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Selecting Just The Plane In Editing  
User currently offlineCosec59 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Excuse my ignorance, but I was reading a reply by Psych in another thread when he mentioned " select just the plane in editing".
I use CS2 and would appreciate any help of how to sharpen just the aircraft and not the whole photo. I have tried the magic wand but it seems a tad confusing.
On another issue, I have just started to use RAW and find some pics are grainy when I have edited them. I guess thats a mistake I'm making and would appreciate help to overcome that one too please.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

The Magic Wand works well if the aircraft is against a uniform background (such as a blue sky). Click on the sky and then right-click and Select Inverse.

For aircraft against a non-uniform background (clouds, or aircraft on the ground) try the Magnetic Lasso. Draw around the aircraft, click "Select", then "Modify", then "Expand" by 1 pixel.

Others may disagree, but I feel that the incremental improvement of RAW over JPG is not worth the effort.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3490 times:
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Hi Phil.

I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

As regards that comment about selection, I was suggesting using the Magic Wand tool, as Viv mentions above. But that can be tricky, depending on the type of pixels that make up the plane and the background.

If you are keen to only sharpen the plane itself then I would now suggest the Layer mask strategy, outlined by Jeff here, in Reply 3. I have not used this technique myself, but I think Jeff knows what he is talking about with this. I think that might suit your needs well and avoids the potential irritation of using the Magic Wand and selecting bits you don't want, or not selecting enough.

All the best.

Paul


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3460 times:

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
The Magic Wand works well if the aircraft is against a uniform background (such as a blue sky). Click on the sky and then right-click and Select Inverse.

 checkmark 

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

I like Fergul's settings a little better. 50% 0.3 and 0, you geta more gradual sharpening and you can avoid the jaggies.


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
outlined by Jeff here, in Reply 3.

Yup! Ultimate control, using the wand is not very accurate and leaves artifacts on too many edges, it's not well suited for this type of editing and isn't reversable. I seldom use USM sharpening any more.

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky???


User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3412 times:
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Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky

No good reason Jeff, other than these settings are not detrimental and this is the way I have learned to do things.

Now that is not an argument that your Layer mask method is not superior  wink .

Just one thing - you say you do not use USM any more. I think I understand the principle of the mask as you explained it in the thread linked above. But what are you 'painting' on, if it is not USM? Sorry for sounding a bit unsure here, but masks is not a method I have been familiar using so far.

Cheers.

Paul


User currently offlineMongorat From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 165 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky???

Greetings all...Jeff I sharpen like Paul does as well; plane, sky,everything. I have tried just sharpening the aircraft but can't say I see any noticeable difference in the two methods; perhaps it's my eyes.

And Jeff, thanks for your reply to my e-mail...still can't seem to use your "Mask Technique" for sharpening with my Photoshop 3.0 version.

Matt L


User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Ultimate control

I will try this tonight. It sounds great, but I suspect there may be some trial and error and a learning curve involved.

Anyway, thanks to Jeff for the information. Sharpening is the only aspect of processing that I find troublesome.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Do a google search for High Pass Sharpening. I've been using this method more and more these days as it does not (at least in my experience) introduce any additional noise and you don't have to worry about masking-out the sky. It's a little more work than USM but worth it IMO.

Mike


User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

Second "ignorant" question of the thread  Smile

Having tried to get to the layer masks in the way JeffM describes, and, having read and re-read the help menus in PS, would I be right in thinking that these tools are not available in Elements 2?

If they are there, would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction?


User currently offlineMongorat From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 165 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Second "ignorant" question of the thread

No such thing!

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Having tried to get to the layer masks in the way JeffM describes, and, having read and re-read the help menus in PS, would I be right in thinking that these tools are not available in Elements 2?

Andrew...my stumbling point as well. I use Photoshop 3.0 and I can't seem to get Jeff's technique to work either; I have been playing around with this for a couple weeks now but can't seem to figure it out.  banghead 

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
If they are there, would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction?

I second that.. thumbsup 

Matt L


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
Just one thing - you say you do not use USM any more. I think I understand the principle of the mask as you explained it in the thread linked above. But what are you 'painting' on, if it is not USM?

I just click the standard SHARPEN most of the time.

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
masks is not a method I have been familiar using so far.

Once you try it, you will find you use that method for everything....Literally.

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
these tools are not available in Elements 2?

I'm not sure about Elements...

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 8):
search for High Pass Sharpening. I've been using this method more and more these days as it does not (at least in my experience) introduce any additional noise and you don't have to worry about masking-out the sky.

I've used it as well, but always on a mask layer, never on it's own. Something always gets sharpened that I don't want, then your stuck having to erase it. With a mask, I just brush the HPS on ONLY where I want, and ONLY at the intensity I want.


DO NOT confuse a layer mask with "masking" something via lasso, or magnetic lasso. This is completely different.


User currently offlineCosmic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3362 times:

I've just tried all three methods, Just clicking sharpen, Unsharp Mask and High Pass Sharpening and the results from Unsharp Mask look the best to me for this particular Photo, it produced the least grain and noise.

This is the Photo I edited (this one is the USM one).



Though I think that when editing other Photos, the High Pass Sharpening method might work well.

I am yet to try Jeff's method, I am going to though.

EDIT:

I've had a go Jeff, but I am having trouble with this bit:

Quoting JeffM:
Check to make sure the two colors (foreground and background squares) are white and black. Make White the active color, then select a paint brush with a hardness of about 20-30,

Where can I find the squares? If you mean the squares in the Layer box, one of the sqaures is black, the other one just shows the Photo. Also, when I select the paint brush where can I find the hardness setting? I can only see opacity.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for the help.

[Edited 2006-04-18 18:52:28]

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11357 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week ago) and read 3332 times:

Doesn't High Pass Sharpening give you halos out the wazoo?

I've started using an action that does CS2's smart sharpen, but only on and near edges. It's hard to explain all that I do, but if you want to check out the action, you can download it here. All of my recent acceptances have been with this action. Basically, you select roughly the plane, and the action does the rest.

After the action runs, it leaves the background image and a layer with a mask that you can paint on or paint off for the background using JeffM's technique.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

Quoting Cosmic (Reply 12):
I've had a go Jeff, but I am having trouble with this bit:

Quoting JeffM:
Check to make sure the two colors (foreground and background squares) are white and black. Make White the active color, then select a paint brush with a hardness of about 20-30,

Where can I find the squares? If you mean the squares in the Layer box, one of the sqaures is black, the other one just shows the Photo. Also, when I select the paint brush where can I find the hardness setting? I can only see opacity.

What am I doing wrong?

O.k. here are the squares... the red x is in the white, or the "active" color.



If you click on the little black and white squares below them, you will turn them to the default black and white, IF you have other colors there. Clicking on either square will make it active.
The red arrow on top points to the paint brush.



Here is where you find the brush diameter, ...Click on the little down arrown to the right of the word BRUSH.



and hardness...


Here is the Opacity setting...



And finally here is how you hide the layer mask.



Remember, AFTER you hide the layer mask, then you can select your white brush and "paint on" your sharpening, levels, color, high pass, etc. It works for everything!

So in summary...

For what ever correction you want control over it's application..

1. Duplicate the current layer
2. Apply your correction, (levels, shadow removal, satuation, sharpening, USM, etc...) only do ONE at a time.
3. Hide the layer mask.
4. Select the WHITE BOX
5. Select your brush, set diameter, hardness, and opacity
6. Brush over the area you want to apply the correction you did in step 2. (remember..if you have the opacity set low, it will take multiple passes with the brush to build up to the amount of correction you want)
7. If by chance you applied too much correction, switch to the BLACK brush, and brush OFF some of the correction you over-did.
8. Flatten when done
9 Repeat the procedure for a different correction ( let's say you just did shadow removal, now you want to do saturation...)

That's it.


-Jeff


User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3325 times:
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I also use the Smart sharpen in CS, about 70% at 0.3 r at image size 1024 x X. I use the magic wand to deselect the sky and any other areas that I do not want to sharpen. Noise tends to show up in dark areas such as engine intakes so I deselect them too if they are very dark. The magic wand can be used pretty effectively by right clicking to add or subtract areas and the levels can be adjusted for the 'sensitivity' (for want of a better word). One other thing, by equalising just the sky, dust spots positively hit you and these can be removed on a duplicate layer.

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
Others may disagree, but I feel that the incremental improvement of RAW over JPG is not worth the effort.

Viv
I disagree and the noise reduction in RAWshooter in particular is very subtly variable. I use it very little but it can sometimes save a slightly noisy picture. It is far more subtle than, for instance, Neat Image.

Are any two of us doing things the same way ? (LOL)
Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 11):
I've used it as well, but always on a mask layer, never on it's own. Something always gets sharpened that I don't want, then your stuck having to erase it. With a mask, I just brush the HPS on ONLY where I want, and ONLY at the intensity I want.

Jeff, the HP method is done on it's own layer, at least the method I use.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Doesn't High Pass Sharpening give you halos out the wazoo?

Not in my experience.

Mike


User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Heartfelt thanks to Jeff for his detailed guide.

One question: How can I save or print it?



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting Viv (Reply 17):
One question: How can I save or print it?

Viv, just select (highlight) with mouse, copy and paste into Word (or similar) and print it  Smile And yes, great little guide there Jeff.

Mike


User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Thank you, Mike. Will do so right away.


Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 16):
Jeff, the HP method is done on it's own layer, at least the method I use.

Yes, I know. But, it happens on the WHOLE layer. Why not try after running the HP, hiding the layer mask, and then just brushing on your HP sharpening onto only the areas you want in the amount you want. This method works for any correction you want, with the exception of rotating the image.  Wink Or do you prefer doing the whole image?

Quoting Viv (Reply 17):
Heartfelt thanks to Jeff for his detailed guide.

No problem, glad to help. I've been talking about it for so long, finally got around to describing the details.

And don't forget, you don't have to use the brush settings shown, set them any way you like, hard brush, soft brush, size, opacity, etc....


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 20):
Yes, I know. But, it happens on the WHOLE layer. Why not try after running the HP, hiding the layer mask, and then just brushing on your HP sharpening onto only the areas you want in the amount you want. This method works for any correction you want, with the exception of rotating the image. Or do you prefer doing the whole image?

Only the edges (of objects in the photo, not the photo itself) are sharpened when I use the HPS method. Any large parts like sky and/or aircraft fuselages are not affected. It's just as easy to erase (on the HP layer) any small parts that seem to be jaggy, which is usually only 1 or 2 small parts, if at all. Your method is great but to me (for my purposes) I don't find myself needing to have that much control over areas to apply and/or not apply sharpening on every image. It would take longer IMO to paint areas that I want to apply the shaperning layer vs. just erasing the very few small parts that are jaggy.

The whole image HPS layer method works for me and is just fine for Anet uploads. However, when working on a nice high-quality print that I want perfect I will certainly give your method a try!

Mike


User currently offlineCosmic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Jeff, I would also like to say thank you for explaining this technique with pictures and a summary. I look forward to trying it out, it sounds very useful. I am sure you've help solve any problems I was having carrying out the method.

Thanks again  Smile


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