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Canon 10D Or D60?  
User currently offlineAndrewuber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

I've been using an Olympus C-4040Z with some luck, but I think I'm ready to take the leap into digital SLR photography. I like Canon, and want 6 megapixels or more, so I'm considering the 10D, the D60, and the Canon Digital Rebel (maybe even the Nikon D100). Can anyone tell me the differences in the 10D and D60? The 10D seems to be a bit more money - is it worth it? Or, would it be "over my head" as an amateur? Also, which lens(es) should I start out with?

Perhaps most convincing to me were Sven De Bevere's photos - I've never seen such clarity and sharpness.

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Also - are digital SLR cameras (such as the 10D, D60 and Digital Rebel) good for timed exposure shots? My Olympus gets a lot of video noise on an exposure of 2 or 4 seconds... just wondered if this is typical of digital cameras or just CHEAP digital cameras!!!

[Edited 2003-11-13 11:15:18]


I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineManzoori From UK - England, joined Sep 2002, 1516 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Andrew,

The canon EOS 10D is an update on the D60. It's worth checking out the reviews on DPREVIEW.COM but from what I've gathered so far, if you can afford it, go for the 10D.

Colin Work has got both, so he may be able to give you a real life viewpoint of which to go for.

Good Luck!

Rez
 Big thumbs up



Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
User currently offlineCkw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 745 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

The 10D addresses some issues of the D60 - primarily the AF system has been significantly improved. Flash is a little better, exposure system has been tweaked (but not necessarily improved) 1 frame larger buffer and the ability to fit perhaps 10% more shots on a CF card. LCD display is better.

In terms of image quality - identical at 100 ISO. As you move to higher ISOs, the noise is slightly less on the 10D.

But I find I use both cameras about equally, and don't find myself reluctant to use the D60. The difference will be price. Knowing what I know, if had to replace the cameras, I think I'd be willing to pay a 20% premium for the 10D over the D60. So I'd consider a new D60 at 75% or less of the price of a 10D a bargain.

The 300D definitely be considered - great price, basically the same image quality as the 10D and D60, but slightly crippled in terms of offering full creative control.

All 3 can produce excellent very long exposures with little or no noise.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlineDazultra From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 689 posts, RR: 41
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Go for the 10D if you can afford it, its by far the best of the 3.
The 300D is basically a 10D in a plastic case (as opposed to magnesium alloy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ) and with a few less manual controls.
The D60 you will only be able to get second hand now since the 10D has effectively replaced it.

In terms of lenses, if you can afford them go for L series lenses since they will offer the best quality throughout the zoom and aperture range. Im only a student so I cant afford premium lenses like that, but I do have the 75-300 f4-5.6 USM IS which I find is very good for what it is, but the sharpness tends to drop off at the higher end of the zoom scale.

Also when you buy, don't forget your accessories
- you will definitely need a spare battery, my 10D takes about 300 shots and the battery dies after that.
- since the camera is 6.3mp (all of them) the images recorded are very high in size, and in raw format they can be 6-8mb so consider a large size compact flash card (512mb +). Don't bother with Microdrives they are too slow since they are essentially miniature hard drives and take time to spin up and access sectors etc. Also because its a physical moving device it will eat more battery than a solid state compact flash card for example.


Hope this helps

Dazultra.


User currently offlineTZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2539 times:
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Contrary to what Dazultra has said, the 10D and D60 are almost identical. Like Colin said, the 10D addresses a few of the small niggles of the D60. One downside with the 10D is that it comes with a single-battery recharger - the D60 has a dual battery charger. The latter is very useful, since you can leave two batteries charging and go away and leave it (or go to sleep), and their both done when you get back.

Again, contrary to Dazultra, I have found my Microdrives to be faster than standard SanDisk cards, and very nearly as fast as Ultra SanDisk cards. The only noticable slow-down comes when the 1GB card is almost full, then it takes a little longer.

I have never experienced any noise on my night shots (right up to 300 secs and more). However, I do now have a couple of "hot pixels" which have to be cloned out from night shots. Two bad pixels out of 6,300,000 isn't really a big deal, after all!

You'll be happy with any of the above cameras. Don't forget the camera may well be less than 50% of your investment - you'll probably also need some memory cards, lenses, storage for the images, etc, etc.

Tamsin



TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
User currently offlineAndrewuber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2531 times:

Thanks for your input everybody. I'm actually a die-hard E-Bayer, and will probably buy my new camera from there (I bought my Olympus from there, and will be selling it there!). Unless I find an absolute steal on a 10D, I might give the 300D a shot. Looking through the d/b, I came across quite a few very impressive shots taken by folks who seem to be in love with their digital rebels, such as this one:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Samples


Also, being such a novice, I think the majority of the features of the 10D would go unnoticed by me for quite some time. Dazultra - good point on the battery charger - I may try to find one of those dual chargers, or a battery grip for the camera. Either way, you're absolutely right - it's a REAL bummer to lose your battery just as that AN-124 is on short final!!!

Any other comments / advice / input is greatly appreciated! If you have a Digital Rebel, 10D or D60, feel free to sound off here if you get a chance!



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineTS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2517 times:

Again, contrary to Dazultra, I have found my Microdrives to be faster than standard SanDisk cards, and very nearly as fast as Ultra SanDisk cards. The only noticable slow-down comes when the 1GB card is almost full, then it takes a little longer.

Interesting topic. Tamsin, did you notice any difference in energy consumption of CF cards v. MicroDrives?

Thomas


User currently offlineCkw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 745 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2515 times:

While I agree the dual charger for the D60 is nice, if you go 10D or 300D you can always buy a 3rd party charger and batteries if you need them. I think the build issue can be overstated - the camera is tough enough, and the critical lens mount is metal. I guess it depends how much you want to abuse it, but it shouldn't fall apart in your hand!

When looking at examples, remember its the lens that really matters - any of the Canon DSLRs are capable of revealing the limitations of cheap lenses. Unless you know you have a need for the 10Ds extra features - one of which might be mirror lockup for long exposures - the 300D may suit you best.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlineTZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2488 times:
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Thomas: In my experience, any additional drain on battery power from the Microdrive is negligible. I certainly have never been able to detect any difference at all.

The major factors (again, in my experience) in battery useage are, in priority:
1. Cold weather (I'd guess that at 0degC, battery life is half that at 21degC),
2. Use of IS lens (in IS mode, of course!),
3. Excessive use of the LCD while bored waiting for the next aircraft to arrive.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tamsin



TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
User currently offline2912n From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 2013 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2484 times:

Invest in the battery grip and 2d battery. Gives you plenty of battery power for long days and makes the camera feel much better in your hand. It does add extra weight, but is well worth it.

User currently offlineTZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2464 times:
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2912n: Good point. I thoroughly endorse that.


TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
User currently offlineDazultra From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 689 posts, RR: 41
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Regarding the microdrive / compact flash issue - microdrives will only read / write at about 1.5-3.5mb a second. 40x compact flash cards can go up to 6mb a second, theres loads kicking about on ebay for decent enough prices.
The sandisk ultra cards are nothing special the unbranded ones can outperform the sandisks easily for half the price.
Also because the microdrive is a moving device it is more likely to wear out and break compared to a compact flash that has no moving parts. Trust me, I know about IBM hard drives and how UNreliable they can be  Big grin
At the end of the day its a hard drive, so if you drop it or knock it by mistake, that's the end of it...
Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your choice  Smile but its solid state for me everytime...


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2436 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

One the subject of memory, you might want to give crucial.com a try. They are a sub of Micron, and they offer a lifetime warranty + 2-day Fed Ex shipping.

A 512 CF card goes for $115 US.

The 1 gig is $271 US.


User currently offlineBronko From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 810 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Amazon has 1GB Vikings for $149.00 after rebate, and 512's for $75.00 after rebate. Of course you have to play the rebate game.

I purchased a RiData 512 for around $120.00 from mydigitaldiscount. It is supposed to be one of the fastest, and there was no rebate involved. It shipped within hours of ordering too.



Jet City Aviation Photography
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2415 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

I have heard odd things about rebates on Viking CF cards purchased on Amazon. If you fire up the the digital storage forum over at dpreview.com you can find out what I am talking about, as well as lots of other hot deals on digi media.

User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5059 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Maybe neither. I think that there will be a new camera introduced at the show in February 04 - one that would replace the 10D.

If so then 10D prices will drop. PLus there'll be a new camera on the market.


bruce



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

Wow, the 300 has only been out a little over a month....and now another "new" Canon is ready to roll? Why buy one at first release? Just wait 6 months for the next generation to appear and then buy it.

v/r


User currently offline2912n From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 2013 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Bruce do you have some solid rumor? Or are you speculating?

The 300D has been a hot seller for Canon, and with the holiday season upon us they will probably sell even faster, so I would suspect that Canon is putting it's efforts on meeting that demand at the moment.

But the digital camera field is now where computers were just a couple of years ago, wait 6 months and something with double the ability is out at a lower price! But I think with the current crop we will see a slowdown in replacement products. Canon found the niche with the 300D, others will probably follow with their own lower priced DSLR. Even as hot as the D30-60-10 (who made up the number flow????) and the D100 have been the 300D has grabbed the market for people who want a "reasonably" priced camera with the SLR features. I would guess that Nikon etc...will now be setting their sights on matching the 300D in price and features. (Of course I could be wrong...just ask the wife!  Smile )


User currently offlineBronko From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 810 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

If this rumoured camera is replacing the 10D then it is not a competitor to the 300D.


Jet City Aviation Photography
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Of course not "Bronko"....the money goes to the same company!

 Laugh out loud v/r
Jeff


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9644 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2380 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

any ways, who cares? Buy the best thing you can afford when you have the money. If you don't, you will always be sitting on the sidelines. You'll be one of those "spec geeks" who can rattle off info about this and that but don't know shit about photography.

Look at some of the D30 shooters on this website, they kill it day in and day out, using a now 2 generation old Canon body.

And as others have stated, the glass you buy is where it's at. Go buy a body, buy some nice lenses and get it on.


User currently offlineBronko From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 810 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

I purchased the 300D, so I would have more money to put towards the glass. I don't regret it at all.




Jet City Aviation Photography
User currently offlineAndrewuber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2350 times:

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm going to evaluate my money situation, and if I can find a great deal on a 10D, I'll snag it. Otherwise, I've seen some great 300D packages (including a lens and enough equipment to get shooting) for $1,000 or even less. I may go that route, and get some good glass, as you've all suggested. I'm tired of seeing BADSCAN and BADSOFT!

DREW




I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineManzoori From UK - England, joined Sep 2002, 1516 posts, RR: 33
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Hey Drew!

I'm tired of seeing BADSCAN and BADSOFT!

Sorry to be a party pooper mate but even with a 10D, D60 or 300D, if your technique isn't up to scratch then those rejections are still all too possible!

All the best for your imminent purchase mate, and I hope you're happy with whatever kit you get!

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up



Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5059 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

2912n, no i have no hard facts. But it is just a known fact that canon considers the "shelf life" of a new model to be 18 months.

Clickhappy said it well though...."go buy a body and get some nice lenses and get it on...."

I guess what it comes down to is that any of these cameras are good for producing material of sufficient quality for this database. I agree with Manzoori, having digital is not a guarantee of success, but i will say from first hand experience that it is a tremendous improvement in your success rate. PLus, digital allows you more flexibility to practice the technique of shooting without wasting precious film costs.


bruce



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineCkw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 745 posts, RR: 16
Reply 25, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

But it is just a known fact that canon considers the "shelf life" of a new model to be 18 months.

Not sure how you figure this ...

D30 ... (sept. 2000)
D60 ... (Feb 2002 - 18 months later)
10D ... (Feb 2003 - 12 months later)
300D ... (Sept 2003 - 6 months later)

On this track record a new camera is due tomorrow  Smile

On the other hand, film cameras run for years.

Bottom line, is no one knows what Canon will do much in advance - they are very secretive about product releases, perhaps why they keep catching the competition flast footed.

None the less, there are many "informed" rumours that a "3D" will be announced at PMA in Feb. - something positioned between the 10D and 1Ds. One very real indicator of this is plummetting 1D prices - I see it going for around £2200 in the UK now, suggeting dealers are being encouraged to shift stock before it becomes unsellable.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
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