Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/aviation_photography/read.main/176590/

Topic: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: PUnmuth@VIE
Posted 2005-04-15 13:28:49 and read 25343 times.

In the last week we all learned that the site needs an update on what is allowed and what not in terms of manipulations.
Also we learned that there needs to be guideline on suspensions. The screeners have discussed this and Johan has finally given his approval to post it and his agreement to the content also.
===========

MANIPULATIONS
Allowed manipulations on on photos


  • Remove colorcasts (especially neccesary on slides)
  • Contrast adjustment
  • Level adjustment
  • angle adjustment
  • sharpening
  • crop
  • Cloning out dust spots.

Not allowed manipulations on photos:

  • overusage of highlight/shadow feature so that halos appear
  • colourcast introduction
  • aplying to much neatimage / blur .
  • Inconsistent colour cast throughout image
  • Adding motion-blur in post-processing
  • Falsely blurring background to create artificially short depth-of-field
  • Any cloning which is apparent in the final image (e.g rectangular blocks of sky, repeated patterns in tarmac, etc)
  • Cloning out parts of the original image like signs blocking wheels,
    poles in front or the back of the aircraft, bluring out faces, ...
  • adding landscape or sky or parts of the aircraft when image is too small after angle adjustment or for any other reason to be cropped properly
  • Composite of multiple images
  • Fabrication of aircraft registration, titles, etc.
  • Cloning out of aircraft registration, titles, etc.

Those manipulations will result in a badmanipulation rejection including a badpersonal where a warning about the manipulation is described on the first occurance. No personal e-mail will be sent. Everything is in the rejection E-Mail.

SUSPENSIONS
Reasons for suspension, including deletion from all other photos currently being in the Q.

  • Repeated uploading photos with manipulations falling into the not allowed category.
  • Reuploading shots without any or with unaedequat adjustments
  • Contiunous uploading of doubles, or deliberately putting a false date to avoid baddouble

Reasons for immediate Suspension without prior notification

  • Manipulation on hit counters
  • Grossly rude or offensive behaviour
  • Uploading of stolen shots AKA Copyright infringement
  • Fraudulant behaviour that interferes with the running of the site

Duration of supensions:

  • 1 week for first suspension
  • 2 weeks for 2nd
  • 1 month for 3rd
  • 3 months on every following
  • and on headscreener / Johan decision ban can be extended.

Exceptions for duration

  • Hit counter: This will be decided with the boss when it is found out
  • Grossly rude or offensive behaviour --> 3 months
  • Uploading of stolen shots AKA Copyright infringement --> 3 months
  • Fraudulant behaviour that interferes with the running of the site


We reserve the right on issueing a suspension from uploading immediately when the screeners decide the photo is manipulated behind acceptable limits and if the uploader has been warned already before. If there should arise questions about the screeners decision you are welcome to mail the original camera file to the headscreeners and the crew will discuss the matter out of public. Pushing pressure on the screeners in the forums will result in the suspension not being discussed.

[Edited 2005-04-15 13:35:56]

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Qantas077
Posted 2005-04-15 13:46:09 and read 25313 times.

sounds fair enough, thank god i only know how to do the allowed edits in that list! i'm not good enough with photoshop to even know how add motion blur!  Embarrassment

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Paulc
Posted 2005-04-15 13:58:04 and read 25298 times.

Interesting & useful set of rules there but surely it is the final image that is being screened not how it was arrived at. If the manipulation is done in such as way as to be invisible yet still be accurate in terms of information (ie location / reg / date etc) then what is wrong with that. Am thinking of the cloning restrictions mainly as many people will have some obstruction in the wrong place which ruin what could be an acceptable shot.

Photographic organisations / clubs etc judge the image presented, not the computer skills or darkroom skills of the photographer which is why darkroom and computer produced images are not treated as separate categories.

Maybe a section could be considered for the more creative images as it would showcase the talents of those photographers with a more creative side and are prepared to be honest about it.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: LHRSIMON
Posted 2005-04-15 14:04:57 and read 25288 times.

Well done Peter  Smile  Smile

Simon C

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Sulman
Posted 2005-04-15 14:06:40 and read 25285 times.

Good work Peter & crew, what a positive step.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Skymonster
Posted 2005-04-15 14:10:54 and read 25274 times.

Paul, if you clone out something that obstructs the airplane in any way, you are effectively reconstructing a part of the airplane digitally and that's unacceptable. If you choose to clone out things like lamp posts that don't obstruct the subject, that's also not acceptable as far as a.net is concerned either.

If you clone out something like a lamp post so well that the screeners can't tell it was ever there in the first place... Well, that is not condoned either, and I guess its your risk if you choose to do that. If the screeners can't tell an object was ever there maybe you'll get away with it, or maybe someone knows the location you shot from (or refers to other pictures from the same place) and will investigate why that lamp post is missing. Someone DID get caught like that a while ago.

Remember that evidence of deliberate flouting of rules is likely to be looked on less favourably than a first-offence / mistake.

Andy

[Edited 2005-04-15 14:11:36]

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Fergulmcc
Posted 2005-04-15 14:11:23 and read 25271 times.

Quoting LHRSIMON (Reply 3):
Well done Peter



Quoting Sulman (Reply 4):
Good work Peter & crew, what a positive step.

Hear hear,  praise 

Fergul Big grin

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Liskatze
Posted 2005-04-15 14:23:41 and read 25254 times.

Peter,

sounds really good, I hope everyone will read and understand this giudeline. One question to point "cloning out":

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Thread starter):
Cloning out parts of the original image like signs blocking wheels,
poles in front or the back of the aircraft, bluring out faces, ...

What's about the single bird in the sky, what's about the small piece of a building in the pic's corner, a piece of wire or cable in the air? Will cloning be allowed when done well and NEVER touch the aircraft itself?

Or forget the shot as it will be a badmotive and put it in the personal collection?

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Thread starter):
Those manipulations will result in a badmanipulation rejection including a badpersonal where a warning about the manipulation is described on the first occurance. No personal e-mail will be sent. Everything is in the rejection E-Mail.

A warning would be a fantastic idea, exact that's what I have missed a few days ago  Wink. Badpersonal in the rejection mail should be enough, anyone here should know, that he must look for a personal comment of a screener in this case.

I hope never ever any photographer will become banned here without information about the exact reason and - especially - the picture in question.

Well done, Peter and the whole Screeners-Crew!

Anne

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: PUnmuth@VIE
Posted 2005-04-15 14:33:12 and read 25241 times.

Quoting Liskatze (Reply 7):
What's about the single bird in the sky, what's about the small piece of a building in the pic's corner, a piece of wire or cable in the air? Will cloning be allowed when done well and NEVER touch the aircraft itself?

See reply no 5.

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 5):
If you choose to clone out things like lamp posts that don't obstruct the subject, that's also not acceptable as far as a.net is concerned either ...... maybe someone knows the location you shot from (or refers to other pictures from the same place) and will investigate why that lamp post is missing. Someone DID get caught like that a while ago.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Psych
Posted 2005-04-15 14:36:13 and read 25234 times.

I'd like to echo the comments of approval for this work - well done to everyone involved. Good to see that clarity.

As we have discussed elsewhere, there will always be 'what about.....' and 'what if...........' I can't see any way around that. But this does help.

Will what Peter has placed here now also be available elsewhere on the site e.g. the Upload FAQ section? Are there grounds for creating a new section on rules/guidelines alone, rather than them being included with all the other important issues about uploading? Sorry for jumping the gun if you already have this in hand.

Paul

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Skymonster
Posted 2005-04-15 14:38:33 and read 25233 times.

A while ago, a photographer removed some lamp posts from an image. Shots taken before AND after from the same location by other photographers clearly showed the lamp posts in place. One screener was astute enough to notice the missing lamp posts and wondered where they'd gone. Very close scruitiny of the photograph which had that unexpected void in the sky did reveal the offence, and you can guess what happened next...

Andy

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2005-04-15 14:41:23 and read 25230 times.

Peter and the Screener team....
Great work, it makes things easier when there are guidlines and at first glance these look pretty good.

I think in one of the other threads.. someone said whatever the guidlines someone will violate them.. the thing is at least we and the Crew know now when that happens.

Great progress

Regards

Chris

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Paulc
Posted 2005-04-15 14:48:36 and read 25226 times.

Andy,

so are you saying that an image with an obstruction (but not hiding the aircraft in any way) would be accepted if the quality was ok ?

(will try to include the odd lamp post now)  Smile

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2005-04-15 20:30:06 and read 25148 times.

Thanks guys, good job.

Willem

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2005-04-15 22:24:39 and read 25102 times.

Leaves noticeable room for error on part of the screeners.

One person's colourcast is another person's high saturation. If someone has an image taken in some weird light a screener might think he applied a colourcast to make it look special...
Result: someone gets banned for uploading something special...

Birds in the sky: I've had pictures rejected for having dustmotes in the sky that were birds in the past. If we're no longer allowed to remove them...

I agree that deliberate manipulation to show something that wasn't there (or remove something that was there) should not be allowed, but one has to be extremely careful to not conclude things weren't as they seem because what one is looking at is not what one is used to seeing.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: TZ
Posted 2005-04-15 22:37:38 and read 25091 times.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 14):
Leaves noticeable room for error on part of the screeners.

OK.... thanks for that Jwenting.

Bottom line is that this is NOT a change of policy from the screening team, or a re-write of the rules. We continue to apply consistent standards.

This publication is a set of guidelines to help you understand what is, or is not, acceptable. We created these written guidelines after a lot of pressure from the forum participants.

Jwenting, would you rather we didn't bother, or do you fancy drafting a set of guidelines yourself?

Respectfully yours,

Tamsin

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Kukkudrill
Posted 2005-04-15 22:45:50 and read 25080 times.

Well done all.

My only suggestion would be to make a distinction between mistakes in post-processing, e.g. too much use of Neat Image, and deliberate attempts to mislead e.g. cloning out obstructions or adding fake motion blur. I can agree with bans for the latter but not the former. I'm sure banning people for mistakes in post-processing isn't the intention (right?) but it would be good to make it clear.

Charles

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: JAT74L
Posted 2005-04-15 22:52:01 and read 25074 times.

Nice rules and guidelines. Just remember to treat the photographer with some form of respect/acceptance of their intellect when you decide to invoke them.

No one should DELIBERATELY flaunt these rules - if they repeatedly do so, ban them for ever I say.

But enter into some sort of comms with the individual before you make your mind up in future. This game isn't always clear cut.

Now let's all be friends.

Regards

John

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: F9Widebody
Posted 2005-04-15 23:04:11 and read 25063 times.

Good work guys!

The only part I might somewhat disagree with is below:

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Thread starter):
Cloning out parts of the original image like signs blocking wheels,
poles in front or the back of the aircraft, bluring out faces, ...

I haven't ever done it, but what would be the problem with blurring the face of a pilot in a small GA a/c to avoid a badpeople?

Best Regards

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: TZ
Posted 2005-04-15 23:24:54 and read 25052 times.

Quoting F9Widebody (Reply 18):
I haven't ever done it, but what would be the problem with blurring the face of a pilot in a small GA a/c to avoid a badpeople?

That would not generally be reason for badpeople, although I'm sure exceptions exist.

If you deliberately blur anybody's face that will be badmanipulation.

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 16):
My only suggestion would be to make a distinction between mistakes in post-processing, e.g. too much use of Neat Image, and deliberate attempts to mislead

We see enough images to be able to clearly distinguish between the two. "badneatimage" still falls into the rejection for badmanipulation because, quite literally, the image has been manipulated beyond acceptable bounds of reality. If somebody's had dozens of rejects for that, over many weeks, and we get tired of explaining that Neat Image is the problem, then a suspension may be on the cards for them. Repeat offenses and all that.

Quoting JAT74L (Reply 17):
But enter into some sort of comms with the individual before you make your mind up in future. This game isn't always clear cut.

Sorry John, but that's just not possible. With 30,000-50,000 screenings per week, it's just not possible to get into email exchanges on a consistent on-going basis, every time we believe the rules have been broken in an excessive manner. Sorry, but if I find a picture where there's things been cloned out, and I KNOW FOR SURE they should have been there, it's a ban with no warning. The two recent incidents (discussed in great depth elsewhere on this forum) are on the fringes of what gets banned, so nobody should be under the misprehension that those are typical, they are not. We see rediculous things, stolen images, and some people who (despite lots of time and effort) will not stop uploading fabricated images. That's the typical scenario for a ban.

Tamsin

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: JohnJ
Posted 2005-04-15 23:42:12 and read 25023 times.

How about window glass reflection that doesn't affect the subject aircraft at all? I have a nice night shot I'd like to upload, but there's a "ghost" of a light pole next to the actual light pole in the image. This was caused by terminal window glass reflection. The reflection was an artificially-induced element of the photo, and there was really no way to avoid it. It can easily be cloned out, but I suspect this violates these rules. Am I right?

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: AeroWeanie
Posted 2005-04-15 23:58:38 and read 25005 times.

Shouldn't this thread have one of those flaming icons? This is important stuff.

Thanks for the explicit rules.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Jumbojim747
Posted 2005-04-16 00:01:44 and read 25003 times.

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 10):
while ago, a photographer removed some lamp posts from an image. Shots taken before AND after from the same location by other photographers clearly showed the lamp posts in place. One screener was astute enough to notice the missing lamp posts and wondered where they'd gone. Very close scruitiny of the photograph which had that unexpected void in the sky did reveal the offence, and you can guess what happened next...

What about if for some reason an object was removed by airport authorities and the screeners didn't know about it and someone shot a pic of an aircraft without the object.
Yes people can clone things out but sometimes things do get removed .
What would happen in this situation.?
I also think this is a big step forward and i thank the screeneres and all involved for it.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: JAT74L
Posted 2005-04-16 00:02:04 and read 25003 times.

Tamsin,
Your continuous communication and level headed approach to this subject is an example to all. I have untold respect for the management personel of this site and for the work that they do. In such a subjective field there is always bound to be some sort of conflict but, with this subject being so heavily debated (with good steerage from yourself) and a consistent approach on both sides I have some hope for the future.

Thank you.

Regards

John

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2005-04-16 00:32:59 and read 24986 times.

Quoting Jumbojim747 (Reply 22):
What about if for some reason an object was removed by airport authorities and the screeners didn't know about it and someone shot a pic of an aircraft without the object.

I think in this case, a note to the screeners, if you know something has changed or appeal with explanation if rejected.
My 2 thoughts, it serves little purpose to pick holes in these guidelines.. they are just that guidelines. Secondly let's face it, in my experience the authorities are unlikely to REMOVE any obstacles to our picture taking!!

regards

Chris

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: TZ
Posted 2005-04-16 23:21:35 and read 24850 times.

Quoting JAT74L (Reply 23):
Your continuous communication and level headed approach to this subject is an example to all

Thanks John. If 30 minutes of my time on this foruim is worth tens or hundreds of individuals saving 30 minutes of their precious time, then it's my time well spent.

Tamsin

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Kukkudrill
Posted 2005-04-17 21:55:30 and read 24734 times.

Quoting Tamsin (Reply 19):
We see enough images to be able to clearly distinguish between the two. "badneatimage" still falls into the rejection for badmanipulation because, quite literally, the image has been manipulated beyond acceptable bounds of reality. If somebody's had dozens of rejects for that, over many weeks, and we get tired of explaining that Neat Image is the problem, then a suspension may be on the cards for them. Repeat offenses and all that.

OK, I can agree with that ... provided that the person concerned gets a badmanipulation rejection and not a badquality. According to a previous thread overuse of Neat Image attracts rejection for badquality, which would of course leave the offender none the wiser:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...tion_photography/read.main/172035/

I fully agree with JAT47L and with StealthZ.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Key
Posted 2005-04-20 12:02:38 and read 24583 times.

One additional note maybe. Indeed it is so very very tempting to edit out that lamp post or its reflection, but it remains part of the art of (aviation) photography not to have it there in the first place... Personally I could set up a whole 'frustration archive' but I try to learn from these things and look even better next time.
On the other hand, there are plenty of places to present enhanced images, more like productions than 'just' photos if you will, and have them appreciated like that. However, this site obviously is not one of them - but that makes it all the more rewarding to have your photos accepted on Anet.

Erik

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: DLKAPA
Posted 2005-04-27 01:04:34 and read 24474 times.

Quoting Paulc (Reply 2):
If the manipulation is done in such as way as to be invisible yet still be accurate in terms of information (ie location / reg / date etc) then what is wrong with that.

Yeah I have a question about that one. Often times, I go down to the local FBO to shoot aircraft parked on the ramp. I've never been turned down by a pilot that I've asked, but often times they request the photo not show the tail number. This has and will continue to keep many excellent photos out of the database.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: AJ
Posted 2005-04-27 02:58:43 and read 24453 times.

Well done guys, I'm glad this has been cleared up. My ban now over I'll still continue to upload, and contrary to popular belief my new Emirates air to air is (of course) kosher!

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Cathay112
Posted 2005-04-27 04:27:01 and read 24444 times.

C'mon AJ, you can give it up now? I know it's a model held up by fishing wire - I've checked my own EK 773 model and they're identical!!!!!!

Onya buddy!

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: OD720
Posted 2005-04-27 09:49:48 and read 24394 times.

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 5):
Someone DID get caught like that a while ago.

Scary!

Quoting Skymonster (Reply 10):
Very close scruitiny of the photograph which had that unexpected void in the sky did reveal the offence, and you can guess what happened next...

And what exactly happened? Is he serving his time now?

Seriously though, the new guidelines are fair and I expect photographers to follow them. The site wants to leave everything "fake" out for it's reputation. As we know, so many great photos are quated to be fakes on other discussion forums by many that don't know a thing about photography.

Keep the standards high and thanks to everyone involved.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: AJ
Posted 2005-04-28 06:35:28 and read 24337 times.

Smoke and mirrors Craigo, high tech stuff!

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Staffan
Posted 2005-04-28 21:09:16 and read 24271 times.

What about perspective adjustments on wide angle shots to get rid of sloping verticals? Or software that compensates for lens distortion?

Staffan

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Gary2880
Posted 2005-04-28 21:49:52 and read 24257 times.

sorry to add another 'what about'

but what about if you take a shot and theres a wee bit of fence in a corner are you allowed to clone that out if your not able to get rid of it by cropping?

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2005-04-28 22:19:39 and read 24245 times.

wee bit of fence in a corner are you allowed to clone that out if your not able to get rid of it by cropping?

No, sorry, this is not allowed.

What about perspective adjustments on wide angle shots to get rid of sloping verticals? Or software that compensates for lens distortion?

I would say this is okay, but I don't know if there is an 'official' position.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: LHRSIMON
Posted 2005-05-04 14:32:26 and read 24141 times.

I just got a badmanipulation rejection including a badpersonal    

Im at work so cannot view the bad personal so im a little concerned.....

I looked at the above rules and i have not edited in any of the "not allowed" area's.
The only one im not 100% sure about is the fact i used saturation +8 to give the color a little kick. I never thought that was a problem as on many previous threads on this forum the saturation feature has been spoken about. Or does this method now come under the colourcast introduction. If it does i appologise as i really did not know....

Anyway im 100% certain i did not do any cloning or anything else.... So as i don't want to be on a 1st warning as such do i email the original unedited image to the screening team to clear my name....

Im not happy 

Simon C

PS : Also while were on the subject does the "curves" feature come under the allowed category. I gather it comes under levels but can someone confirm as its a feature im trying to learn at the moment on PS7

[Edited 2005-05-04 15:06:39]

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: PUnmuth@VIE
Posted 2005-05-04 15:13:06 and read 24112 times.

Simon please read the rejection mail and the second mail i sent you before sending the image to us. You will see its not neccesary to do so. No Warning from our side.

Topic: RE: Manipulations / Supensions Guideline For All.
Username: LHRSIMON
Posted 2005-05-04 15:27:17 and read 24101 times.

Brilliant thanks Peter. Im very happy to hear its not a warning so will read the message/email when i get home  Smile

I know its not a matter of life and death but i really did not want a warning hanging over my head as I do try to be one of the helpfull good guys here on the site Big grin

Cheers
Simon C

PS : If someone can confirm if the following PS features are ok to use in edits i would be very greatfull as i cannot see them on the list.

1) Saturation
2) Curves
3) Selective color


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/