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Disturbing News For AMS Spotting  
User currently offlineIL76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2237 posts, RR: 48
Posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4897 times:

Ok, I only just read it (nu.nl, in dutch) that Schiphol is having problems with the incredible amount of people watching planes around the airport. With the terrorism threats and the huge task to keep an eye on the perimeter, they say that a sticter policy will be taken on and many 'illegal' spots as they call it will be more closely monitored. This problem is for example caused by the many people parking their cars near fences and creating dangerous road situations.
I'm not sure if this means more measures will be taken (fences, etc.), but I guess that's where it will start: ban cars and messy road situations... The official 3 locations (06-24, 09-27 and the terrace) will stay and most probably also the the Polderbaan bicycle path will remail untouched.

Eduard

(Edit, trying to get the link to work)

[Edited 2005-10-24 10:03:28]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSfilipowicz From Netherlands, joined Jul 2002, 327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

Hi,

I also read the shocking news, and I think in the near future we will see fences and some great places will not be accessable anymore. I think the spot at the head of 36L will soon be history.  Sad

Steven.


User currently offlineAnder From Spain, joined Jan 2005, 367 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

Eduard,
That is sad news for all of us, AMS being one of the few photog friendly airport around!!! worried 
Keep us posted, please,

Ander



Born to tri.
User currently offlineSulman From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2035 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

So what does this mean in terms of actual viewing areas? Will spotting at AMS be that badly affected, or is it just a some sensitive locations that will be secured?


It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
User currently offlineIL76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2237 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4850 times:

James,
We don't know yet, it's still speculating, but things are bound to change. If this is just a change for those with a car, or if it's a change where spots will simply become inaccessible, that remains a bit unclear. It's a wait and see situation, but I don't like it. It will definitely not get better if you ask me...
Eduard


User currently offlineVarig767 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 243 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

The NOS (Dutch News Network) is stating on "Teletekst" that the rural district of Haarlemmermeer will cooperate with AMS to make a number of areas inaccessible...

They are also stating that the Polderbaan (36L/18R) has no official viewing areas.

A year ago, AMS has invested in a system whereby you should pay 1 euro to access the visitors terrace. With the revenues, AMS then could expand the vistors terrace towards the C-gates.

This was a year ago, the paying machines at the entrance of the vistors terrace are still there, but it is still free... in other words, no expansion.

regards, Martijn


User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4790 times:
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I doubt the Polderbaan is an issue here since disturbance to traffic or neighbours is very limited there. The road to 06/24 or the road parallel to the taxiway on the other hand can be very very crowded during the weekend and people seem to park anywhere. Limiting the number of spots does not seem all that smart to me in that light as the 06/24 spot will only get busier (until it's closed anyway in a few years when the new cargo apron will be built).

A lot of it has to with the behaviour of some people too. E.g. everyone knows that on a bikelane no cars are allowed, yet some people deem it necessary to drive their car along the polderbaan bikelane, and yes I have seen photographers do this too, so much for thinking ahead...

Anyway, we'll see how it turns out, I doubt the best spots will disappear.

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

Some weeks ago the airport police moved me (and others) away from the spot near the tank farm (by the canal).

They were doing this every two hours or so.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlinePH-OTO From Netherlands, joined Mar 2002, 434 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4759 times:

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 6):
A lot of it has to with the behaviour of some people too. E.g. everyone knows that on a bikelane no cars are allowed, yet some people deem it necessary to drive their car along the polderbaan bikelane, and yes I have seen photographers do this too, so much for thinking ahead...

Yep, my thoughts. Other thing is that AMS is becoming a victim of its own success. Simply too much people in the weeekends and on holidays.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 6):
I doubt the best spots will disappear.

I'll keep my fingers crossed, but fear the worst for Taxiway Victor (where stopping is already prohibited) and places like the line up of the Polderbaan.

I hope that the authorities consult spotter societies with their plans, to prevend more useless locations like the McDonald's parking place.

Martin



Look very closely between the lines of this message, and you will see the captain beating up the jumpseater
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

That is an extremely dangerous road to be, you were moved for traffic safety not because you were spotting.

I always take care to park in such a way traffic can pass unobstructed and NEVER stand on the road. Sadly many others (and yes, mainly foreigners who will be gone in a day or so rather than come to the airport every other week at least) don't seem to care about the longterm consequences of their actions.
These are the same people who place ladders up against fences and sometimes bring wirecutters to make holes, causing police crackdowns.

It looks like we'll see increased police activity, more no-parking signs (and for once actually enforced), and people being told to move from places they're not doing any harm (like the gate along the V-taxiway, where most people park in such a way that traffic and the gate are not obstructed).

I can fully understand why they're doing this, even if I suffer as a consequence.
I have seen dangerous situations because of inconsiderate spotters, but as I'm usually alone there's little I can personally do about it (I'm not going to tell someone he's endangering our hobby if it looks he'll punch me in the face or worse, if you're in a group there's less risk of that).
Luckily I've only seen a single traffic accident near a group of spotters in 5 years and that one not directly related (speeding car combined with kid not looking before crossing the road).
Let's just hope they act selectively and remove only those actually causing the problems, leaving those who set a good example in peace, but I doubt it.

Worst case would be Heathrow-like fences all along the perimeter and the spotting places closed (there are already some complaints about littering attracting flocks of birds, causing hazards to navigation, let's not give them more excuses).

The road along the 06-24 will likely close sometime 2006, maybe 2007 at the latest. Construction of the first building across the road is already underway, it won't be much longer now and that will mean the end of the official spotting there as well, leaving only the spot along the 27 (almost useless for photography most of the day) and the terrace (useless for photographing anything taking off or landing, mainly useful for seeing KLM and Transavia taxi past).

Schiphol could turn from the best place for spotting into one of the worst because of infrequent visitors who don't care about the consequences of their actions.
Thank you all.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

According spokesman Mr. Wever terror is the most important reason for all this BS.
In some articles he expresses his worries that terrorist might attack planes with rockets  Confused.
They have gone completely nuts if you ask me.
- First of all why should a terrorist equipped with this material go to a spotters place ? That is probably the only place he or she does not want to be besides there is no need to be so close to the airport.
- Secondly if you were a terrorist would you go to an airport with fences and no people or to an airport without fences and a 1000 people with camera's watching you, I know what my choice would be.

It's the many people at Schiphol that keep the place safe and they are about to make it unsafe.

Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3370 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

This is the article (translated) that planet.nl has on its website. It has already been posted in an earlier thread, but since this thread actually seems to be read I'll re-post it.  

I have put a few bits in bold.

Quote:
Schiphol plagued with spotters.

Published monday the 24th of october 2005.
SCHIPHOL (ANP) - Schiphol wants to curb the increase of spotters. In co-operation with the borough of Haarlemmermeer they are looking to "limit the number of locations spotters use", confirmed spokesperson R. Wever.

The increased terror threat is part of the reason for this later initiative, although he stresses there is no imminent danger at Schiphol. Next to that local people are more and more disturbed by the spotters. Traffic safety is also named as a factor.

Since two years spotters and tourists alike flock to the airport whenever there is good weather. They also enter places they are not supposed to enter. The main cause for this is the opening of the Polderbaan early 2003. There are no fascilities for spotters are this runway. Due to the construction of the A5 motorway, a few months prior to the Polderbaan, spotters are no longer able to go around the Zwanenburgbaan.

Officially Schiphol has three spotters sites. The observation platform at the terminal, the Mac Donalds alongside the Buitenveldertbaan and a parking lot at the Kaagbaan.

Outside these locations a lot of unofficial spots have been taken in use. That's why the airport is trying to regulate the spots. Schiphol did say they will want to satisfy the interest in spotting. He denies that the illegal locations, he counts roughly 12, will disappear. A workgroup is looking into the spots, to see if more official spots may be opened. When this will happen remains unclear.

Schiphol is visited by several 100s of spotters. Next to that there are tourists whenever there is good weather. Someone could be in that crowd that wants to cause harm. In november 2002 an Israeli airliner taking of from the Kenyan city of Mombasa was fired at with rockets, they fortunately missed their target.

"Most people don't harm anyone, but they park their cars haphazzardly, on the roadside for instance. This causes dangerous situations.


[Edited 2005-10-24 23:37:57]


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4605 times:
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  no 


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineDiezel From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

I agree with Willem, it is the people that keep Schiphol safe!

Schiphol is huge and there are tons of locations where you could fire at a plane without even being seen, and that is not the spotters locations.

I do think however that not all people living in the airport area appreciate the tons of people (and cars) visiting the airport during the weekend, leaving trash, parking on the bicycle lanes and other no go areas. It is getting to a point that something needs to be done about this. And I guess that that is where we are looking at.

I always had (and still have) a good relationship with Schiphol security as had most of the photogs I think. They frequently helped me by shouting from a distance that a runway was about to close and I usually got a friendly wave from them. In return I helped them often with removing trash cans and garbage from the canal next to 18R/36L.

Well, let's just wait and see what happens!

Roel.



Never be afraid of what you like. (Miles Davis)
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

Quoting Diezel (Reply 13):
I do think however that not all people living in the airport area appreciate the tons of people (and cars) visiting the airport during the weekend, leaving trash, parking on the bicycle lanes and other no go areas. It is getting to a point that something needs to be done about this. And I guess that that is where we are looking at.

And I have to agree with you Roel, as I stated in another thread some time ago people do make a mess and yes they park wherever they want.
So they answer is "MORE" spotting place and "MORE" care Parks instead of less.
The mess is usually not coming from the regular spotters and photographers but from the "a day out visitors".
So if they truly want to regulate something then they better make sure the regulars are getting a batch or something so they can be tracked or whatever.
I'll bet we will have a clean and safe place in no time.

Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

We've had this debate lots before. Particularly in the UK, unless you are parked blocking a crashgate etc., what are you doing wrong?

I have nothing against observation, it is when it comes to the Police basically bullying people that I take exception.

If you are on a public road or private land, under Dutch law, what can they do to stop you being there? The main argument against "us" over here seems to be that we waist Ploice time as a result of the inconsiderate people parking in places they shouldn't etc., but my counter argument to that is that you get that even at the "unfriendly" airports, such as LHR and LGW, so even if spotters/photographers being there is no enhancement to security at all (which I would also dispute), by having "heavy handed" tactics, you don't solve anything.

Keep within the law and enjoy your hobby Big grin

Tim.



Obviously missing something....
User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (8 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 10):
In some articles he expresses his worries that terrorist might attack planes with rockets .
They have gone completely nuts if you ask me.
- First of all why should a terrorist equipped with this material go to a spotters place ? That is probably the only place he or she does not want to be besides there is no need to be so close to the airport.
- Secondly if you were a terrorist would you go to an airport with fences and no people or to an airport without fences and a 1000 people with camera's watching you, I know what my choice would be.

Just read this again now. This is exactly the kind of bull some airports in the UK give as an excuse. They don't seem to realize just how many sq. miles would have to be "off limits" to fully protect an aircraft. As far as I am concerned, if it gets to the point where you have someone at the side of the runway with a rocket, then the battle is already lost.

Tim.



Obviously missing something....
User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 10):
terror is the most important reason for all this BS.

Ok,
I will make a turn and disagree here.

2 weeks ago I was at the parking at 06-24, very packed as you see families come doing spotting in the weekend. Even saw an old hadicapped granny there. I find this very fun as I think spotting here in Holland have become something of a social event. You bring your kids (me included) go do some spotting and buy an ice-cream for the kids or something.

Anyway, that weekend there was a teenage girl who standing by the fence, on the wrong side of it!!!
This pisses me off and I told her to climb back or I would call security.
She was looking at me like I was an idiot, which is ok. She doesn't know me anyway.
Eventually she climed back and then, offcourse the security drove by and didn't notice her.

What I mean with all this is that we are all responsible for keeping the spotterplaces for what they are.
I do interfear if I see something wrong which is not in accordance with the airport regulations.
Terrorism is not to be taken lightly, and I do in some way appreciate the concern.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

Quoting Sudden (Reply 17):
Terrorism is not to be taken lightly, and I do in some way appreciate the concern.

In that case they have to clear an 50 mile area around every airport because within that area all aircrafts are well within Stinger range.
So are we gonna evacuate A'dam and the whole Haarlemmermeer plus all the rest ?



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 18):
So are we gonna evacuate A'dam and the whole Haarlemmermeer plus all the rest ?

I will not even lower myself to give a comment on that.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 15):
If you are on a public road or private land, under Dutch law, what can they do to stop you being there?

Put up more no-stopping signs and start enforcing them.
Place closed fences (like at Heathrow) around the place instead of open chain-link (or none at all).
Not yet but coming, arrest you for endangering public safety (terrorism laws, not dissimilar to what Tony is trying to get put in place in the UK).

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 18):
So are we gonna evacuate A'dam and the whole Haarlemmermeer plus all the rest ?

Would clean things up around there  Smile

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 18):
In that case they have to clear an 50 mile area around every airport because within that area all aircrafts are well within Stinger range.

would make the country a rather empty place... I could move back in with my parents, now that Deelen is closed and Soesterberg going to be I'd probably be safe there unless they class Teuge as an airport.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 20):
Put up more no-stopping signs and start enforcing them.

Parking violations are one of the things that the Police seem to be able to use to great effect around airports to get people to move on, when in reality the reason they want you to do so is a misinformed view on potential terrorism, but they don't have any real power to shift you (unless they want to be really silly).

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 20):
Place closed fences (like at Heathrow) around the place instead of open chain-link (or none at all).

I have mixed feelings on this. There are a couple of airports I visit now and then that don't have a perimeter fence all the way round. While as a photographer and law abiding citizen I would like it to stay that way, I can see that there should at least be some provision to stop people from walking onto the airfield.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 20):
Not yet but coming, arrest you for endangering public safety (terrorism laws, not dissimilar to what Tony is trying to get put in place in the UK).

Obviously a big fuss about this in the UK at the minute, but I think you'd have pretty good grounds to take legal action against the Police if they arrested you under the terrorism act for taking pictures of aircraft from outside of the perimeter fence.

I just hope that aviation enthusiasts in Europe as a whole, not just the UK, don't start to be treated as pariahs, like has happened to our American friends to some extent.

Regards,

Tim.



Obviously missing something....
User currently offlineVarig767 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 243 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4369 times:

Quoting Sudden (Reply 17):
Anyway, that weekend there was a teenage girl who standing by the fence, on the wrong side of it!!!
This pisses me off and I told her to climb back or I would call security.

Hey, I invite you to drive a little further than the parking lot at the 06-24, and then look at your leftside. Dozens of photographers who have crossed the very little channel. I assume you won't tell those fellow photographers to go back to the road, or do you?

In other words, the fence we are talking about isn't there for security reasons. Though I agree with you that the girl shouldn't have been standing there (you are right, she has climbed over the fence; which is illegal), I think you exaggerated a little bit by threatening with calling security.

regards, Martijn


User currently offlineJeffm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 21):
when in reality the reason they want you to do so is a misinformed view on potential terrorism,

...and they should listen to your view instead? It sounds like you have information they don't?


User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (8 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4356 times:

Quoting Jeffm (Reply 23):
...and they should listen to your view instead? It sounds like you have information they don't?

Absolutely. Then we'd all be able to go about our hobby with no interferences and our airports wouldn't be any less safe.



Obviously missing something....
25 JRadier : You're not safe, they are going to resurface the main runway again, and it will become more active in the future. And you still have the heli's at de
26 AirKas1 : I'll defend this one then. Do you think he could've ever gotten the girl to step back just by telling her she had to step back?? Sometimes you need s
27 Jwenting : hmm, hadn't heard about that. I had heard the helis will move to Eindhoven or Gilze in the near future to cut cost, allowing Deelen to be completely
28 Post contains images Aviopic : Huh.... what is so low about my statement ? Or do you mean it is easier to shoot an airplane down from my backyard because they are flying so low ? I
29 JRadier : The base is now used as a training base for the 'Luchtmobiele Brigade', and last week there was a new load of army recruits on the field on a trainin
30 G-CIVP : I'm going to get shot down for this (!) but I take it the 06/24 parking lot is going to disappear completely, so what are the prospects for using the
31 Petertenthije : For the near future that won't be a problem I think (assuming the land is actually owned by Schiphol or the borough!). However, it is the intention t
32 Jwenting : In 2 years max (estimate, could be sooner depending on when construction gets seriously underway or later if there's more trouble with treehuggers) t
33 Sudden : Well, then I would be a suspect if anything happens as I live right under, more or less, final approach to 09-27. I am not here to argue with you, bu
34 G-CIVP : Jwenting Thanks for the reply. I think it is a real pity that 06/24 will disappear. I'm aware that it would happen but hoped it wouldn't be so soon. I
35 Petertenthije : That area is already filled with offices and a parking lot (P30).
36 Jwenting : Not to mention the cargo ramp itself already runs the length of the runway whereever it can, every meter of space is used. Expanding on the other side
37 Cschleic : That's very discouraging to hear. I've been to the 06/24 car parking lot twice and it's fantastic for touchdown and rotation shots. There seem to be s
38 IL76 : Before this thread becomes too grim, please note again that the measures announced do not affect the current dedicated spotting areas. The 06-24 spott
39 Jwenting : That long term planning is 2 years from now... Guess I'll be taking the train and bring my bike, no problems with no-parking signs that way (and get s
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