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Baffled By Centering Rejection  
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11153 posts, RR: 52
Posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Hello again,

I'm probably being silly, because this shot was rejected, appealed, and rejected upon appeal for centering. Here's the shot:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...r18/DTW_031806_N737JW_DSC_0717.jpg

Of course I'm biased, but I think the centering is fine. Left to right, the body of the plane is nearly centered, biased slightly to the left to allow the new winglet into the shot. Top to bottom, the plane is nearly centered, biased slightly to the bottom to allow the tail to fit without clipping, and to avoid inclusion of more of the distracting tarmac and roadway at the bottom of the frame.

Is this really a centering problem? I'd welcome anyone's thoughts on fixing it.

Thanks!

Damon


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17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Is this really a centering problem? I'd

Yup. It's too high in the frame.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3901 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Hi Damon,

Yes there is a vertical centering problem in my opinion. Why strictly center the fuselage, as if the tailfin is not part of the subject?

This aircraft actually has a tall fin, and in a tail-on picture like this it is very prominent. So when centering you have to take the fin into account.

That doesn't mean that the margin on top on the fin must be equal to the margin below the fuselage/gear. A good vertical crop is somewhere in between these extremes, because the fin is part of your subject but it's less promiment (simply smaller in area) than the fuselage.

Hope that helps,

Peter wave 



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Hi Damon,

This is one of those subjective crops I think. Do you centre the fuselage in the frame, or work from the tip of the tail to the belly? I can't quite put a finger as to why, but the shot looks somehow awkward. Maybe it's because of the angle of the aircraft and one winglet is included, but there is something that just doesn't seem right about it. Sorry I can't be of any more help. Hopefully others can give their opinions.

Regards,

Tim.



Obviously missing something....
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5667 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2220 times:
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Damon,
Have to agree with the others, the plane is too high.
A different crop with more foreground may not work as it may distract,
As Tim said there is something awkward and it may be the left hand wings, they appear "clipped" rather than deliberately cropped out.

I have taken the liberty of playing with you photo (the joys of waiting for the Monday morning conference call!)

http://www.pbase.com/chrisg/image/57780701.jpg

I make no claims that this is a definitive crop and I am not sure that A.net would love it but to me (with the material at hand) it is slightly more pleasing. It likely satisfies the photographic "rule of thirds" more than A.net.

Cheers

Chris



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineWallace From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

That's a good crop Chris. It looks well composed

Now don't confuse the screeners with technical terms like "The rule of thirds" you know they don't accept that as an excuse.  Wink



"..... for beauty is written on the eye of the screener."
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11153 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Doesn't that seem really empty to the right and above the plane when you crop it like that though?

in my days of photography classes, the instructor always insisted that we compose things like animals, or machines that are animal-like (like planes and cars) by centering the shot their bodies, or their eyes (or using the rule of 3rds... so disliked around here). Tails, wings, legs (landing gear), etc. should not be cropped, but should not be the basis of the composition either.

It seems that I've come across another rule that doesn't fly around here. Sad

Fortunately, I suppose, the original was a full-crop, and so I've got plenty of pixels to work with in making it smaller. Unfortunately, i can't make it bigger or move the positioning in any way - I can only crop.



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User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 1):
It's too high in the frame.

I agree.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5667 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
Tails, wings, legs (landing gear), etc. should not be cropped, but should not be the basis of the composition either.

Interesting comment considering you do it fairly often and you also said this on March 15...

Quote:
Curious, what's wrong with cutting off part of the stabilizer? I did that because the plane was highish in the frame, and in order to be within A.net's 2:3 or 3:4 size guidelines and still have the plane centered in the crop, I had to cut part of the plane.

Sometimes you can't get a plane centred and within A.nets aspect ratio guidelines.. so you don't and you don't upload it, easy really.
Now ask me if I think A.net should consider other acceptable aspect ratios.. that is another discussion entirely and happy to take it up anytime!!

BTW with regards your comment about wings etc not being part of the composition, your comments about the photo in question indicate that you did just that. What is so new or significant about the winglet anyway??

Cheers

Chris

[Edited 2006-03-27 08:41:04]


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11153 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

nothing better than getting "called out."  

Obviously, photography is an artform with tradeoffs. I should have said those appendages should not be cropped unnecessarily. My instructor used to say cropping knees is okay, but cropping feet is almost never okay.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 8):
What is so new or significant about the winglet anyway??

This plane just got them. It was delivered to Southwest without them, and the airline had them retrofitted. The other pics of this plane in the database show this. Additionally, I thought their size and color really add to the shot against the cloud-darkened background, so I tried my best to keep the sunlit one in the frame.

Anyways, here's my second attempt. What do you think? I didn't like having the body of the plane shifted all the way to the bottom left, so I left a little breathing space there.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/D_L_X/DTW%20Mar18/DTW_031806_N737JW_DSC_0717_2.jpg

[Edited 2006-03-27 09:03:15]


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User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5667 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2120 times:
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Damon,

I do like your recrop better, IMHO something between your crop and mine may be the go, get rid of the light along the bottom edge. You're the photog so your call!!

The winglet in the sun is good but hardly new.. 737JW has been dragging those winglets thru the sky since at least April 2005 as several photos in the db show!

Cheers

C



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineGranite From UK - Scotland, joined May 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 64
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2098 times:
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Hi all

Have to say that the wingletted wing really does nothing for the image. Needs a tighter crop.

Not sure about the 'Mars Attacks' saucer at the bottom either  Smile

Regards

Gary


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 9):
Anyways, here's my second attempt. What do you think?

Still an awkward looking crop. And I admit, my goes right to the "saucer" at the bottom of the frame.


User currently offlineJavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting Granite (Reply 11):
Needs a tighter crop.

I agree, IMHO the saucer AND the taxiway sign are very distracting.

j



"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11153 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

You guys have broken my spirit.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/D_L_X/DTW%20Mar18/DTW_031806_N737JW_DSC_0717_3.jpg

just kidding.



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User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1996 times:
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Hi Damon,

As you have been good enough to open yourself up to this scrutiny, can I ask you a question about this kind of shot:

I would totally agree that the first shot was too high - but I still think the most recent edit is high. Now I see a lot of photos like yours accepted to the database, where the tail of the subject is almost touching the top of the crop and there is some considerable space in the crop below the bottom of the subject. Why does this crop appeal to you - and to all those others as well? For me I would try to balance the space above and below, so with your chosen centring the plane always looks too high for me.

Just looking through my shots to find an example - in my opinion this is correctly centred, and having space in the crop below the wheels would throw the photo out of 'balance':

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Markman


I am very interested to hear why you felt comfortable with the original shot - and also why you don't lower the most recent edit a bit more.

All the best.

Paul


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11153 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 15):
As you have been good enough to open yourself up to this scrutiny

I'm not going to get better if I don't open myself up to scrutiny, so why not?  Smile Can't hurt. (Besides, you'll never know if you make me cry. :P)

I think in comparison to your example, my basic fear is that a tighter crop will be tonally off-balance. This shot has strong bright colors and a dark background. With a tight crop, the bright colors hug the bottom third and the left third of the shot, leaving a big open nothing in the middle and upper-right of the frame. With your shot, at least the word "Lufthansa" is in the center of the frame. On top of that, it appears that in your shot, you are at the same height as the wheels, while I'm shooting from the 8th storey looking down.

Also, keep in mind that the original was uncropped, so I simply can't move the frame down without cropping the plane tighter, or I risk a "digitally manipulated" rejection for making more sky. When I took the shot, I was focusing mainly on keeping that right winglet in the frame, and the fuselage in the center. My latest crop puts the fuselage on the bottom third of the frame.

BTW, are you analyzing me?  Smile



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User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1963 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
BTW, are you analyzing me?

Why - of course  wink .

Thanks for that - you make a lot of interesting points. I have wanted to ask this question, because that type of 'high' crop seems to be popular with many photographers. But, if I were the screener, I would tend to see them as NOA_Centre, unless it is very apparent that such positioning is part of the motive.

I look forward to some clearer indications from the screening team about what is and is not deemed to be correct for centring, because it seems many posters have been unhappy with their rejections over recent times and there may be differences of opinion about what is 'acceptable'.

All the best.

Paul


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