimal chance to encounter ice! it is simply to dry for moisture to even set on greater parts of the aircraft and again without moisture there is no ice!

Anti ice switches are used in the most rare cases if the engine heat is not enough... for nacelle ice removal.

Seems to me you have no idea my friend!

And only cause im 14 doesn't mean i have no idea about aviation!

BTW this goes for the 747-400!

leo  Wink



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17523 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 5):
But what about pitot heat? I'm sure I've heard ground crew talking about how hot they can get so I guess they must be heated quite often.

The Pitot's are heated automatically on the 747-400 Big grin

So no concern of ice there!

Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineLYRFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17515 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 8):
Thankyou Big grin

 Wink  thumbsup 


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 17506 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 8):
BTW the wing anti ice is very rare ont he 747-400 because the dumped air from the valves will pass over the wings and get the ice off and if that don't work the pilot will have to descent!
I have no idea what you are talking about "dumped air from the valves" Are you refering to bleed air?

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 8):
plane passes 10000 feet for example and there are icing conditions the heat from the engines will be enough to get the ice of the nacelles
Can you explain this mysterious process to me. I seem to have missed it during my engineering studies.

If you are referring to bleed air being used to heat the nacelles, that is the process that happens when you activate the anti-ice system. This is not an automatic process because when you use bleed air to heat the nacelles you take away ffrom engine performance.

[Edited 2007-01-22 22:16:39]

User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17484 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):

Jets can climb and descend very quickly between the ground and moisture-free high altitudes, so I don't doubt the captain's claim.

And if you think 34,000 ft is a low altitude, I can only imagine how high you are right now.  Wink



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17478 times:

Quoting AC773 (Reply 12):
And if you think 34,000 ft is a low altitude, I can only imagine how high you are right now.

Exactly where did I say 34,000 is a low altitude? I said

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Who ever told you this doesn't know a thing about flying. Icing happens mostly in the lower altitudes

Thus not at 34,000 except on RARE occasions. You people need to do some research on the topic before you start casting dispersions. I promise once you do you will feel awfully silly.


User currently offlineLYRFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17470 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 13):

Thus not at 34,000 except on RARE occasions. You people need to do some research on the topic before you start casting dispersions. I promise once you do you will feel awfully silly.

You do the research for us since you're the one to claim this. I'd like to hear about those rare occasions when the temperature at FL340 is above 0 degrees celsius

[Edited 2007-01-22 23:43:31]

User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3708 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17466 times:
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You are overlooking one thing, icing conditions consists of visible moisture a a temp below +10 Deg C. That means as you are climbing through cloud or descending through cloud you are in icing conditions.

Believe me I have had to consider this when MEL'ing defects on 1-11's, DC10's, 747's (Classic & 400), 757's, A320's, & A340's

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
Yes but talking to a captain i dound out that from his 32 years of flying he has turned on nacelle anti ice only four times! on the 747 and wing anti ice 0 times.
This is because it is to cold at ex. FL340 for any moisture so no moisture means nothing to freeze!

I wouldn't believe a word this guy (the pilot) said if it was me.


User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17460 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 8):
plane passes 10000 feet for example and there are icing conditions the heat from the engines will be enough to get the ice of the nacelles

Ok so one more time  Wink

Lets say a 744 is crossing FL140 and the ICE warning message goes on, on the EICAS display! the pilot will then have two options.. continue for another time period until they reach alitude without ice conditions or turn on the nacelle anti ice! The reason nacelle anti-ice is hardly ever use don the 744 is because the ICE message on the EICAS will close to never come up because minimal ice will already be removed by the heat the engines produce!

So i there is no ICE warning there is no need to turn on nacelle anti-ice.

When the switches are not "on" this means the anti-ice is on "automatic" this does not mean the system will activate automatically but will detect ice by itself!

Wing anti-ice is even more rare because moisture over the wings on the 744 due to its wing design is unlikely. The Wing-anti ice will dump bleed air over the wing to get the ice off. This again will only be activated at a ICE message in the EICAS.

In the end the ICE message is very very rare and so both of these are close to never used..

Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineQantas744ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1296 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17457 times:

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 15):
Yes but talking to a captain i dound out that from his 32 years of flying he has turned on nacelle anti ice only four times! on the 747 and wing anti ice 0 times.

Im sorry for this one.. he has been flying for 32 years and is on the 747-400 since 8 years and fly's for CV based in LUX

Leo



Happiness is V1 in Lagos
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3708 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 17439 times:
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Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 16):
The reason nacelle anti-ice is hardly ever use don the 744 is because the ICE message on the EICAS will close to never come up because minimal ice will already be removed by the heat the engines produce!

The heat generated by the engine comes out of the back. The ice protection is required on the intake lip which is cold.

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 16):
Wing anti-ice is even more rare because moisture over the wings on the 744 due to its wing design is unlikely. The Wing-anti ice will dump bleed air over the wing to get the ice off. This again will only be activated at a ICE message in the EICAS.

Hot air is not 'dumped' over the wing. Hot air is ducted through spray ducts in the LE of the wing otbd of the inboard engines which heat up the leading edge from the inside.

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 16):
This again will only be activated at a ICE message in the EICAS.

The only time the Crew see an Ice message is when the system is not operating correctly or it is selected on manually with an TAT of >+12


User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 17417 times:

Ok, I've been a real pilot for about a year and a sim pilot for about 4. I've had much more real ice problems thatn virtual ones. The default weather hardly ever has ice, even in the real world weather. VATSIM's real world weather, however, has it fairly acuratly shown. I was extreemly surprised.


Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineMidEx216 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17394 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 13):
Thus not at 34,000 except on RARE occasions.

You just said exactly what he was saying, but telling him he was wrong in saying it.



"Cue the Circus Music!"
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17376 times:

I give up, believe what you want. If you ever want to lean something go over to tech/ops

User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17373 times:

Just to get back to the topic at hand the simple answer is:

FS9 / FSX has some quite elaborate software (the weather engine) to simulate an area of 'icing' conditions. You need to consider that previous statement very carefully. How the aircraft model reacts to that environmental zone and how IT tells the simulator what it should be doing is the domain of the aircraft model and all the systems associated with it. In most cases a default aircraft will react in these zones in a default way. The level of realism therefore is related to the care taken to accurately model the aircraft handling in all environments. FS does a reasonable job of simulating the environments in which the aircraft flies but it does not know anything about how the aircraft is going to behave, just like real life.

Hope that helps.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9546 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17371 times:

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 9):
The Pitot's are heated automatically on the 747-400

So no concern of ice there!

So I assume you take back this remark  Smile ...

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 4):
Sadly in the default FS planes Ice conditions will make th airspeed indicator on the default go to 0 even though it is unrealistic.

On the default Cessna, for example, if you don't turn on pitot heat and it ices up, your airspeed indicator won't work, which is realistic. If you're saying that having to switch on pitot heat manually on a 747 is unrealistic, that's an entirely different matter.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 13):
Thus not at 34,000 except on RARE occasions. You people need to do some research on the topic before you start casting dispersions. I promise once you do you will feel awfully silly.

That ties in with other comments in Tech/Ops. An experienced 747 pilot there quoted similar statistics for wing/nacelle anti-icing at cruise levels. He didn't say it's never used at lower altitudes.


User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17366 times:

I do notice that if one of my aircraft's speed gauges go to 0 and I put the pitot heat on it returns to normal.


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User currently offlineJasond From Australia, joined Jul 2009, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17297 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 24):
I do notice that if one of my aircraft's speed gauges go to 0 and I put the pitot heat on it returns to normal.

This is because FS is simulating the build up of ice around the pitot tube which is essentially an air pressure sensor. In real life the tube has a coil of wire wrapped around it which is heated when electricity is applied to it melting the ice, this happens when you turn on the pitot heat switch. If the tube is blocked by ice it no longer senses air pressure which translates to a zero airspeed indication, generally anyway. What FS is reasonably good at as well is reacting to a partial blockage or an increasing / decreasing blockage, which depending on how well the airspeed guage is modelled, will translate into erractic readings such as wild deviations in air speed indication. Gauges in the FS world are interesting beasts because in order to accurately display a reading they are coded to interrogate the myriad of variables that are made available to it from the FS token variable system. Token variables are placeholders for every bit of information that the SIM engine needs to accurately draw all the objects in the 3D space as many times a second as your hardware will allow. At last count I think there were about 400 of these although I am led to believe that a few still remain unpublished but the rest are documented in the SDK. A typical example would be that when SIM engine is calculating and re-drawing everything in the 3D space it will interrogate information in the aircraft container to factor in the design and behaviour of the aircraft in its calculations. I think sometimes people forget just how much calculation is required when they have a moan about frame rates and so on. The gauge is simply a display device that interrogates particular token variables that would have been updated during that process and displays it in a format you will understand as a virtual pilot. Pete Dowson's FSUIPC created a revolution in FS by creating an in-process piece of software (running in the FS application space) that interrogated these token variables and made them available to 3rd party applications. Simple in concept but very clever in practice.


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