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Escorted Out Of JFK Because Of Photographing  
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Armed with a camera, I am a terrorist.

Or so I have been told.

I just got back from JFK at what was going to be a long day of taking pictures at T4. Here is the scenario: I arrived at about 11:30 AM this morning from a flight on Independence. I stayed in the departure hall and was going about quietly taking pictures of the planes and then a security agent came up and told me that photography was not allowed. Period.

I tried to explain to her that an FAA law says it is perfectly fine, but no because that is what her supervisor told her. She suggested that I check with the TSA to see what they said, so I did. A number of TSA supervisors told me that photographing planes, terminals, etc. was perfectly fine and legal as long as it was not of the security checkpoint.

I went back to her and decided to call her supervisor. Twenty minutes later, the supervisor turned up and said that photography was not allowed due to security reasons because someone could find out "where aircraft are parked," he did not know if I was a good person or "bad guy," and other non-sense reasons. I explained to him the FAA law, but he ignored it and kept saying that photography was not allowed.

I tried to explain to him the photographs were for my personal collection and so forth but he still held firm. He then took down my name, address, telephone number, the school I attend, passport number, where I had been staying, etc. He told me he might have to call the police to confiscate my camera, but after reviewing my pictures he decided that was not going to be necessary.

I kept my cool and was nice to both him and the original security agent and they were nice with me, but it was obvious that the man was not one to mess around with. Near the end, I told him that I had been able to photographs at every other terminal at JFK and countless others around the world. He responded that an independent company operates T4 and they hired his security company and they make the rules, "not the FAA." He also changed his story about how you sometimes can pictures and sometimes cannot, but I never got the full story.

I have read other people's horror stories and how upset they are, but I never knew how it could be so true and powerful. I no longer feel safe in my own country, I feel like I am no longer a citizen, and, quite honestly, I feel like shit.

So what I want to know is if photography is allowed at JFK or not and if there are contact numbers or FAA laws that I can bring with me to back that up.

I knew our hobby was in jeopardy--but never this bad.

-Will


"She Flew For What We Stand For"
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDelta717 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 457 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

Photography at any airport is perfectly legal. The thing that really bothers me is that even after you got the "OK" from the TSA, you still weren't able to take pictures. I think you handled the situation at hand perfectly, though.

User currently offlineNeilalp From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Take your camera!! HAHA they were on a power trip it seems.
If they ever did take my camera I wonder if you could take it as a tax write off.

Brush it off I say and don't worry about it do it again and if it unlikely happens again I'd suggest you email the Airport Authority Director or Operation Manager as they deal with the security personal.


User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6737 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4093 times:

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
because someone could find out "where aircraft are parked,"

Must be the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

I wonder what would happen if you turned up with an easel, paper and watercolour paints and started painting an airport scene.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineUnited4everDEN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
FAA law says it is perfectly fine

Hmmm, FAA law? I did not know the FAA mandated what activities were allowed within airport terminals. I thought it was state/local laws that covered that. Please cite this.

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
He responded that an independent company operates T4 and they hired his security company and they make the rules

Uh, well there is your answer as to why you cannot take pictures. It has ntohing to do with TSA or the US, so the following statement is utter BS;

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
I no longer feel safe in my own country, I feel like I am no longer a citizen, and, quite honestly, I feel like shit.

Why, cause you couldn't take pictures ONLY in T4? Please....

EDIT, one last question:

"He then took down my name, address, telephone number, the school I attend, passport number, where I had been staying, etc."

Why did he ask for your passport number? Why did you have a passport on an Indy air flight? Why give it to him, it is not like he is the police.

[Edited 2005-03-23 23:44:33]

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4053 times:

You let that idiot touch your camera? He was full of BS. Taking pictures is not a crime. I would have told him to call the police and try to touch my camera. What a bunch of assholes. We have to stand up to this treatment!  weightlifter 

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6438 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
He responded that an independent company operates T4 and they hired his security company and they make the rules, "not the FAA."

Doesn't the P.A. of NY and NJ operate T4?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
I tried to explain to her that an FAA law says it is perfectly fine,

As has been said, FAA has no law regarding photography inside the terminal. FAA laws start once you get on the ramp.

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
Twenty minutes later, the supervisor turned up and said that photography was not allowed due to security reasons because someone could find out "where aircraft are parked,"

What, someone could find out where the airplane's parked? What next? Will they actually start letting people BOARD THEIR FLIGHT???

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
I tried to explain to him the photographs were for my personal collection and so forth but he still held firm. He then took down my name, address, telephone number, the school I attend, passport number, where I had been staying, etc.

Do not, under any circumstances, go beyond your name. Until they go so far as to detain you (they are TSA, they aren't legally allowed to detain you), should you present that information. If it were the police, all they would do is ask you for your ID, because again, until a warrant is issued or a citation given, that's all they really can do legally.

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
He told me he might have to call the police to confiscate my camera, but after reviewing my pictures he decided that was not going to be necessary.

Under no circumstances would that be legal. Any detention of property without intent to use it as evidence in committing a crime is considered theft.

Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
He responded that an independent company operates T4 and they hired his security company and they make the rules, "not the FAA." He also changed his story about how you sometimes can pictures and sometimes cannot, but I never got the full story.

And that's where the "haha that's funny bullshit" ends and the "are you out of your fucking gord?" begins. No airport, ANYWHERE in america, has a contracted security force inside the terminal. In fact, the whole reason the TSA was put in place was to replace the old rent-a-cops doing the in-terminal security. If that guy told you he was a private security guard, you should have just laughed at him and walked away, because at that point he has absolutely ZERO authority.


User currently offlineAIRBUSRIDER From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

Meanwhile, while they were harrassing you, a real terrorist could have been working on something because those airheads were watching you instead of doing the real job they are supposed to do.................These guys have to act big on the job because at home, their wives probably call the shots!


No Officer, I am not a Terrorist !
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3983 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 6):
Doesn't the P.A. of NY and NJ operate T4?

Last time I checked, the PANYNJ operated all of JFK, EWR, and LGA. You really shouldn't have given your info, you have to stand up for yourself sometimes. This person went way beyond his power, and you shouldn't have let him go any further.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 9):
Last time I checked, the PANYNJ operated all of JFK, EWR, and LGA

The PA does not operate T4, it's operated by a private company.

Michael


User currently offlineDigital-cavu From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 142 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 3):
I wonder what would happen if you turned up with an easel, paper and watercolour paints and started painting an airport scene.

Oh my God that's hilarious...and sadly they'd probably use the same reason to remove you!

Del



United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
User currently offlineDigital-cavu From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 142 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 7):
Quoting SafetyDude (Thread starter):
He told me he might have to call the police to confiscate my camera, but after reviewing my pictures he decided that was not going to be necessary.

Under no circumstances would that be legal. Any detention of property without intent to use it as evidence in committing a crime is considered theft.

You better check with JaxFlyer on this one....MassPort/MA State Police took his stuff and held it for a long time...and only through some inside contacts developed later, was I able to ask about it and resolve the issue. Police/MassPort weren't telling him a thing about his stuff when he would ask...typical red tape BS...

Del



United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Thanks for your replies. To clear a few things up:
-The security agents that I talked to were not the ones who handled the metal detectors and x-ray machines, but rather some company T4 hired for additional security.

-I should have never given the guy all of my contact information. He had a very no-shit look about him and intimidated me. (I had my passport for my ID--I am too young to get a license in New York.)

-I recall someone here quoting the FAA law in question that permits photography.

-The reason I was upset was not because I could not take pictures, but rather the way I was treated (I spent more than hour talking to those people) and their ludicrous reasons.


Now, moving forward, is it okay to take pictures at T4 or not? How should I go about trying to take pictures next time (get something in writing from the FAA, PANYNJ, JFK ops etc.)?

Thanks.
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 10):
The PA does not operate T4, it's operated by a private company.

Didn't know that, guess you learn something new every day.  Smile

Take a look at what I found, regarding T4:

Terminal 4 at New York's John E Kennedy International Airport, one of the only privately run active airport terminals in the country. Opened in May 2001, Terminal 4 features state-of-the-art technology, a modern, window-filled location and, most importantly, gobs of space to film. Run by a private consortium comprising Lehman Bros., real estate developer Elcor Inc. and Dutch-based airport operator Schiphol USA, Terminal 4 is able to accommodate the most challenging requests, all the while keeping 50 airlines flowing with passengers. "People with cameras love it in here," says Janice Holden, director of market and business development for JFK International Air Terminal Llc

http://static.highbeam.com/h/hollywo...dlyatjfksterminal4onlocationjohnf/

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineLindy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3849 times:

In February I was flying on Indy Air to/from JFK. I arrived two hours before my departure. I've been walking from gate to gate taking pictures. Nobody ever asked me what I was doing.
Here is one of the pictures I took that evening.
http://home.comcast.net/~maxkeshani/pianight.jpg

Stories like yours just get me upset. It shows that guys with little pricks are running security at major airports.

Rafal


User currently offlineDigital-cavu From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 142 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

Hey guys...I've written a quick and respectful note to the executive VP for the company that runs T4, asking that he read this discussion. This event is such blatant garbage that I'm hopeful I/we will hear from him.

Regards,

Del



United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
User currently offlineHannes From Finland, joined Jul 2001, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

"The land or freedom". Oh, what did you say, I've must heard something wrong...

User currently offlineUnited4everDEN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Quoting Hannes (Reply 17):
"The land or freedom".

I guess you mean "The land of freedom". Let me clear one thing up. Not that I agree with how this situation was handled by airport authorities, but 'land of freedom' does not mean you are free to do whatever you please whenever you please. Airports are private property, and the owners or anyone they give the authority to, can dictate what is allowed on the premesis. It is explained in the photographer rights, here: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

What happened was pretty much legal, the part about not being allowed to take pictures. As far as I know, the part about taking down all that info and such was legal too, but I don't believe he HAD to give it to them. Call it more of an incovienience.

[Edited 2005-03-24 14:59:01]

User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

LOL., now I know why spotting in hte U.S. is such a hassle.... I better watch it when I go JFKing in May. Everyone, especially the secuirty personnel seem to be scared of their own shadow! Safetydude: we all know you had a camera with a minigun in the lens and the flash was really something to make people blind so that you can get to the planes....... oh my. I also remeber the story about people being taken away in a police car from JFK, now that was even more screwed up!

Sorry about the experience!



Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineHannes From Finland, joined Jul 2001, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Quoting United4everDEN (Reply 18):



Quoting United4everDEN (Reply 18):
Quoting Hannes (Reply 17):
"The land or freedom".

I guess you mean "The land of freedom". Let me clear one thing up. Not that I agree with how this situation was handled by airport authorities, but 'land of freedom' does not mean you are free to do whatever you please whenever you please. Airports are private property, and the owners or anyone they give the authority to, can dictate what is allowed on the premesis. It is explained in the photographer rights, here: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographe...t.pdf

Whoops, yes "of" is what I mean...

I'm just pissed of by a certain administration yelling: "Freedom for "

I'm just tired of everyone saying that this or that can't be done anymore becouse of 9/11. That is just what the terrorists aimed for, creating internal hysteria in a country.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6438 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting United4everDEN (Reply 18):
Airports are private property, and the owners or anyone they give the authority to, can dictate what is allowed on the premesis.

And according to the link in reply #14, cameras and photography ARE allowed.



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3493 times:
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Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 21):
And according to the link in reply #14, cameras and photography ARE allowed.

If you actually read that article, and I venture that most here did not. It refers to how the management of T4 actually market their facility to Film and Television production companies. There was nothing at all about aviation enthusiasts running around with cameras!
Having said that I am not condoning the treatment that our young friend received, indeed if anything I would have thought the T4 people would be a little more open minded about this issue than most.
But it is private property and they can manage how they like, although they should be polite(and consistent) about it!

Regards
Chris



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinePaulinbna From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 1114 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Write a letter and make phone calls. To who ever you can think of. The company that runs T-4, and the company that runs the security firm. You will be amazed what some really well written letters and phone calls will do. Make sure you put all the info and that what we do is not illegal. It is easy to come in here and rant but if you really felt violated. (I am sure you did). But the only way to resolve these things is to let some one on top know what is happening.

See MEM thread for what happened to me in MEM and what the airport actually wrote me back.



Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
User currently offlineNightFlier From United States of America, joined May 2004, 284 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

If it makes you feel any better I was spotted taking photos camera  out side of the airport I work at and someone saw me. They took down my plate number and went to the police whistleblower  with it, who later visited me at my house to find out what I was doing taking photos at the airport. The only good thing that came out of this ? At least we know some people care about airport security. I have just come accept that time from time we have to take a beating to get the great photos we do. We are the paparazzi of the Aviation Industry smile 


Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
25 MidnightMike : I will call my FAA contacts in New York to see wha the deal is and how things like this can be avoided...
26 MidnightMike : SafetyDude I spoke to the FAA in Long Beach & I left a message with the FAA in New York. According to the FAA, there is no rule/law/regulation with ta
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