Invader From Netherlands, joined Feb 2000, 307 posts, RR: 15 Posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3010 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHIEF DATABASE EDITOR
As there have been some discussions lately about the categories “Special” and “Hybrid/Special Marking”, their descriptions have now been revised to solve the issues.
The names and descriptions of these two categories date from the early Anet days, when everything wasn’t so precisely defined as that wasn’t necessary then for a small database. Colourschemes which the photographer found eyecatching or beautiful got “Special” and white aircraft or mixed schemes of two companies got “Hybrid/Special Markings”.
As the database was growing all the time, many inconsistencies became apparent, mainly caused by the rather vague category descriptions. Due to continuous enquiries about what to do in specific cases, a more precise definition of these categories became necessary. To make more sense and to have a more logical system, a few things will be different from previous practice.
HYBRID
This category will now be for all-white, hybrid, mixed, non-standard and not-own colourschemes, of airliners only.
Please note: this category is for AIRLINERS ONLY!
Examples:
all-white or almost all-white airliners (that is, when fully white is not the standard scheme of the company!), with or without titles. E.g.
airliners in a mix of colourschemes, e.g. painted in the colours of one company but having the titles of another, or the tail in the colours of one company and the fuselage in the colours of another. E.g.
airliners which fly in the full standard colourscheme of one company, but that are owned or operated by another company. Among these are also all Delta Connection, Team Lufthansa, Northwest Airlink, etc airliners. Most of the aircraft that have two airlines listed in the Airline field will fall within this category.
This category will now be for special one-off colour schemes, or for special, mostly temporary, markings.
This category was previously only for airliners, but, on popular request, is now also open for military aircraft. A number of viewers will however not be happy to find military aircraft between their airliners. But since the “Civil only” option exists in the “Range” window of the Aviation Photo Search Engine, it is easy to exclude the military aircraft.
For civil aircraft the category is only for airliners that satisfy the following conditions:
when they have special one-off colorschemes just for fun (also including schemes like Star Alliance), e.g.:
this also applies to aircraft that have the announcement very small (in fact all variations between the two extremes are existing and to prevent endless discussions they shall all be listed in this category, even when they only have a small sticker). E.g.:
aircraft with slogans (but not things like "Qualiflyer", "UNICEF" (on JAL planes), "IATA member, etc). Qualifying for this category are e.g. the "No way BA/AA" or "Do not forget our POW" slogans for these photos:
travel agency advertising. The “special” category applies to those sponsor schemes that have nothing to do with the passengers or cargo of the aircraft. E.g. the Crossair "McDonald's" aircraft is not transporting McDonald's customers and is also not bringing hamburgers to McDonald's. It is a different matter however when the markings or colourscheme is for a travel agency for whom the aircraft is transporting passengers. There are e.g. photos that have the airline listed as "Palmair (Flightline)". This aircraft belongs to Flightline (a real airline) but transports passengers for Palmair (a travel agency) whose titles it is carrying. Those travel agencies shall be considered as “airlines", because their titles are not just an advertisement, but these aircraft are specifically transporting customers of those travel agencies. Other examples are e.g. "Apple Vacations (Ryan International Airlines)", "Thomson Holidays (Britannia Airways)" and many more. They shall not have the category “special” but the category “hybrid”. E.g.:
For military aircraft the category is only for those aircraft that satisfy the following conditions:
the aircraft has a special one-off commemorative scheme, for e.g. a "50 year" squadron birthday, or commemorating 200.000 flight hours, or has a special Tiger Meeting scheme, etc. Examples:
The category is thus NOT for demonstration teams like the Blue Angels, the Frecce Tricolori, the Red Arrows, etc, because their colourschemes are standard colourschemes for their teams, like:
That completes the new descriptions of these two categories. Of course there will always be some border cases, then just use common sense in the spirit of what is stated above.
The Help files and other places where changes are necessary, will be updated in the near future.
DLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2993 times:
Hmmmm. So if I'm to understand this correctly, all Express operators in the U.S. are now Hybrids? To me, that doesn't make much sense, because very few are actually in a true "Hybrid" color scheme combination of 2 airlines.
Mikephotos From United States, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 63 Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2956 times:
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 2): Hmmmm. So if I'm to understand this correctly, all Express operators in the U.S. are now Hybrids? To me, that doesn't make much sense, because very few are actually in a true "Hybrid" color scheme combination of 2 airlines.
I agree. I don't believe they should fall under Hybrid unless they truly have a hybrid livery. A Comair CRJ in full Delta livery is hardly a hybrid.
DC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1394 posts, RR: 21 Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2949 times:
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 2): So if I'm to understand this correctly, all Express operators in the U.S. are now Hybrids?
This does seem a bit strange when the livery is applied to the whole fleet and US Airways Express standard livery is US Airways livery with their titling.
Though I welcome the move to clarify matters, I think this will cause confusion.
Invader From Netherlands, joined Feb 2000, 307 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2934 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHIEF DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 2): Hmmmm. So if I'm to understand this correctly, all Express operators in the U.S. are now Hybrids? To me, that doesn't make much sense, because very few are actually in a true "Hybrid" color scheme combination of 2 airlines.
Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 3): I don't believe they should fall under Hybrid unless they truly have a hybrid livery. A Comair CRJ in full Delta livery is hardly a hybrid.
The name of the category is only a name, it also could have been named "Mix" or something else. The description of the category is what tells you what to include.
The Express operators in the US (but also the ones in Europe flying for e.g. British Airways, Air France, etc) are certainly "mixed" aircraft because they are owned by one company but fly in the colours of another, just like e.g. also the Air Berlin/Transavia example given in the original posting.
would be categorised as 'Special', because it has the slogan 'You never forget the first time' on the side?
If so this is a bit troublesome for me. I know I am not a 'proper' spotter, but am I not right in thinking that almost all Virgin's fleet have some kind of 'comment' like this on the fuselage? Thus they would all be 'Special' now and there would therefore be no such thing as a 'Normal' Virgin Atlantic livery.
Mikephotos From United States, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 63 Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2897 times:
Quoting Invader (Reply 5): The Express operators in the US (but also the ones in Europe flying for e.g. British Airways, Air France, etc) are certainly "mixed" aircraft because they are owned by one company but fly in the colours of another, just like e.g. also the Air Berlin/Transavia example given in the original posting.
What about aircraft owned by a leasing company but flown by an airline? Wouldn't that then fall under the same. Just curious. I'm not trying to change any rules just offering my opinion for what it's worth
Rotate From Switzerland, joined Feb 2003, 1379 posts, RR: 26 Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2882 times:
Quoting Psych (Reply 7): If so this is a bit troublesome for me. I know I am not a 'proper' spotter, but am I not right in thinking that almost all Virgin's fleet have some kind of 'comment' like this on the fuselage? Thus they would all be 'Special' now and there would therefore be no such thing as a 'Normal' Virgin Atlantic livery.
Yes, I think so , same goes as mentioned for the "soccernose" , EK advertisment, special slogans at VS, Ryanair, etc ... , even if "most of" the fleet does have this marking.
Psych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 2672 posts, RR: 66 Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2864 times:
Robin.
I take your point, but the reason I felt happy with the old rules that these examples (such as the soccer noses on LH aircraft or the stickers promoting the '06 World Cup on Emirates) were 'Hybrid' was that those markings, though seen a lot throughout the fleet, were temporary. It seems to me to be 'standard' and 'normal' for Virgin airliners to have some kind of 'clever' comment on the back of their fuselages (in the same way that it was standard/normal in the old days for British Airways aircraft to have varying world images on the tail).
It seems to me to be anomalous that an airline could not have a 'Normal' livery at all in a category system.
Paul
P.S. I am really sorry to sound negative, as I don't envy those trying to sort this out (and certainly do not wish to belittle their efforts), but having read through this a few times now I think there are more anomalies, inconsistencies and potential confusions than there were before. It seems to me you have to be a real expert to know what to do now.
TZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2861 times:
I love the true special schemes, like the Pokemon & Disney planes, the Simpsons 737, the McDonald's and Hertz logojets, etc.
How do I search for these in the database without having to wade through countless images of bog-standard Lufthansa Airbuses with unimaginative soccer-balls painted on the nose?
Thanks in advance,
TZ
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
TZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 60 Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2851 times:
If a so-called "special scheme" military aircraft passes into civil hands (and is airworthy, of course), is it still a "special scheme" AND a "warbird", or does it cease to be considered special once its ownership changes?
TZ
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
Newark777 From United States, joined Dec 2004, 8796 posts, RR: 41 Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2836 times:
Quoting Tamsin (Reply 11): I love the true special schemes, like the Pokemon & Disney planes, the Simpsons 737, the McDonald's and Hertz logojets, etc.
Same with the Hybrids. I would love to find the "true" hybrids with interesting paint not usually seen, but now have to sort through thousands of RJ pictures.
Spencer From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2004, 1134 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2822 times:
Tamsin, couldn't you just do a search and in the keywords box type in Disney or Pokemon or whatever? Then check the airline box under whichever airline it is you're interested in searching? You could even check colourful paint schemes or what-not in the category box.
Spencer.
DLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2816 times:
Quoting Invader (Reply 5): The name of the category is only a name, it also could have been named "Mix" or something else. The description of the category is what tells you what to include.
Your comments I'm sorry to say still don't make much sense.
Quoting Tamsin (Reply 11): How do I search for these in the database without having to wade through countless images of bog-standard Lufthansa Airbuses with unimaginative soccer-balls painted on the nose?
Or for example I'm searching for some nostalgia and I want to see the CO/FL (original Frontier) hybrid 732's? Do I now have to wade through hundreds and hundreds of shots of Expressjet's ERJs?
TZ From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2003, 1085 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2810 times:
Quoting Spencer (Reply 14): Tamsin, couldn't you just do a search and in the keywords box type in Disney or Pokemon or whatever? Then check the airline box under whichever airline it is you're interested in searching?
Hi Spencer
I don't see many remarks with consistent entries containing the name of the scheme, and indeed a big percentage of the remarks are totally empty. I have no idea who flies some of these logojets (are the Pokemon ones ANA?), so it's not straightforward to search that way.
I must be having a bad-hair day, but I can't fathom out how to search for the logojets any longer...
TZ
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
Dendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 70 Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2807 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
I wonder that if that before these changes were implemented there could be a period of thrashing out these issues here...to get it right first time rather than making more minor adjustments in the future.
Clearly the previous system wasn't working too well and already anomalies are being raised.
A period of discussion here could save a lot of rejections and screeners time.
Mick Bajcar
JFKTOWERFAN From United States, joined Sep 2001, 1099 posts, RR: 23 Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2799 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 15): Or for example I'm searching for some nostalgia and I want to see the CO/FL (original Frontier) hybrid 732's? Do I now have to wade through hundreds and hundreds of shots of Expressjet's ERJs?
No you use the photo search engine and input what you are looking for and wham-o there it is.
DLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2782 times:
Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 18): No you use the photo search engine and input what you are looking for and wham-o there it is.
The problem with that is that the only way to do this type of search would be through keywords, and the only place a "hybrid" remark would be is in the photo's caption. Unfortunately, many photo captions from this time period are blank.
SoBe From United States, joined Oct 2004, 244 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2774 times:
Quoting Tamsin (Reply 11): How do I search for these in the database without having to wade through countless images of bog-standard Lufthansa Airbuses with unimaginative soccer-balls painted on the nose?
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 13): Same with the Hybrids. I would love to find the "true" hybrids with interesting paint not usually seen, but now have to sort through thousands of RJ pictures.
Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 18): No you use the photo search engine and input what you are looking for and wham-o there it is.
What if I don't know what I am looking for? Say I just want to browse the database and look at those photos that interest me. I will grow quite bored very quickly seeing thumbs of aircraft that may meet the a.net definition of hybrid and special but are not what I and I think others as well think of as hybrid or special.
JFKTOWERFAN From United States, joined Sep 2001, 1099 posts, RR: 23 Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 19): The problem with that is that the only way to do this type of search would be through keywords
I entered Boeing 737-100/200 for type, CO for airline, and "other special paint schemes" and got these:
DLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
That works for now but as has been said above, if people are going to be browsing through hybrids, they don't want to be browsing through thousands of shots of UAx CRJ's.
D L X From United States, joined May 1999, 7810 posts, RR: 55 Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2712 times:
Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 22): That works for now but as has been said above, if people are going to be browsing through hybrids, they don't want to be browsing through thousands of shots of UAx CRJ's.
I agree. There are a lot more of these shots out there (and will soon be made) than there are true hybrids. Also, it will be a real shame (and probably an extra load on the photo queue) if people get rejected for wrong category when they don't designate it a hybrid because it's an express jet.
KFLLCFII From United States, joined Sep 2004, 3088 posts, RR: 41 Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2692 times:
Oh good Lord.
Category rejections were always a minor headache (and something the screeners should be able to correct as easily as they can reject), but this just turned into a full-on migraine.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
AviatorTJ From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1805 posts, RR: 13 Reply 25, posted (3 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2648 times:
So, my understanding is that because the title is hybrid that the photo is to be marked as hybrid. I believe that most people come to Airliners.net to search photographs. A CRJ flown in the UA livery is a full livery, but will now show up under hybrid. Doesn't make sense here, but that's why I don't make the rules.
We're the only way out.
26 StealthZ: I like the idea of clarifying the criteria but I am not convinced this latest effort actually works I am not a big fan of all the feeder/commuter/expr
27 Je89_w: I'm a little unsure as to what category JALways (Reso'cha)/Japan Airlines (Reso'cha)/JAL Super Resort Express/Japan Air Charter (JAZ) fall under: Coul
28 Hawaiian717: I agree that ordinary affiliate-operated aircraft should not be labeled as hybrids. Take, for example, American Eagle. American Eagle is a wholly-owne
29 Bubbles: Hi, Could anyone help me on this rejection? The rejection reason is category. I didn't check any special category for this shot when uploading it. I t
30 JFKTOWERFAN: Hey Hongyin it should be Hybrid as it is still partially in the Excel scheme(the former operator) Corey
31 Bubbles: Thank you so much, Corey! Regards, _Hongyin_
33 DLKAPA: It's not a warbird, warbirds are military aircraft not flying for the military anymore.
34 Frippe: Hi everybody, I just wonder what I have to do with photos now being in the pipeline and already uploaded. Are they to be removed by me and sorted afte
35 Psych: Good morning all. Am I the only one who is somewhat surprised that this discussion has not continued apace? I assumed this thread would go into the hu
36 Paulinbna: What about Frontier. Every one of there aircraft are different is it special, hybird, or what???? Edited to correct spelling.[Edited 2006-01-21 10:42:
37 TransIsland: Help, please... Which category does this one fit in then, as it's neither UP's old nor UP's new colour scheme. I have a photo of this bird that I woul
38 JFKTOWERFAN: Frontier should just be OTHER. They fall under the same guidelines as the BA World tails mentioned above. Correct. Corey
39 Hawaiian717: I think I figured out the point of contention, especially with respect to the regional affiliate issue. From what it sounds like, any aircraft operate
40 C133: Does this seem like quicksand to the average guy or is it just me? Way too complicated and intricate, IMHO....
41 DLKAPA: But the BA world tails were more of a special/different thing compared to the rest of BA's fleet. Alot of the fleet had the tails, alot did not. With
42 StealthZ: Terry, seems like quicksand to me. I would like to expand on my earlier post about Hybrid Regional A/C. In my opinion the following 2 A/C are not Hybr
43 DLKAPA: Is wearing full United colors and is carrying the customers of United Airlines. In an attempt to clarify an issue, what's been done has just made it
44 Mattbna: Technically, that US Airways Express bird does display the owner (just like the United Express photo you have shown) - to the right-hand side of the
45 Hawaiian717: You have to remember the intent. The world tails were several different designs, and eventually every BA aircraft would have one tail design or anoth
46 Dendrobatid: It certainly seems that way to me too and if it does to so many experienced contibutors, it will be a minefield for a newcomer to the site. A couple
47 StealthZ: No that A/C displays operated by Skywest next to the door. which by the definition in the thread starter makes it a hybrid. OK I stand corrected, I h
49 StealthZ: Yep.. But a neat photo all the same!!! C
50 Psych: Please Guys - rethink this change. It has done little to iron out the problems with these categories. I was out speaking to some MAN photographers thi
52 Norfolkjohn: I can only add my support to the vast majority of people that have already contributed to this thread. The wording of the old definitions was clearly
53 Psych: John - well said. Yours is a voice of unfailing reason on this Forum. All the best. Paul
54 Jaspike: The two examples you gave are both in different categories - so searching for special schemes (aka COLORFUL_PAINT) would bring you ones like Peter Ma
55 DLKAPA: Hey man, you're trying and I'll give you that. The issue being put forth is like runoff from a pig farm, runny and full of pig poo and piss. What you
56 Dendrobatid: Tom I certainly think that is a substantial part of the problem. If the livery is standard, why should the aircraft be categorised as anything other
57 APFPilot1985: IMHO, the change is silly. I would have rather have seen a change in the classification of privately owned aircraft and business jets, instead of thes
58 Embraer145: What about the "Star Alliance" aircraft? Curious where they can be found now. Not rather a special colorscheme, but when an airline operates just one
59 DC10Tim: To have aircraft that are in the full livery of an airline, surely they should be categorized as having 'normal' colours. This question of ownership c
62 TomTurner: Tom - For "Star Alliance"... you mean "Special" as opposed to "Hybrid/Special" - as the two categories are called? Text from Special: "This only incl
63 Jaspike: The text I quoted from Invader/Peter was the first point under this: So "special" in this sense. Tom
64 APFPilot1985: I don't think that really fits the star alliance scheme, as it isn't temporary, nor anywhere near one off.
65 Jaspike: This one fits better in special than in non-standard/hybrid/mix. Re. "isn't temporary": Mostly temporary, not all. It has to be in one of the categor
66 Dendrobatid: A lot of use have crticised the new categories but no-one has yet put forward a solution. Can I be the first to try? Firstly, there would be no change
67 APFPilot1985: but it is a combination of two paint schemes..... and doesnt really meet any of the other "special" qualifiers?
68 Bubbles: Hi, Could anyone help me on another two category rejections in the following thread? Need Help On Two Category Rejections (by Bubbles Jan 22 2006 in A
69 Norfolkjohn: Regarding Mick's comments in Reply 66 I think I could live with this wording without any major problem. It certainly seems a big improvement on the ol
70 Psych: I think Mick's suggestions are interesting and I know there are many photographers/members who would be keen to know how the ideas are viewed by crew
71 C133: Oh man, I hope not. I have a high enough rejection rate already without hopelessly convoluted hybrid/special rules to navigate. The questions in this
72 Willo: I enjoy going to the airport and photographing planes but do not follow aviation closely enough to know all of the intricacies of ownership and paint
73 Jaspike: The editors and screeners are currently discussing the rules mentioned above, mainly "airliners which fly in the full standard colourscheme of one co
74 N178UA: All the Bangkok Airways/Siem Reap Airlines have special name and dedicated color scheme to the city they serve. I think they should consider as specia
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