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Where's The Fun Gone People?  
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

As a follow-on to a recent thread and something that has been concerning me for a while now, I was just wondering if any of you guys feel the same way about this hobby now, with regards to how we upload especially? I mean, spotting has definitely changed over the years, mainly due to the advent of the internet/web sites. I remember number crunching back in the day and being amazed and excited over how many new registrations and frames I had made. And if I was lucky enough to have captured something rare or exotic on film it made the entire experience that much better. But what is rare these days? What's considered amazing? I go out now and I'm thinking to myself, "Right, this has to be A.net acceptable", or "Will so and so accept this kind of arty shot?"! I shouldn't be doing that, no way!! It isn't even fun anymore! I know what you're all saying though, that you make your own fun, you play to your own rules. That's true. And I think that's what I'm going to have to get back to doing again. I really can't be arsed uploading shots due to them being potentially big hitters like some photogs do; it doesn't make you a better photog does it? It certainly will give you exposure though if your name is in lights every other week I suppose. Well, this is just a little rant that I'm going to fix myself. How do you guys feel though?
Spencer.


EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

I still get that little rush everytime a plane flies low over my head. That little kid feeling at rotation in my window seat, shutter firing. Ducking behind an SUV as a cop rolls by. Eating the $0.99 breakfast at IKEA knowing a full day of spotting is ahead of me. Seeing high crosswinds in the forcast, and knowing it will be a fun for me, and horrible for the pilots. And not once do I even think about a.net.


And it helps a lot that I don't upload here anymore. Big grin

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

For me, it's not like it used to be, even just 3 years into it. Oddly enough, those special amazing shots of aircraft, the ones that drew me into the hobby in mid-2002, That first google search of "airplane photos" that led me to this site, then being completely astounded when there was a whole slough of pictures already from Denver and being like "wow, they have that here?" and seeing the photographers and thinking "wow Alexander Kroychik, Tim Samples, Jeff Miller, and Aaron Mandolesi I wish I could be like those guys, that's so cool!" I hear talk about how quality standards have improved over the years but then yesterday I started looking at the shots that first brought me to this hobby, shots like:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alexander Kroychik
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aaron Mandolesi




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeff Miller
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Samples - CFI-CFII-MEI



And I began to wonder if that has really been the case all the time. This hobby is definetly not what it used to be.


User currently offlineINNflight From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 3767 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Spencer, you're definitely right. Things changed over the years, but IMO it often got better.
Skipping in to what Harry said in reply 1, I still get up on every Saturday and Sunday between December and March, even if I am supposed to sleep long, like most of my friends do on weekends, looking out of the window at 7am, getting a glimpse of the first rays of sun and the snowy mountains, thinking "...camera, CF's, batteries, bag, hot tea,...lets get out!"

For me, standing out in the freezing cold snow at the beginning of a quiet day, with that lovely low sunshine, and the cold air where you could use a 100-400 lens even with a 2x converter and you wouldn't see any heat haze, with the first arrivals rolling in through the yet quiet valley - this all makes it SO worth, doing (aviation) photography!

Of course nowadays when getting home, I can't wait for having a look at the photos, with a hot cappuchino in front of the computer, and also uploading the best ones to A.net.

I am glad nowadays I can show off my best captures to a huge amount of people, because years ago, I would have gone home, get in front of TV and watch. During the next week I'd have brought the film rolls to store, and waited a couple of days. Not that much fun, is it?

Cheers,
F.



Jet Visuals
User currently offlineGranite From UK - Scotland, joined May 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 64
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4533 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hi all

Nothing has changed for me.

Been photographing aircraft since the early 1980's and the fun is still with me today. Yes, Airliners.net has changed over the years but what you have to remember is:

"Photograph for YOU and not for the viewer"

I don't give a toss about hits. If an images gives me less than 100 hits I couldn't give a damn. If it's a nicely composed image, I am more than happy with that.

I don't want my name in lights. I don't want top of the day. I don't want the most popular of the year. I just want a nice image that looks good in print.

Regards

Gary


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
Hi all

Nothing has changed for me.

Been photographing aircraft since the early 1980's and the fun is still with me today. Yes, Airliners.net has changed over the years but what you have to remember is:

"Photograph for YOU and not for the viewer"

I don't give a toss about hits. If an images gives me less than 100 hits I couldn't give a damn. If it's a nicely composed image, I am more than happy with that.

I don't want my name in lights. I don't want top of the day. I don't want the most popular of the year. I just want a nice image that looks good in print.

Regards

Gary

what he said! been doing it since the mid 80's and hits are irrelevant to me, i just enjoy watching planes and collection rego data, sitting in the fresh air and maybe coming home and uploading a few to different sites...best bonus is travelling to different locations and meeting the local people!



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5714 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4516 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Right there with Q077,

Gary and I don't always see eye to eye but on this question I would have written my reply in almost exactly the same words!!

Not a huge reg data collector.. just like photographing planes!!

Regards

Chris



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineJavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

It is the photography and not the spotting that brought me here and since I have so much to learn I do not think I am gonna stop having fun trying the impossible shot anytime soon. I do suffer the A.net syndrome sometimes, which I feel does impair my photography (meaning I sometimes think "is this A.net worthy?" when shooting instead of just shooting the way I like) but I am trying to get over it. I am seriously thinking of following other people's examples and getting myself a nice personal web to show my not A.net material though.

Regards

j



"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlineGPHOTO From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 831 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4437 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Javibi (Reply 7):
I do suffer the A.net syndrome sometimes, which I feel does impair my photography (meaning I sometimes think "is this A.net worthy?" when shooting instead of just shooting the way I like) but I am trying to get over it

It's ok, when you get ideas from other Airliners.net photographers and want to try it out. If you have plenty of memory card space, I wouldn't worry about shooting an angle that you like and then one for Airliners.net. Choose both if you can, but if you can only choose one, shoot for yourself.

Best regards,

Jim



Erm, is this thing on?
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

Of course I agree with all of the above! No doubt. I still enjoy it immensely, however things have changed over the last few years. I've been at this since the late 70s, started out merely as a bit of fun as a kid. It grew on me and became an obsession!! I love it as much now as I did then, but it seems to be more commercial now. I was talking to Ryan Hemmings and Christopher Hammarborg about this the other day; It could all be down to me at the end of the day, who knows? I enjoy being the first out, even on early cold mornings. I enjoy the chase as it's known! It's a fun day out and can involve a lot of travelling, which luckily enough I get to do. I'll still book a flight depending on type and airline even, so to say the fun has disappeared entirely is incorrect of me. I just sometimes wonder if I'm doing this for the right reasons still.....
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5059 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

I don't get the chance to shoot any truly rare or exotic planes (except for Airventure...) but for me personally, what is "rare" is any out-of-the-ordinary aircraft at my local airport. Those are the ones I would love to see online even if the plane is not "rare" in the aviation world. For example, a DC10 tok off from GRB with the football team. They only use the DC10 maybe twice a year here at GRB so this is way rare for me, however, there are 100 shots of this plane on the database.

bruce



Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineGPHOTO From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 831 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4342 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Spencer (Reply 9):
I just sometimes wonder if I'm doing this for the right reasons still.....

Whatever, you do, NEVER think about why you are doing this!  Smile No, really, what we do is strange and illogical and if you think too hard about it, you might just realise how weird we all are and 'drop-back-in' to normal society, never to photograph an aircraft again!

Seriously, you may need to take a bit of time off from aviation photography, then see how long you can last before it sucks you back in.....

Best regards,

Jim



Erm, is this thing on?
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

Jim, I know! It's like a bloody vacuum!!!!
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineRotate From Switzerland, joined Feb 2003, 1491 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
"Photograph for YOU and not for the viewer"

same with me here ... , though you I have ups and downs ...

Robin



ABC
User currently offlineCathay111 From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 55 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4209 times:

The fun is still here! There's lots of fantastic people to meet here!

I shoot because I absolutely love taking photos of planes, being able to share them here (or anywhere else online for that matter) just makes the hobby that little bit more enjoyable.

Who cares how many people look at your photos......

I'm just as grateful to the 76 people that viewed this photo as I am to the 200,000+ that have viewed my most popular photo.....



Gary summed it up perfectly in his post above!!!! And he's one of the fantastic people I've had the pleasure of meeting through this site.


User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
Hi all

Nothing has changed for me.

Been photographing aircraft since the early 1980's and the fun is still with me today. Yes, Airliners.net has changed over the years but what you have to remember is:

"Photograph for YOU and not for the viewer"

I don't give a toss about hits. If an images gives me less than 100 hits I couldn't give a damn. If it's a nicely composed image, I am more than happy with that.

I don't want my name in lights. I don't want top of the day. I don't want the most popular of the year. I just want a nice image that looks good in print.

Regards

Gary

Spot on the nose.


User currently offlineFergulmcc From Ireland, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 5):
best bonus is travelling to different locations and meeting the local people!

This is the best line in this whole thread and I thought I was the only one thinking about it. With the amount of low fare airlines these days, you can get pretty much anywhere in Europe on a budget if you play your cards right get some really cheap flights. You can be pretty much anywhere in Europe in about a 90 min flight. Put a post in the forum of where you are going and I'm sure you'll get a response from someone in the area who would be willing to show you around, and that goes for DUB anyone, just make sure it's a weekend and I would be happy to show anyone around here. I haven't uploaded for a good while now and that's because I have been doing most of my photography for myself. I will get to A.net when I have a chance but right now my photography is more important. I still go out and belive me I have a good few Gig's of photos to process.  Smile

By the way Florian, I have to come and visit your place one of these days, sounds great in the winter,  cold  Big grin

Take care

Fergul  sun 



Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 16):
This is the best line in this whole thread and I thought I was the only one thinking about it.

of course it is mate...it's cos i said it!  Silly seriously though, i've met some of the most generous, fun and accomodating people over the last 4 years and they've made spotting that much more enjoyable, whether it be in America with the great crew in New York, Europe with the crazy spotters in Germany or Japan where white lenses are common place, these are the people that keep me interested and make it fun, knowing that i can call on them and visit just about anytime of the year is enough reason to go out n take photos!

i've been blessed with the love of travel and being a people person, can get along with anyone and chew the fat, not just about planes either, if i could do it for a living i'd be a made man!



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineFergulmcc From Ireland, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 17):
New York, Europe with the crazy spotters in Germany or Japan where white lenses are common place, these are the people that keep me interested and make it fun, knowing that i can call on them and visit just about anytime of the year is enough reason to go out n take photos!

. . . . uhhhhhhmm what about good ole Ireland Monty?? Don't forget us chaps over here. Big grin Always welcome.

Fergul  sun 



Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 18):
. . . . uhhhhhhmm what about good ole Ireland Monty?? Don't forget us chaps over here. Big grin Always welcome.

2006 is the year of Europe and Russia for me mate, january will be back to the USA for a shot at La, Miami and Vegas then i'll plan to head back to Europe later in the year, Russia is a place that's pulling at me and needs doing! i'll be sure to pop into Ireland too, Aussies have a great affection for Ireland! in discussion with Sam about Sth America for july of 2006 also, one place that i really need to visit!

[Edited 2005-10-10 11:43:07]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineChris78cpr From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2822 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4092 times:

Quoting Cathay111 (Reply 14):
I'm just as grateful to the 76 people that viewed this photo as I am to the 200,000+ that have viewed my most popular photo.....

300,898 to be precise mate! Big grin

Chris



5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Well i think i'll add my little 2p's worth now....... *yawns*

Just remember you all have it good where you lot are! I'm stuck with BFS (Easyjet) and BHD (FlyBe) so mabye get away to mainland UK once maybe twice a year. I do because I get a buzz out of it. A buzz out of standing following a plane through your lens and capturing its best moments in your eyes. That will always do it for me. The sounds, the looks, everything.

I went to MAN back in August and didnt see any locals but still had a blast. And i'd do it again if I had the money! Even though i can proudly say I own 350D my photography skills are nothing compared to most of the people on here. But thats the other side to it too. Learning. Each time I go out I do something different. And I learn something each time. Usually not to do something again!

And its been said time and time again, do this hobby for YOU. Nobody else. As much as I wish I had more than my pathetic 9 shots on here, keeping the smile on your face each time doesnt compare.

Colin


User currently offlineFiveholer From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
Hi all

Nothing has changed for me.

Been photographing aircraft since the early 1980's and the fun is still with me today. Yes, Airliners.net has changed over the years but what you have to remember is:

"Photograph for YOU and not for the viewer"

I don't give a toss about hits. If an images gives me less than 100 hits I couldn't give a damn. If it's a nicely composed image, I am more than happy with that.

I don't want my name in lights. I don't want top of the day. I don't want the most popular of the year. I just want a nice image that looks good in print.

Regards

Gary

Well said! I don't need to be a "view whore" to be happy! Big grin

Danny



Bring back Bethune!
User currently offlineIngemarE From Sweden, joined Mar 2005, 285 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

The other day I came home from GSE and had shot 71 frames (is it allowed to call dig.pic's "frames"?!? Wouldn't want to upset the slide shooters!  Wink) Out of those, 68 were non-A.net-potential material. (Horses, birds, rabbits, butterflies, trees.......and the list goes on.)
That's because I do this for me, myself & I,....and for fun!
I just like to use my camera and experiment with it. Most of the time pic's don't come out the way I was aiming for, but I don't really care. At least I had fun, pressing that shutter release! That's what counts, isn't it?!

I'm not going to let myself become too bl**dy serious about this whole aviation-photography thing. It's supposed to be fun, and I intend to keep it that way!
Would love to be able to travel a bit more and go to other airports. If for no other reason, just to meet people with the same interest!
....but all that in due time!



In thrust I trust.
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

I think that's where I've slowly being going wrong IngemarE; been jetting off here and there, shooting like a nutter, not bothering to take in the surroundings and the realness of it all. Just concerned about getting decent shots that I could upload perhaps. The thing is, I was never like that before and I intend on not being like it anymore. I want to get the fun back in this crazy hobby again. For sure, along with the travelling/flying it's the other people I meet along the way that really makes it worthwhile; that and getting a set of shots that you really are happy with. For me this hobby is great and I'll never stop doing it. I know I bitch a bit, but when I'm out there shooting, especially with a friend, then I don't think I really moan that much!! Weird. It's good to see what you others feel on this subject too. Right, now then, let's get wet down that bog called Myrtle! Quick BA 320! Alrighty then!
Spencer.
(In contradictory personal turmoil!!!!!)



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
25 Scooter : That is EXACTLY what burned me out a couple years ago. One day I just woke up and realized that I was travelling a lot, but I wasn't taking the time
26 Post contains images Ryangooner : For me the fun has gone, I haven't been for a days spotting at a major airport since july and thats only because 2 mates came over to England and i ha
27 Aerorobnz : I don't upload to Airliners.net so I still get enjoyment out of taking a photo that matches my own criteria for excellence and updating my collection
28 Viv : Ryan, Those shots of yours are BEAUTIFUL!
29 LHRSIMON : I have given the aviation photography a break for a while to be honest. I was getting so sick of the security/Police looking at me like some sort of c
30 Cadet57 : I think its is espicially hard for new photogs, like me, all 16 shots rejected, every one appealed, and all I got was an upload on myaviation.... Tha
31 SATX : I gave up on the upload part. Only maybe 1 out of 1,000 images I take has any chance at all of being accepted and even then I'd have to endlessly pla
32 Linco22 : Dont lose sight of what you're doing. If i've learnt anything from the leading photographers on here and on other sites along with the people i've met
33 Wickster : I'm bran new to this and have loved Airplanes since I was old enough to understand they flew, which has been a long time, 1944 I just loved the P51. W
34 Post contains images Fergulmcc : What...... and you think the pros don't???!!!! I'm no pro trust me, but I still have to do a good bit of editing in photoshop to get my shots to A.ne
35 Scooter : Yes, that is exactly what it's about. Pressing the shutter button is only one small step in the digital photography process. I don't upload my images
36 GPHOTO : I've had 498 photos accepted here. I have had a few point-and-shoots, never held a DSLR let alone owned one and use Photoshop Elements 3.0. Hardly ex
37 Post contains images DLKAPA : Maybe that's not such a good idea
38 Post contains images SATX : No, I'm quite sure they do. However, I'm not sure how I gave the opposite impression. No, but it sure helps. Many of the rejection messages seem to b
39 Post contains images GPHOTO : I didn't say it had to be alcohol containing But, yes, after I've finished the drink, I either find that I'm ready to get very creative or I need to
40 StealthZ : Nothing to do with "digital", pressing the shutter was only one small step in film based photography as well, do you think Ansel Adams' masterpieces
41 Post contains images Fergulmcc : SATX, You raise some good points but the only persson that can answer them is yourself ... and maybe you have. I have only been with A.net for a year
42 Bo__einG : My excitement of aviation photography comes from not from digital camera use for taking shots of planes. (I actually hate digital cameras due to their
43 Post contains images Fergulmcc : That's my whole point Bo, enjoy it, be it slides, film or digital. Too often, myself included, we get so frustrated with a rejection and we loose the
44 Post contains images SATX : Okay, whatever. I enjoy the forums and viewing the photos, I just don't enjoy jumping through all the hoops that must be navigated to get a photo acc
45 Post contains images Fergulmcc : You don't say!! Missed that point! I did! I just thought I could help, remind me next time not to bother. You are the one that is moaning about what
46 F4wso : I think the fun is still here on a grand scale! I had a great week photographing at Frankfurt. It was great to see some different airlines; skies were
47 Jwenting : Well said, which is why I stopped uploading anywhere. I don't want to spend hours to make something look just like it comes out of a Canon DSLR so it
48 Post contains images SATX : Just because many/most posts on the photography forum are cries for help doesn't mean that my post was meant in the same vein. How would you like me
49 MarkJbeckwith : Holy cr#p! I take pictures, enjoy the day out, upload if I feel like it and I don't take it personally when this PRIVATELY OWNED site which makes its
50 Post contains images Aviopic : I am not so sure Gary. What's the point of a beautiful landscape if you are blind ? What's the point of beautiful music if you are deaf ? What's the
51 Post contains images Fergulmcc : I took it that you were, sorry if I jumped the gun. Normally if someone offers help they don't usually ignor the person or say Whatever! I was merely
52 Post contains images AviatorTJ : Mark, I could not have said it better myself. That was nicely put. Upload when you feel like uploading, shoot pictures when you want to shoot. Post p
53 Boeingfan71 : i love the thrill of looking up flight times and getting my parents to drive me out to the airport. i am still waiting to capture a 747. it took me 14
54 Post contains images LHRSIMON : This whole thread somewhat proves why i have given aviation a break for the past 2 months !!!!!!! It looks real run You don't get is cr#p in other are
55 Post contains links SmithAir747 : Now that I'm living here in London, I love to go out to LHR on Saturdays (if sunny) (and even Sundays, if I skip church in the morning!). Of the three
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