Chaity From Malaysia, joined Jul 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5669 times:
Good day to all. This is my first time posting here. Please let me know if I the above issue was discussed in other thread. It would be helpful if someone can point me to that thread.
I am a spotter from Malaysia. I have some photos in A.Net for all to share and enjoy.
Early this year, an airline based here (I do not want to reveal the name) used 2 of my A.net photos in their own website.
I have contact the airline to acknowledge and ask for compensation for using my photos. They have not contacted me but removed those photos from their side. (There is still 1 photo in the side they forgot to remove and I didn't inform them)
Listed below is the summary of the event.
2nd Mac 06 Spoke to Mr L and guided him to the photo. He took down
my name and contact.
3rd Mac 06 Checked their website and found photo was removed. (I
have screen capture and webpage to proof)
7th Mac 06 Contacted their office but couldn't get Mr L. Left my name and contact no. but didn't receive any reply from them.
8th Mac 06 Contacted their office but couldn't get Mr L again. Fax over 2 invoices attention to Mr L for using 2 different photos.
11th Mac 06 Another Photo was removed from website. (I have screen capture and webpage to proof)
13th Mac 06 Managed to contact Mr L via e-mail and promised another person Mr A will contact me.
15th Mac 06 Received this Infringement IP mail from Mr A
UNAUTHORISED USE OF AIRASIA BERHAD INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
We refer to the above matter. It has come to our attention that you have
been offering for sale photographic images and reproductions bearing the
name, logo, trademarks, identifiers, designs and colours belonging to
XXX ("Intellectual Property") without our authorization. The use
of our Intellectual Property constitutes an infringement of our rights which
we view very seriously.
Take notice that you shall cease and desist from using our Intellectual
Property with immediate effect. Thus we demand that you forthwith remove
all images and reproductions of our aircraft or any related images cease
from offering them for sale failing which we shall not hesitate to commence
with legal proceedings against you to all extent as permitted by the law
including for damages, compensation and all costs involved in pursuing our
legal rights against you including our legal costs.
My question to all spotters, do you have any similar experience to share ?
What are the steps I should take ?
Sorry for the long mail, I would be glad if anyone could give me some advice as I am not well verse with copyright and IP.
Javibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5612 times:
I am no expert in this, just a couple of things I can say: In most of the world IF you took the pictures from a public place you can do with them whatever you wish, including selling them for profit and they just can't stop you BUT you'll need to check what are the laws in Malaysia regarding this.
Cheers
j
"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
In most of the world this type of thing is a nonsense. The trademarked logo etc. is incidental to the photograph. Check with a local solicitor, but I would be very surprised if it is any different in Malaysia.
Mikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 59 Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5542 times:
Quoting Javibi (Reply 1): I am no expert in this, just a couple of things I can say: In most of the world IF you took the pictures from a public place you can do with them whatever you wish, including selling them for profit and they just can't stop you BUT you'll need to check what are the laws in Malaysia regarding this.
Actually, it really depends on use. For example, you cannot sell mugs, tshirts and that sort of thing with the airlines name/logo for profit (without licensing from the airline). You can however, use the images for editoral use (and charge for it) without problems. This of course is just an example...
D L X From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 10023 posts, RR: 54 Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5523 times:
First, a disclaimer: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. I AM NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. YOU ARE NOT RECEIVING LEGAL ADVICE. YOU SHOULD DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, AND HIRE A LAWYER.
Don't you just hate lawyers?
Quoting Chaity (Thread starter): There is still 1 photo in the side they forgot to remove and I didn't inform them
You should inform them of this immediately. Failure to tell someone that they are infringing your rights when you are aware that they may be infringing your rights may result in waiver of the right. (Laches.)
As for infringing their IP, ask for a clarification. Ask them to point to specific illegalities, and cite relevant laws. They will need to cite the law of the places the pictures were taken and Swiss Law (because A.Net is hosted in Switzerland, iirc). I doubt either will actually help them however. Their countercomplaint is likely just to prevent you from pushing your complaint. In most places, were you to sue, they would be REQUIRED to bring any and all of their claims against you at the same time.
Generally, your taking and selling a picture of an object with their trademark on it will not infringe their trademark unless consumers would reasonably believe that the picture was being sold by the airline. Since airlines typically are not in the business of selling photographs, and since your name is quite prominent in the photo itself, it is unlikely reasonable to believe that the image on the side of the plane is what they call "source designating", and so a photographer is not going to be liable. (The other big reason is practicality. It is damn near impossible to take a picture in a city or near anything man-made without taking a picture of a trademarked or copyrighted object. They're not going to shut down the genre of photography to protect an extremely minor trademark or copyright interest.)
As for copyright, a photographer will likely find no trouble from the law in taking a picture of a scene that includes copyrighted works (like an airline logo). The only problems where photographers would routinely find trouble would be if he or she made "slavish copies" of images. That would be like going to the L'ouvre, and taking a photo of the Mona Lisa with no borders, and no onlookers.
These cease and desist letters are often like little Pekingese dogs: they bark real loud, but bite real soft. If you have any inkling at all that they will sue you though, you really should talk to a lawyer. Nothing makes lawyers shut up like a letter from another lawyer.
D L X From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 10023 posts, RR: 54 Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5505 times:
Xpfg From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 613 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5497 times:
Quoting EGGD (Reply 5): Airliners.net is hosted in Switzerland? News to me!
Yes, it is.
From the about page:
The web site is situated in the north of Sweden, hosted at Luleå University of Technology. It's running on Slackware Linux machines with Apache and PHP under the skin. The search engine is powered by MySQL and all pages are made using Emacs.
Airliners.net is owned by Lundgren Aerospace International, a private company registered in Sweden.
D L X From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 10023 posts, RR: 54 Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5491 times:
Quoting Xpfg (Reply 8): The web site is situated in the north of Sweden
Ahh. Got the country mixed up. (Got the first two letters right though...)
Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 7): You seriously don't know????
It wouldn't have been that hard to tell me... Although, I was already looking around to find out. My bad.
Tappan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1538 posts, RR: 51 Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5459 times:
if this happened to me with a United States or a European airline or Australian or most of Asia I would tell them to F*&% OFF!
But, since I do not know the Malaysian law......
I do not know what to do...
Rotate From Switzerland, joined Feb 2003, 1466 posts, RR: 21 Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5450 times:
Quoting Xpfg (Reply 8): Quoting EGGD (Reply 5):
Airliners.net is hosted in Switzerland? News to me!
Yes, it is.
From the about page:
The web site is situated in the north of Sweden, hosted at Luleå University of Technology. It's running on Slackware Linux machines with Apache and PHP under the skin. The search engine is powered by MySQL and all pages are made using Emacs.
Sweden is not Switzerland!! Its like Canada being the US ....
Xpfg From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 613 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5363 times:
Quoting Rotate (Reply 12): Sweden is not Switzerland!! Its like Canada being the US ....
LOL! Whoops! Long week guys...hahhahaha...nice chuckle myself there. LOL!
Lennymuir From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2002, 434 posts, RR: 7 Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5316 times:
Hi Chaity
Quoting Chaity (Thread starter): It has come to our attention that you have
been offering for sale photographic images and reproductions bearing the
name, logo, trademarks, identifiers, designs and colours belonging to
XXX ("Intellectual Property") without our authorization
I've had a look at your photographs.
None of them have Buy a print! link on them. (Offering images for sale)
So where is the proof you are trying to sell your photographs with their image?
Is it because you have asked for compensation for a theft?
Chaity From Malaysia, joined Jul 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5264 times:
Thank you for all your suggestive responses.
It is my bad for letting that "Name" apperaing from my 1st post. Hack! I might get another threaten e-mail from them if they knew about it. Anyway to edit out the Name ? Can't see any edit button. 8-(
BTW, the law in Malaysia is about the same in other part of the world. It would be more closely to the British law since Malaysia gained indepandance in 1957.
I did responded to their infringement e-mail and got another uglier reply.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17877 posts, RR: 59 Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5208 times:
Quoting Chaity (Reply 15): Anyway to edit out the Name ? Can't see any edit button.
You can only edit your messages for 30 minutes after you posted them. After that they're stuck as is.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Paparadzi From Malaysia, joined Jan 2005, 196 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5186 times:
Quoting Chaity (Reply 15): It is my bad for letting that "Name" apperaing from my 1st post. Hack! I might get another threaten e-mail from them if they knew about it. Anyway to edit out the Name ?
Don't worry. Let the world know about them. Yours is not the only photographs taken from this site.
Here we are, spending thousands of dollars and ringgits for our hobby, and giving them free advertising to the world. And they steal the photo...
Rules are made for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.
Chaity From Malaysia, joined Jul 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5027 times:
Thanks Mir for the confirmation.
Here's my reply to them on 16th Mac 06.
----------------
Dear Mr. A, thanks for pointing out the IP issues.
For your information, all my XX photos in Airliners.net are not for sale.
They are for aviation enthusiasts around the world to appreciate and enjoy.
I can comply to your demand of "remove all images and reproductions of your aircraft" from the above website.
It will be fair if you demand all XX photos to be taken out by all the photographers in the same website.
If I am the only person singled out to do so, wouldn't you think this is discrimination or practising double standard ?
I would remove them until my main issue with XX is resolved.
Coming back to the main issue, XX is using my photos without my conscent, it is consider an infringement and voilated the copyright law.
The photos were taken in public area. No doubt you have "name, logo, trademarks, identifiers, designs and colours belonging to XX", they
were used by XX itself. By using my photos on your website, indirectly you are engaging my hard earned efforts and services.
By removing those photos from your website after my complaint, I don't see XX have any sense of guilt or remorse. I am demanding my rights and
efforts to be recognised.
Please prepare the above payment by 20th Mac 06 in favour of my name as in the invoice, 7 days after my e-mail to Mr L.
You are welcome to contact me for any further clarification.
Chaity From Malaysia, joined Jul 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5025 times:
Their reply on the same day.
It will be fair if you demand all XX photos to be taken out by all the photographers in the same website. If I am the only person singled out to do so, wouldn't you think this is discrimination or practising double standard ?
The issue here is whether we have the rights to XX photos (answer: Yes). As owners we have the discretion to pursue or not pursue any course of action. This is basic principle of ownership. We have therefore requested you to immediately cease from using our rights without our authority or consent. Singling anyone out is not the issue here.
I would remove them until my main issue with XX is resolved.
I do not understand this sentence of yours. To be clear, remove them immediately or we will not hesitate from taking legal action against you.
Coming back to the main issue, XX is using my photos without my conscent, it is consider an infringement and voilated the copyright law.
We have it on good authority that the only infringement and violation of proprietary rights in this instance is by you.
The photos were taken in public area. No doubt you have "name, logo, trademarks, identifiers, designs and colours belonging to XX", they were used by XX itself.
XX registers for protection all the elements representing its identity around the world. Your action constitutes an infringement regardless of where the photos were taken. Their reproduction is an infringement.
Please prepare the above payment by 20th Mac 06 in favour of my name as in the invoice, 7 days after my e-mail to Mr L.
We will not be paying you I am afraid.
You are welcome to contact me for any further clarification
If you have not removed the photos, or if you in the future were to publish or post XX’s images without our consent, you will certainly be contacted by our solicitors.
Chaity From Malaysia, joined Jul 2005, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5018 times:
BTW, I am in the midst to remove all my photos related to XX in A.Net. I don't see any point having them here for some irresponsible XX staff to steal and claim as their own photo.
It is really injustice for A.Net and fellow photographers having XXs photos here. They don't appreaciate our efforts and the FREE advertisement provided here. No point for me to have their aircraft photos taken in the future.
Can anyone here have the e-mail address from the datebase editor here ? I can't find it either in FAQ or other places.
Thank you in advance for reading and sharing your views.
Catball From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4989 times:
This is total B.S. unless the laws of Malaysia are totally different than the rest of the world.
(editorial=on)
"We have used your photographs; as they are pictures of our planes, you should have no problem with this and if you do, we will send our legal eagles after you !! Thank you for providing us with promotional images to use as we see fit. Please feel free to use our airline and pay twice the going rate for the privilege."
Sincerely,
Mr. A, B, C and D.
(editorial=off)
This is nothing more than some IT guy trying to pull something. I would not bow down easily. Cover your butt, for sure, with your countries legal ways, but this smells like some guy trying to flex a muscle he doesn't have.
Stand your ground . Best of luck and do not pull your pictures from A.Net unless you feel you have no choice.
Quoting Catball (Reply 21): This is nothing more than some IT guy trying to pull something. I would not bow down easily. Cover your butt, for sure, with your countries legal ways, but this smells like some guy trying to flex a muscle he doesn't have.
Stand your ground . Best of luck and do not pull your pictures from A.Net unless you feel you have no choice.
Scott
Hi Scott, thanks for your support on this case.
I share the same feeling with you too of some guy now in their legal dept flexing their muscle.
Sorry to say I am all prepared to pull out their photos as I don't see any point doing free advertisement for them.
Let the world know from now on how they run this airline. I would rather drive than flying with them while people like the above is still running the airline.
Beechcraft From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 828 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4945 times:
Quoting Chaity (Reply 19): If you have not removed the photos, or if you in the future were to publish or post XX’s images without our consent, you will certainly be contacted by our solicitors.
What a lot of crap. I say don´t pull them. But that´s just me...
If they really had a problem with photos of their airline being hosted here, they would have contacted Johan or at least the Photographer (you) BEFORE they decided to steal and use your photos.
Now that you found out about it, they´re just trying to cover up what they did by blackmailing you....
Denis
[Edited 2006-03-18 11:59:54]
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
Gary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4935 times:
Quoting Chaity (Reply 19): The issue here is whether we have the rights to XX photos (answer: Yes).
that's the best yet...
twits.
go kick some booty!
25 Tsentsan: Chaity, I saw with all these BS, you might want to get in touch with a lawyer in KL to cover yourself first. With AK you never know what reason they m
26 BrianW999: They're talking crap ! They stole your copyrighted pics without asking permission. Use the above quoted words in your response to them when you claim
27 Tsentsan: Just a further thought, why dont you post it on photomalaysia.com and see what the locals can come up with? I'm sure they're more well-versed in the M
28 OlegShv: Gosh... That would have been insane in US and Europe.
29 Chaity: Hi Denis, that's a very good thought, thanks. They could have done that before using my photos. To me, this is purely some low and cheap act to bully
30 Chaity: Hi Gary2880, their reply do provide some laugh to all of us. For me, I would choose this.. XX registers for protection all the elements representing
31 Chaity: Hi Tsentsan, I did send them the invoice and screenshots. They refused to give the person in charge in Finance Dept. So I send them to their IT Dept.
32 Chaity: BrianW999, let the people around the world judge them how they fare. OlegShv, that would have been insane in this part of the world too.
33 OlegShv: What about their PR department? Try contacting them if you can find their info.
34 StealthZ: Wonder how many other a.net photographers would find their photos on this gallery site?
35 Gary2880: so let me get this straight, this coocoobananas airline thinks no matter who takes a photo of their aircraft, no matter where it is taken, they own it
36 DC10Tim: What scares me most is their attitude. They seem like a real set of cowboys. I hope they take a more professional approach to their operations and saf
37 Chaity: Already asked for their PR Dept but they said this is their IT Dept issue. Found another A.net photographer with 3 photos there. I have already conta
38 BrianW999: Still, there's one good thing to come out of this Chaity. Your picture view ratings must have gone sky ( pardon the pun !! ) high.
39 Chaity: Ha Ha BrianW999, very funny! Honestly, I don't really bother much about those view ratings. Those photos with the XX airline will be gone by next wee
40 D L X: I don't think that's what they are saying. They are saying that if you take a picture of their intellectual property and put it up on this site, you
41 Paulinbna: There is a airline in this country that has tried this at least to a certain extent. AA, they have a no photography issue but I don't think they would
42 Chaity: I intend to ask them the specific law stating the above in my coming e-mail to them. Thanks. I don't have any lawyer friend specialized in IP laws wh
43 Paparadzi: Not that easy, since they still have 95 A320 to be delivered. Maybe we should put a big bold watermark across the image for any photo of that particu
44 Ryan h: Personally I would let it go unless I heard of others being hassled in a similar way. To me it sounds like one person has decided to have some 'fun' w
45 Chaity: No worries Capt, I can shoot the ever changing weather or the scenary near the airport. 8-) Ryan, I would say good move unless you have plenty of tim
46 Chaity: Just an update on this case. All my photos for this XX airlines were removed in A.Net on my request. I don't see any point providing free ads for them
47 Lufthansi: Hi Chaity! I know a lawyer very very good! I showed him this thread and he agreed with the opinion that you can shot whatever you want and you can pub
48 Chaity: Hi Lufthansi, thanks for the comforting news. Removing their photos is a personnal choice. I don't know about others but surely there won't be any mo
49 Rol: Just one request: Please, could you tell us at last of which airline it is about? I just want to know, which airline I must avoid in the future.
50 StealthZ: ROL Careful reading of the the thread starting post will answer that question
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