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Topic: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Paulianer
Posted 2005-11-29 18:35:39 and read 6378 times.

Hi guys,

just got a call from an agency, they want to use one of my photos for a major commercial campaign for a major european airline.

The want it on an exclusive basis with all usage right... the want to print adds in magazines, newspapers and even some "blow ups" or something like.

Any idea what to ask for?

Your help is really appreciated on this, they want a feedback till tomorrrow.

Thank you
Tobi

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2005-11-29 19:28:55 and read 6345 times.

If you are giving up all rights, and it is a major campaign, I would be looking for something in the 500-1000 Euro range, depending on how unique the shot is (IE can they get the same thing from someone else cheaper).

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: INNflight
Posted 2005-11-29 19:35:17 and read 6338 times.

Quoting Paulianer (Thread starter):
major european airline.

Any chance we're talking about Swiss Air Lines (respectively Swiss World Cargo) here?

cheers,
Florian

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Paulianer
Posted 2005-11-29 19:44:54 and read 6331 times.

yes Florian, you're right

Seems that the agency is bases in Hamburg, so its local business for me  Wink

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: INNflight
Posted 2005-11-29 19:48:55 and read 6327 times.

Quoting Paulianer (Reply 3):
yes Florian, you're right

Seems that the agency is bases in Hamburg, so its local business for me

Seems that they contact Austrian photographers too, so we'll see if the local gets it.  Wink

Check your mailbox!

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2005-11-29 19:55:04 and read 6319 times.

Well if they are contacting several photogs your chances of getting a decent pay day are slim. Seems some people like to give their shots away, all for the thrill of "seeing their name in print."

Makes me want to throw up.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: INNflight
Posted 2005-11-29 20:00:29 and read 6312 times.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
Makes me want to throw up.

My thoughts exactly... We'll see what happens. No way this is the big opportunety to make some good money.
Ah how I love bizjet companies, they know how to pay exclusevly.  blush 

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: StealthZ
Posted 2005-11-29 20:02:24 and read 6310 times.

Hey Royal,

A little advice, I have been contacted by a US software/services company that want to use a photo of mine in a 5000 print run brochure targeting the aviation industry, what do you think makes sense for that kind of sale?

I certainly don't want to make you throw up Big grin

Cheers

Chris

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2005-11-29 20:13:24 and read 6294 times.

Hey guys -

I received this e-mail as well! I'm probing them for info - but they are NOT using my image for free!

Let's stay in touch on this...

Drew

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Paulianer
Posted 2005-11-29 20:32:37 and read 6276 times.

Hi guys,

I just sent them an offer, based on the infos I've got here  Wink

And its not for free Big grin

thanks

Cheers
Tobi

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: LXLucien
Posted 2005-11-30 16:55:57 and read 6182 times.

Hi

I received it as well. I've answered yesterday, but still no reply...

so long
LXLucien

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Diezel
Posted 2005-11-30 23:12:13 and read 6139 times.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
Well if they are contacting several photogs your chances of getting a decent pay day are slim. Seems some people like to give their shots away, all for the thrill of "seeing their name in print."

I am sorry that that makes you want to throw up. Because what's wrong with that?

For most photogs on this site this is still a hobby and we are living in a free world, so I guess if one wants to give his/her photos away for free, so what? We do advertise our photos on this site for free.

Hmmm, on the other hand, if you are a good seller I can imagine why you want to throw up. Looking at the number of threads about this subject, isn't it time for a.net to think about some guidelines about this? For example: publishing example prices for magazines, tv and the lot. This could even be done by photographers who actually sell pictures to other parties. This would really help inexperienced photogs.

I'm even thinking aout a.net setting up a fund we could join for legal costs (i.e. if somebody uses a photo which was not authorized by the photog.)

Roel.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2005-11-30 23:53:54 and read 6119 times.

Quoting Diezel (Reply 11):
I'm even thinking aout a.net setting up a fund we could join for legal costs (i.e. if somebody uses a photo which was not authorized by the photog.)

I'd contribute to it. I own a business in the aviation industry, and one day I got a brochure from a fuel cells company trying to pitch their services to me - and in it were four of MY OWN photos from airliners.net! When I did meet the owner of that company, I informed him that his people had been violating copyright laws (God only knows how many times they have done it before). He sounded like he didn't believe me so I pulled up a.net on my laptop, and showed him a photo from that proposal. He said "Well who is this Freight-Dawg???" and I replied "YOU'RE LOOKIN AT HIM".  box 

Awkward to say the least - but he says he stopped stealing images.

Incidentally, he lost the deal to do the fuel cell services. Instant karma is a mother#&*%er.  yes 

Drew

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: INNflight
Posted 2005-12-01 14:16:56 and read 6084 times.

Did anybody get a reply from that lady so far?
I'm afraid they got a free-ride...

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Paulianer
Posted 2005-12-02 10:52:22 and read 6041 times.

Hi guys,

well they replied to me, I'm now in further discussions... but its not safe yet...

I'll keep you informed

Cheers from HAM
Tobi

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Chrisair
Posted 2005-12-02 21:27:29 and read 6007 times.

Quoting Diezel (Reply 11):
I am sorry that that makes you want to throw up. Because what's wrong with that?

For most photogs on this site this is still a hobby and we are living in a free world, so I guess if one wants to give his/her photos away for free, so what? We do advertise our photos on this site for free.

Well, let's look at this hobby from a business standpoint.

Let's say that you buy a 20D ($1200 USD) a nice lens or two ($3500 USD), some cards ($250 USD) a card reader ($50 USD). For camera gear you've now spent around $5,000 USD. I'm assuming that a person has a decent computer and an existing internet/cable connection.

Then you have to factor in the trip to the local airport. Depending on distance it can cost you between $15 and $50 USD in gas (or more). Plus your wear and tear on the car, the mileage etc. Not to mention food. So a one day trip to the local airport is, for our purposes here $30. We'll say you do a trip to the airport twice a month ($60 USD/month, $720/year).

So for a year, we'll say the hobby costs a person about $6,000/year. This isn't including trips out of state/country etc.

So, if you give your photos away for free, you're out $6,000 USD (probably much more).

Now, I'm not sure about anyone else, but I don't like losing $6,000.

It's good to see more people are asking for some payment. A few years ago, most people wouldn't have done this. It seems the word is getting out. Unfortunately though, for every one who quotes a fair price, 10 others will offer it for free just to see their name appear in size four font under a picture.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: DLKAPA
Posted 2005-12-02 21:30:29 and read 6005 times.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
Makes me want to throw up.

I agree. The sad thing is, that there's probably somebody not reading this board that will give it up for free.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: LxLucien
Posted 2005-12-06 10:12:40 and read 5920 times.

Also did not get an answer. I'll write her again today if she is still interested ... But it'll be like the other times: no answer  Smile  Sad

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Paulianer
Posted 2005-12-07 17:34:36 and read 5870 times.

Hi guys,

well, just want to let you know that they didn't got a free ride Big grin

Cheers from HAM
Tobi

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Jamesbuk
Posted 2005-12-11 00:39:53 and read 5815 times.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 15):
Let's say that you buy a 20D ($1200 USD) a nice lens or two ($3500 USD), some cards ($250 USD) a card reader ($50 USD). For camera gear you've now spent around $5,000 USD.

i dont know many people that buy a brand spanking new camera and everything to go with it a year but i get your drift

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Chrisair
Posted 2005-12-11 01:31:00 and read 5802 times.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 19):

i dont know many people that buy a brand spanking new camera and everything to go with it a year but i get your drift

I assume you're talking about buying a new camera every year. Even if you don't buy a new camera yearly, you're still out money. You still have to pay that $5,000...and last I checked money doesn't grow on plants. So, why go into debt just to show mommy a photo credit?

My bank doesn't take photo credits and deposit them in my account. (If they did, I'd be a millionaire).

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Maiznblu_757
Posted 2005-12-11 04:45:45 and read 5791 times.

Quoting Chrisair (Reply 20):
So, why go into debt just to show mommy a photo credit?

My bank doesn't take photo credits and deposit them in my account.

 thumbsup 

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2005-12-12 10:47:30 and read 5753 times.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 19):
i dont know many people that buy a brand spanking new camera and everything to go with it a year but i get your drift

You'd be surprised...
One example I know is a guy who bought a D30, D60, 1d, 10D, 300D, 20D, and now I think has a 5d in that order, all as soon as released.
Another bought a D100, F5, S2, S3, and now has a D2x. And that's just the Nikon gear. Before that he had a line of Canon gear of similar length.
Third had F3, F4, F5, DSC14n, and now D2x. In his case at least 2 of each.

They don't replace their lenses every year AFAIK, but do regularly buy new ones in ranges they already own other lenses.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: United_fan
Posted 2005-12-13 03:58:37 and read 5700 times.

While we're on the subject of photo sales,what is the going rate for magazine requests ? I got a request for one of my FF scrap-shots in VCV .

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: JFK
Posted 2005-12-13 04:46:28 and read 5697 times.

I got an email from a Chinese aviation magazine requesting the use of one of my photos in return for a free copy of the magazine. I told them I can't read Chinese so the free magazine is no good to me and it would cost them $30USD if they wanted the photo. In the end they didn't cough up with the money and I don't care.

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: Chrisair
Posted 2005-12-13 05:56:27 and read 5683 times.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 23):
While we're on the subject of photo sales,what is the going rate for magazine requests ? I got a request for one of my FF scrap-shots in VCV .

You (and everyone else) might be interested with this site:

http://www.nppa.org/professional_dev.../business_practices/cdb/index.html

Topic: RE: Need Your Help With A Photo Sale-urgent!
Username: YukonTrader
Posted 2005-12-13 16:17:48 and read 5655 times.

Just a tipp for those among you who didn't seel a deal, or keep getting requests with no further answer: In the print media business, it is under some circumstances customary to also ask for/grant a small fee to an editor/photographer whose work was in the end not chosen for print or publication. Typically, these circumstances involve that

- you have been contacted with a request for some of your materials
- you have answered by sending the agency/media a selection of your photos, or some text
- for which you had to invest some of your time.

The lump sum (for the Germans and Swiss in this thread, the German term is "Ausfall-Honorar") is ment to compensate you for your efforts putting together that material in answer to the original request. I can't promise you anything, but if you're among those that didn't hear from the agency again, send them another e-mail (it doesn't hurt to mention that you heard about the dear collegue who made the deal instead), asking politely - politely! - what the company policy is with regards to compensating you for the 1-x hours of your percious work time invested into putting together the materials you sent them following their request...

Case examples from my own experience of 25 years of shooting aircraft pictures:

- A daily newspaper with a circulation of ca. 250'000 asks for a specific airplane's picture which it would honor with ca. 800 CHF (500 Euro) when printed. I forward about 5 high-res scans to them within the hour. In the end, they take a picture from one of their own stock photographers who rushed to the airport to shoot one himself, but while informing me about that fact, they offer to pay a lump-sum of CHF 150 (Euro 100) for the extra efforts I had at my hands upon their request.

- A similar picture sold to a nationwide TV station where it was used as still image during the evening news was refunded with CHF 200.- which compensation was simply matching the published tariff of said network.

- Seven high-resolution images used for a brochure @ 8000 examples printed and used for a Paris Aerosalon appearance of a CIS-based commercial aircraft design bureau sold for US $ 1500.-

- A low-resolution image sold to an internet-based commercial aircraft broker sold at US $ 120.-

That's another key word for you guys: In most cases, agencies and media do have an exact tariff on how much they pay for "stock pictures". Which is roughly also equivalent to the tariff an archive like Agence Press etc. or an association of media photographers will charge for an image pulled from their stock files. The rates or tariff is usually taking into account circulation (number of copies printed) and geographical range of the media using the picture, duration of the usage (single run in print for a daily newspaper, or indefinite, continued use in advertising brochures, media campaigns etc.), number of individual media products using the picture (will it only be used in the printed edition of the newspaper, or will it also appear in the internet version of the same paper and in a foreign language spin-off of the same paper), and of course whether the user wants to have exclusive rights on the picture or whether the user just wants to be one of potentially several media running your image.

Actually, the existance of such tariffs would leave no room for bargaining with "regular" stock photos, and reduce the cases of bargaining to "unique" pictures like Paparazzi-shots of a celebrity in troubles, or pictures of an accident scene etc. Unfortunately, some agencies and media use the lack of knowledge on behalf of semi-professional photographers - into which category many a.netters do fall - and try to get something for free or way below the official tariffs.

The above factors are the questions you MUST ask when contacted by a media group about the use of one of your pictures, otherwise they (rightly) assume that you have little to no experience in this field... With regards to an advertising campaing for an airline, you should definitely:

- Ask what the range of the campaing will be (geographically: which media, technically: which forms of publications, time-wise: unique campaign or also in future campaigns)
- Make clear that you know the difference between an exclusive license and a non-exclusive one. As images used in an advertising campaign should in 99.5% of the cases not appear anywhere else and thus the license most probably is ment to be an exclusive one, make sure you get appropriately payed for that (rule of thumb: Go at least for 5 times the fee of a non-exclusive license).

Just my two or three cents of experience here, but hope it helps!

Cheers, Lukas

[Edited 2005-12-13 16:20:44]

[Edited 2005-12-13 16:23:43]


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