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Topic: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BigPhilNYC
Posted 2006-11-04 20:09:01 and read 5336 times.

Hey Shooters,

I was wondering your thoughts on something.

I only just recently learned that First Class members do not view the watermarks that some photographers opt to apply to their photos upon uploading.

This surprises me because I know there are photographers who upload their shots with confidence because they know that their photos are protected by the watermark.

The only place that photographers are told that First Class members won’t see this is under the “Help” button in the watermark area. So, if the photographer doesn’t need help, there is a very good chance that they won’t know about this detail.

http://nycaviation.com/pichost/waterhelp.jpg

Personally, I think that such a feature for First Class members compromises the security of the photos that said photographers are expecting they have. I think it defeats the purpose of watermarking the photos when many who come to this site (F/C members) have free reign to the photos anyway.

However, I’m not here to say that should be change. If that’s what Johan wants to implement and offer to paying First Class members, then that is his option.

What I would like to see, though, is something more clearly stating to the photographers that add watermarks that it won’t be seen by First Class members in clearer text without having to search for it. Whether it appears in the first upload page describing other rules or in a brief sentence in the watermark box on the upload page itself, I think that photographers should know more easily.

Shooters should be clearly informed when their protective measures might be compromised.

I was going to send an email to administration to kindly ask for this, but I wanted to get your opinions first, as if you folks disagree, well then I’d be wasting my time.

Thanks, guys.

-Phil Derner, Jr.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-04 20:25:05 and read 5327 times.

Hmmm never knew that. Then again I never gave much thought to the fact that every pic I every view never has the watermark. Good point Phil, if someone opts to have the watermark it should protect the pic to all viewing it or it basically defeats the purpose. Even worse, if you find a pic that you watermarked stolen and being displayed without the watermark it basically could have only happened from a member of the site no?  confused 

As far as emailing the crew Phil go ahead. it's a valid point.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Lennymuir
Posted 2006-11-04 20:55:22 and read 5305 times.

Thanks for reminding me Phil.

I have been uploading some larger shots lately with a watermark
(with confidence I thought)
I've lost a little of that confidence now.

Well, at least if I find one of the larger versions elsewhere without the watermark, I'll know an a.net 'subscriber' has lifted it.

Gerry

[Edited 2006-11-04 20:56:02]

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Gmonney
Posted 2006-11-04 21:14:34 and read 5290 times.

OH thanks for the tip... I am going to use my first class membership to take photos...?? I strongly think that most people who use the site and have a first class membership do not steal... but again I could be wrong...I came across a photo that still had the "plane picture" copy right bar at the bottom?? Some people? Maybe if Johan wrote something in where if you copy the picture the watermark would appear on the coppied image? I really like viewing the pics with out the watermark, but i agree for safety reasons its a good idea to have it on the picture?

Lets hope our members respect the other members!

Grant

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-04 21:38:51 and read 5275 times.

Quoting Gmonney (Reply 3):
I am going to use my first class membership to take photos...??

Please understand I was merely giving a "for instance" I would never think a FC member here would do that.

At the same time if someone does see a photo being used without permission that was watermarked you would have some questions to answer.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Gmonney
Posted 2006-11-04 21:46:58 and read 5269 times.

Yup its me... i am going to steal photos and sell them for a buck a copy...!!

I understand what you are saying... don't worry i won't steal a picture... i have my own thanks!

Grant

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: NIKV69
Posted 2006-11-04 21:52:25 and read 5262 times.

Quoting Gmonney (Reply 5):
Yup its me... i am going to steal photos and sell them for a buck a copy...!!

A buck?  crazy  Whip out the dinero!  dollarsign 

Quoting Gmonney (Reply 5):
I understand what you are saying...

Me too  checkmark 

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: TomTurner
Posted 2006-11-04 21:57:22 and read 5260 times.

Phil - you're grandfathered in arent you? Do you see watermarks on the images?

I agree with though, it wouldn't hurt to make it clearer to the uploading photographers.

On the other point though, if watermarked images ultimately extend to first class members, as a viewer who'd rather not look at watermarked images I will recall someone else's suggestion back when the watermark idea was established:

And that is, watermarked images get clearly marked on the photo results page so that visitors see what they will click on. I think it would only be fair to also include an option to exclude watermarked photos from the search page for the benefit of the viewer if the viewer loses the option to buy into the benefit.

Tom

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Jorge1812
Posted 2006-11-04 22:10:30 and read 5247 times.

That's something I have thought about very often. Many pics are stolen from Anet for commercial use with and without the Watermark. But if you want to see the pic without watermark and use it e.g. for a companies homepage then paying 5 USD is much cheaper than getting it from the Photog itself for a lot more. I used to have those Watermarks too, but when I realised that many people dislike them and that it's still possible to get them without I stopped adding them to my pics.

Anyway, I don't think that there is a good solution for this problem. It's OK that 1st class members can view pics without.

Quoting Gmonney (Reply 3):
I strongly think that most people who use the site and have a first class membership do not steal

Correct, but there might be people who steal and use the First Class Membership to do so.

Georg

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BigPhilNYC
Posted 2006-11-04 22:19:47 and read 5243 times.

Quoting TomTurner (Reply 7):
Phil - you're grandfathered in arent you? Do you see watermarks on the images?

Yes, I do see the watermarks.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: TomTurner
Posted 2006-11-04 22:36:42 and read 5233 times.

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 9):
Yes, I do see the watermarks.

wow.. I had no idea, (or, I guess the wrong idea) having had a non-consecutive membership myself.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: JeffM
Posted 2006-11-05 00:29:34 and read 5188 times.

You are correct Phil. This is something that should be addressed.

Anyone that is going to willingly take an image from here can do so without any watermark for $5 bucks, and sleep soundly knowing he or she cannot be traced.

I can download a whole lot of images in 30 days.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Tbird
Posted 2006-11-05 20:00:07 and read 5118 times.

This totally defeats the purpose of watermarking IMO. Regardless of your membership status, the watermarks should appear to protect your intellectual rights to the picture.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2006-11-05 21:03:41 and read 5102 times.

Quoting Tbird (Reply 12):
This totally defeats the purpose of watermarking IMO.

There was no purpose from the first day onwards if you ask me.
Most watermarks can be easily removed anyway.

Further thinking.
- Why should 100.000 visitors keep on doing so if the only thing they get is a watermark image ?
- Why should I pay for my F/C any longer if I have to look at watermarked images.
If we are not careful there will be nothing left to worry about.

I can think of only 3 ways to keep your images safe.
1. Don't shoot.
2. Shoot but erase your C/F on the way home.
3. Shoot and don't upload to anywhere.
All other way's don't work and/or might have severe(unwanted) side effects like loosing our audience who made A.net to what it is today.

I never made it a secret that I don't believe in the big "stealing" anyway.
Yes it does happen but as far as I can see on a very limited scale and no way near to get worried about.
How many of your own shots are stolen and used for something commercial ?
I have none that I am aware of and I can only remember a very few from the last 3 year here at this forum who had encountered this problem.
Most yelling was about somebody oblivious using an image on his website without asking, wow...... big deal.
Be honest........ 98% of the images(including my own) are not worth stealing in the first place but can be made by anybody anytime anywhere.

Guys........ this whole BS is not worth the trouble and for those who still believe it is I can think of only one thing: Take your whole lot to a proper stock agency instead of uploading on a public website.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: JeffM
Posted 2006-11-05 21:34:41 and read 5093 times.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):
Guys........ this whole BS is not worth the trouble and for those who still believe it is I can think of only one thing: Take your whole lot to a proper stock agency instead of uploading on a public website.

Give me a break.....everyone has an opinion. Your's is no more right, then anyone elses.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2006-11-05 21:49:00 and read 5079 times.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 14):
Give me a break.....

You'll take your break anyway Big grin

Quoting JeffM (Reply 14):
everyone has an opinion.

Of course...... and I just gave mine.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 14):
Your's is no more right, then anyone elses

Where did I say I was more right then someone else ?

Instead of this reply you could also have given a few answers to my thinking Jeff and start a proper discussion.
Personally I don't see the point in your reply but of course that is only my viewpoint and nothing more then that.
Also by no means I have the intention to say "I am wrong and you are right"...... or was it the other way around Big grin

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BigPhilNYC
Posted 2006-11-05 22:54:44 and read 5052 times.

I don't think the validity of a watermark has anything to do with this issue.

The issue is that people who upload thinking that their images are better protected because of the watermark are being slightly misled.

If you want to question whether watermarks help against theft that doesn't happen, then I think that's a whole other discussion. Perosnally, I'd rather it not be discused here so as to not take away from the topic at hand.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Jorge1812
Posted 2006-11-05 22:58:17 and read 5051 times.

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 16):
The issue is that people who upload thinking that their images are better protected because of the watermark are being slightly misled.

Yes, it might be misunderstood - but to make sure you always have to read the small printed (help). What esle should Anet do protect people who refuse to read the help files?

Georg

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: JeffM
Posted 2006-11-05 23:06:24 and read 5048 times.

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 16):
The issue is that people who upload thinking that their images are better protected because of the watermark are being slightly misled.

Agreed. But more then slightly.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BigPhilNYC
Posted 2006-11-05 23:12:45 and read 5043 times.

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 17):

Yes, it might be misunderstood - but to make sure you always have to read the small printed (help). What esle should Anet do protect people who refuse to read the help files?

Disclaimers and notes don't belong in the "helo" section. It would go in a "Privacy" section or somethign else. Help is meant for peopel who need help, not as a requirement for people who don't.

Ask a lawyer, they'd agree.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Lennymuir
Posted 2006-11-06 00:49:19 and read 5023 times.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):

Willem, I hear what you say.

I understand your perspective as currently you can view the 'watermarked' images without a watermark with a First Class subscription.

Your assumption and anecdotal conclusion that there is nothing to worry
about since you've only read about photo theft on this forum a few times
in the last few years.

Perhaps you're unaware of theft that happens very often, not made
public in here. I have assisted with a number of cases not made public.
I'm not talking about yahoo photo album or plane-spotter websites but some real serious shit.
Also, it's not necessarily commercial gain that is the cause of the theft.
It's thieveing from here and other similar websites for political causes.
These stolen photographs have been syndicated around the world from news agency to news agency where the photographer had absolutely no idea their 'unwatermarked' image was star billing and a headliner.

And don't think for one second that the examples I'm referring to are one-off
situations. It's normal practice to steal, knowing fine well that the chances of being caught and pinned down are very very slim.

It could have also affected you Willem.

Be honest........ 98% of the images(including my own) are not worth stealing in the first place

You seem to feel your work has little value.
That's a pity.

Your most mundane and nondescript image could've been one of the
images flashing around the news media earlier this year.

Only once you have been bitten, you will understand.

Of course ignorance is bliss, but don't ever say you haven't been warned.

Gerry

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2006-11-06 02:07:23 and read 4999 times.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
Your assumption and anecdotal conclusion that there is nothing to worry
about since you've only read about photo theft on this forum a few times
in the last few years.

I am sure you know a lot more about these issue's then I do Gerry but still I feel that for the majority outhere there is little to worry about.
From some posts and not only in this thread but also from the past I get the feeling that suddenly everybody is afraid to have their photos stolen.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
Perhaps you're unaware of theft that happens very often, not made
public in here. I have assisted with a number of cases not made public.

I know about one case at AMS with the burning engine which was stolen by a newspaper.
Which of course is a bad thing but then again they probably would have stolen it anyway with or without watermark.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
knowing fine well that the chances of being caught and pinned down are very very slim.

So why worry about it  Smile

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
It could have also affected you Willem.

I am aware of that and from time to time I do receive emails concerning the use of my photos but over time I have learned that I have little time and resources to do anything about it.
Also in far most cases I am contacted properly and I am just not sure whether it is right to let the good ones suffer because of a few naughty ones.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
You seem to feel your work has little value.

No it had nothing to do with that but more that I have 2 feet on the ground, I am not v. Gogh or anything but just a blook who enjoys aviation in general and photography.
Although I try to be as original as I can I also realise that everything I do is already done a zillion times before me and will be done another zillion times after me.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
Only once you have been bitten, you will understand.

Oh... I have been bitten Gerry don't worry about it and I do understand the matter but I just won't bow down and spoil my highly valued  Smile work with a watermark.
If I was so afraid as others seem to be I would just not upload anything here on a public website.
From my viewpoint the choice is either to upload here without a watermark or to take my stuff somewhere else.
After all this website became what it is due to a massive amount of visitors each day who just want to have a nice wall paper, preferably without watermark I suppose.

Quoting Lennymuir (Reply 20):
but don't ever say you haven't been warned.

and I thank you for that Gerry, other people tried as well but that didn't help either haha Big grin
If it really gets out of control I will simply quite uploading but until then I am not gonna worry about it.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: AdamWright
Posted 2006-11-06 02:08:23 and read 4999 times.

I don't understand the people who watermark their photos so that hte watermark falls over bluesky or any part of the photo that doesn't cover the aircraft itself...

I always make a point to place the watermark over the most technical part of the photograph where it would be hardest to eliminate it with photoshop.

And yes I knew that FC members could see photos w/out the watermark. While I never made much hooplaa about it, I do agree with you Phil. This site has become a place of business. Thousands of dollars worth of material is purchased through this website weekly. To have a loophole this big, (that I think was obviously set in place to get Airliners.net an extra 5 bucks while shafting the photogs from getting their due) is a disgrace. Please, lets find a suitable solution to this issue.

Thanks,
Adam

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BrianW999
Posted 2006-11-06 09:58:11 and read 4960 times.

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 22):
Please, lets find a suitable solution to this issue.

Yes, lets do that.

Easiest way ?

Scrap the watermark for a start. Its been proven that anyone who wants to lift a picture can do unlimited downloads for a month for $5 so they seem to be a waste of time anyway. Personally speaking, they spoil my viewing pleasure to the point that I try to avoid wasting my time opening watermarked pictures.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):
Guys........ this whole BS is not worth the trouble and for those who still believe it is I can think of only one thing: Take your whole lot to a proper stock agency instead of uploading on a public website.

That single quote, to me, answers all the comments we hear from so called "professional" photographers on this site.

What is a "professional" ?......

Someone who earns their total living from a particular activity, in this case aviation photography. A professional aviation photographer offering a service researches their customer base, contacts those customers either directly, via trade magazines or as Aviopic suggests, by submitting to a stock agency. They specifically do not upload to a public access website from which an image can be easily lifted with little chance of legal redress.

I would venture to suggest that 99.9% of the photographers uploading here do not fit into the above description and can therefore be described as amateur photographers ( albeit some of them very good ) who post images here for the viewing pleasure of other likeminded enthusiasts.

Pictures on a site such as this are going to get lifted, are going to continue to get lifted and, unless you pay some high powered lawyers a vast sum of money, there is SOD ALL you can about it.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Q330
Posted 2006-11-06 14:08:11 and read 4928 times.

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 23):
I would venture to suggest that 99.9% of the photographers uploading here do not fit into the above description and can therefore be described as amateur photographers ( albeit some of them very good ) who post images here for the viewing pleasure of other likeminded enthusiasts.

Just because we're not 'professionals' doesn't mean we don't deserve to be compensated for photo usage. This alone isn't a good reason to scrap the watermark.

-Q

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Linco22
Posted 2006-11-06 14:17:51 and read 4926 times.

What about the option to add our own watermark? As long as a criteria was laid out as to its size etc etc

Just a thought

Regards
Colin  Smile

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: 53Sqdn
Posted 2006-11-06 14:39:35 and read 4932 times.

Hi all. BigPhil and I were discussing this in another thread on A.Net. My input (for what's it's worth) is only personal. I pay to be a F/C member on this site for two main reasons. Here are the reasons...

A First Class username in the discussion forum, the most active aviation discussion forum in the world - this is the place to hang out if you're into aviation! You will have unlimited post and read access to all forums including the poll and article sections as well as the live chat channel as well as additional perks including instant messaging to other FC members, extended Respected Users list and more!


View photos in full splendor without watermarks! Some photos on Airliners.net are protected with visible watermarks. As a First Class Member you get to view the originals, without the watermark (same copyright restrictions apply - you may view the photos, use as wallpaper etc but other use require the permission of the photographer).

The above is taken from the front page under Home, Not a member?Join us.

The first option above allows me to enter into threads like this to give other members my feelings on a particular subject. The second option is the main reason why I pay. I want to see 'your' photos without A.Net plastered wherever. Whilst on the wording of the watermark. If I was a 'snapper' uploading to this site, I would rather the W/M be 'my' name than AIRLINERS NET. But, that aside, YOU, the photographers (the reason this site exists) must post your pictures here for a reason? There must be 'other' sites where your contributions would be gladly accepted? So why post here? Because (I think) you love posting on this site. It's said to be the best 'out there'

I will agree though, that there may be people who pay their 'dues' just to get pictures for there own gain. But surely, at the end of the day, this applies to many things in life. Speaking from a UK perspective, this would involve things like football, peaceful rallies etc. Where the few, mess it up for the many?

Just to say, on a personal note, if I was slightly younger (with steady hands) and the gear you use these days, I'd be out there too. YOU are appreciated and without YOU this site wouldn,t exist.

Give us, that pay their dues some respect as, I respect you as photographers.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Aviopic
Posted 2006-11-06 15:09:36 and read 4928 times.

Quoting Q330 (Reply 24):
Just because we're not 'professionals' doesn't mean we don't deserve to be compensated for photo usage.

Of course and I will be the last one to deny that but from my own experience(dozens of publications in magazine's, news papers and books) I can only say that in 99% of the cases things are handled properly.
Magazine's like Aircraft's Illustrated are not going to steal your or my photos.

Quoting 53Sqdn (Reply 26):
Give us, that pay their dues some respect as, I respect you as photographers.

 checkmark 

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: AC888YOW
Posted 2006-11-06 21:37:57 and read 4888 times.

I use the watermark, and I know (and disagree, different topic) FC members view the photos without them.

I agree that there should be a more explicit mention to the photographer that FC members view the photos without the watermarks. Instead of being buried in the "Help" dialogue, this mention should be on the upload page, directly adjacent to the watermark feature box.

Much like the "Identification Numbers" and "Remark" boxes have notes attached under them (such as "Leave EMPTY those that do not apply", "Do not type any ID number in this field!", etc.), the Watermark box should have a similar note under it. Just pull the note, as is, from the "Help" dialogue and place it under the watermark box.

A trivial, yet important change to make.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Q330
Posted 2006-11-06 23:32:41 and read 4871 times.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 27):
Of course and I will be the last one to deny that but from my own experience(dozens of publications in magazine's, news papers and books) I can only say that in 99% of the cases things are handled properly.
Magazine's like Aircraft's Illustrated are not going to steal your or my photos.

I agree with you. My reply was mostly directed at BrianW999.

-Q

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: Eksath
Posted 2006-11-07 04:13:18 and read 4841 times.

The watermark feature is actually quite well circumvented BY Airliners.net at the expense of the photographer. As it has been quite well pointed out here and elsewhere, these pics are not in any way shape or form being protected from abuse. The protection provided by Airliners.net is a mere illusion.


Airliners.net tacitly encourages the abuse to further its interests.

Topic: RE: Your Thoughts On Watermarks And F/C Membership
Username: BrianW999
Posted 2006-11-07 17:25:23 and read 4806 times.

Quoting Q330 (Reply 24):
Just because we're not 'professionals' doesn't mean we don't deserve to be compensated for photo usage. This alone isn't a good reason to scrap the watermark.

I quite agree with you. I was merely trying to point out that the watermark is a wasted exercise given that, for $5 a month, a ripoff artist can take what they want.

Quoting Eksath (Reply 30):
Airliners.net tacitly encourages the abuse to further its interests.

Bloody hell !!! If that comment doesn't start a war, nothing will.


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