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Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...  
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

Here is something to think about in light of the current crisis on bad manipulation....

I read here all the time people offering to "have a go" at someone else's images for what ever reason. I have even read in a photo's comments the photographer thanking someone else for processing the image. Obviously someone has manipulated (processed) someone else's image to the point of acceptance. Maybe they think they are God's gift to Photoshop or something, who knows..I think it is rediculous my self, but that is just my opinion.

So, the image is sent, the "Expert" gets the image from the poor slob that can't process it himself, and clones something out thinking he is doing such a wonderful job. Maybe something significant, maybe not, and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.

Then, lo and behold.....someone finds out and starts a thread like the current "Top of the day, Manipulated image thread". Some form of investigation goes on and it is determined the image has been wrongfully altered........ Uh oh......

Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):

Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

The photographer. When they are submitting their photo, they are taking responsibility for it and everything it contains. If said photog wants the processor of the photo held responsible, they should have that person's name put on the copyright bar alongside theirs. That is the risk you take letting someone else edit your photo.

I never let anyone touch my photos except for yours truly, and I would not have it any other way. No learning is done letting someone else edit your photos for you.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

I also do all of my own post-processing, sometimes others as well but only if I'm showing them exactly what I'm doing.

btw Jeff that Velvia Mask you have is sweet  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineINNflight From Austria, joined Apr 2004, 3765 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
No learning is done letting someone else edit your photos for you.

Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.

Regarding the cloning issue, imo the 'fixer' takes the responsibility. If he's good, the unexperienced uploader won't spot it, therefore just uploads it thinking it's ok. The photoshop-God should know better.



Jet Visuals
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):
Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.

There's a difference, though, between being told what is being done to your photo, and hands on performing of the editing.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):

Regarding the cloning issue, imo the 'fixer' takes the responsibility. If he's good, the unexperienced uploader won't spot it, therefore just uploads it thinking it's ok. The photoshop-God should know better.

Ignorance is no excuse, and people starting pointing fingers saying, "my friend edited it, it's not my fault," is only going to cause more problems. Putting your name on the photo and submitting it is saying it is your photo and you are responsible for what comes of it.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineINNflight From Austria, joined Apr 2004, 3765 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
There's a difference, though, between being told what is being done to your photo, and hands on performing of the editing.

There's a learning experience by being told what is done to your photo, as long as you are not able to do it yourself because of lacking knowledge.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
Ignorance is no excuse, and people starting pointing fingers saying, "my friend edited it, it's not my fault,"

We're not talking about ignorant dumbasses. It's about photographers who are too unexperienced to post-process photographs suiting Airliners.net's guidelines.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
is only going to cause more problems.

Airliners should feel lucky that you care that much about not getting the site 'problems by others' lately.  angel 

F.



Jet Visuals
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3043 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3159 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Some interesting comments above.

I am one of these people who offer to help out others through editing their shots. Believe it or not I do this because I find it very reinforcing to think that I can help out - others did it for me when I didn't know much about editing; I now am able to produce a decent edit (though am by no means a Photoshop God), so I am happy to help anyone who is struggling and brave enough to ask for help.

I think it can be hugely instructive to have someone else do an edit of your shot - you can then see what they come up with and hopefully get a full description of what they actually did to produce that result. Even better, you can follow the editing instructions and see if what you then produce looks exactly the same - if not, then that raises interesting questions about technique in itself. It is a perfect recipe for learning and development. You could remain in a silo and work it all out for yourself, if that's your style, or recognise some people know something you don't, and ask. Jeff's competence in the use of Layer Masks is a perfect example of this instructive process. Sometimes being told how to do something is enough - at others, being shown the result is more valuable as an integral part of that learning process.

When I edit someone else's shot I am 'holding their baby'. They have entrusted me with something that belongs to them. They have a right to know what I have done with it - preferably in detail. So if I clone something out/in and don't tell them then that is my responsibility. In the end what the owner does with the photograph is their responsibility, but if I have been complicit in some 'dodgy' manoeuvre and not told them I can hardly walk away innocently. Particularly if they are inexperienced they may not even realise.

Cheers.

Paul


User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

When you put your name to a shot on A.net, that should mean you are 100% responsible for it, including the processing. Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

Learn about processing by practicing on non-Anet shots, with the help of other photographers, books, online tutorials, classes, whatever.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offline9VSPO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

I don't even know how to use the clone tool!  Silly

User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable or get any satisfaction out of having my name against a picture, knowing that someone else had done some of the work.

User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5611 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3137 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think Paul said pretty much all I was going to say though as usual he did so much more eloquently.

Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach, I don't know of anyone that "outsources" their editing to others, most instances I see are one-offs and the photographer likely learns something and handle it better themselves next time.

The couple of times I have helped some one out, I have described what I did to them and they have had more success of their own later.

Cloning something out of anothers photo without their consent, is unforgiveable, not knowing the content of your own work so as to not notice is just as bad.

cheers

Chris



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineEadster From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2216 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):
Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.



Quoting Psych (Reply 6):
I think it can be hugely instructive to have someone else do an edit of your shot - you can then see what they come up with and hopefully get a full description of what they actually did to produce that result

Exactly - How I learn't from both of you as was the best help I'd had.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11030 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

Man, and we're still drinking the Haterade.

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed

Why not? You wouldn't allow a father son duo where the old man has photography skills out the wazoo, but doesn't know how to turn on a computer, let alone use CS2, to get his son the computer wiz to turn his photos into JPEGs? Viv, I normally agree with everything you say, but this sounds off. I mean, it's the digital era equivalent of taking your film to your basement darkroom vs. going to a photolab and having them make the prints. You wouldn't say that all film photographers should develop their own film, would you?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
wouldn't say that all film photographers should develop their own film, would you?

Good point. I was more thinking of the newbie who knows or cares little about exposure - trusting in his expert friend to magically put everything right in Photoshop.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

So what if I wanted help. I'll take responsibility of my shots. If I want help on them i'll do that. If it means getting someone else to have a go at it for me then i'll do that. I hope Paul wont mind me saying he has helped me alot on photos. I have one in the db that he edited for me. I did the first attempt that was rejected and Paul reworked it for me.

Personally I think this is petty that people are now moaning about this. Getting someone to edit your shots is different from breaking rules like cloning

Regards
Colin  Smile


User currently offlineFlyingzacko From Germany, joined May 2005, 583 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 6):
Some interesting comments above.

Interesting indeed, puzzling too though on some level.

I am one of those "poor slobs", who at some point did not know, how to edit a shot in a manner, that it would later on be accepted here. I only have 37 shots online, but I still wanted to add to this here. I don't see what's wrong with people helping others out with their photo editing, and neither do I understand what's ridiculous about thanking them afterwards, be it via Email or the Comment of your photo on a.net. I've had Psych have a go at a couple of my photos, when I didn't know how to edit them, and whenever he edited them, he would later on send them back to me, attached to an Email, telling me the exact steps he took, so I could almost 100% reproduce the results he got. And that's how it is instructive, because when I come across the same problems again with a photo, I'll be able to use what he told me.

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
So, the image is sent, the "Expert" gets the image from the poor slob that can't process it himself, and clones something out thinking he is doing such a wonderful job. Maybe something significant, maybe not, and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.

If I take a photo and send it to someone else to edit it, and he would, for whatever reason clone something out, besides dustspots, how in the world would I not notice?

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

And why exactly do you think that should be?
What's wrong about working together. It's not like there is people out there, who have others edit all there shots. It's usually just every now and then that they will have to consult another photographer to advice them, or help out with their editing skills.

Cheers,
Sebastian



Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineDLKAPA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 8):
I don't even know how to use the clone tool!

By any chance do you see alot of "NOA_Dirty" rejections?  Wink


User currently offlineDC10Tim From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1406 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

In response to quite a bizarre question if I may say so Jeff... does it matter?

Even if a shot is rejected that has been edited by someone offering to lend a hand, the new uploader has gained an insight as to what editing techniques are required and hopefully put on the right path. People who never have rejections are few and far between so it's bound to happen from time to time when helping someone out.

If the experienced members of this forum were not to be so willing to help out newcomers, then we would effectively have a magic circle that is impenetrable.

The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Regards,

Tim.



Obviously missing something....
User currently offlineBrianW999 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 312 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Personally, and BECAUSE I'm new to digital photography, I edit all my own work and cannot think of a situation where I would let someone else process my pics and then upload it as mine. The only proviso to this would be where I needed help and someone else taught me by way of processing a pic for me, and explaining what and why something was done. I would not, however consider uploading such a pic BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ALL MY WORK !

That's my personal opinion but if someone does want another to process their work there is a simple solution. Include a rule on Anet where you must credit the processor for their work in the comments section of the upload. That way everyone knows that someone else helped, the person who helped gets the credit and, most importantly to me, the uploader who took the original pic is being up front about outside help.
One proviso here though. The original photographer must understand that they, as the uploader take full responsibility for any backlash that may occur.

This is considered simple good manners in my other field of aviation interest, i.e. aircraft design (particularly helicopters) for MS flight sim 9. If I use someone elses' work then that is credited in the readme file that accompanies the download. This extends to all aspects such as graphics, flight model, part design etc.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
Maybe they think they are God's gift to Photoshop or something, who knows..I think it is rediculous my self, but that is just my opinion.

Maybe they are just good with PS and are trying to help out a new photog?

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
poor slob that can't process it himself

Love the way you generalize Jeff.  sarcastic 

Quoting Flyingzacko (Reply 15):
I am one of those "poor slobs", who at some point did not know, how to edit a shot in a manner, that it would later on be accepted here

Don't take it personally, Jeff just needs to characterize people in this manner to feed his ego. We were all there once, I used to have one of the top photogs here edit my first few shots till I learned PS.

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

Ultimately it's the person uploading who is responsible, ignorant or not. You can't claim the famous George Constanza ignorance (When he had sex with the cleaning lady at work) when you upload. You are responsible.


User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3037 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 10):
Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach, I don't know of anyone that "outsources" their editing to others, most instances I see are one-offs and the photographer likely learns something and handle it better themselves next time.

Spot on Chris

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 17):
The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Couldn't have said it better myself Tim.
I have had Paul and Chris help me out in the past and would openly say i would still be wondering how to use PS if it wasn't for Chris and Paul.
So its not like hey edit all my shots for me it is at times tricky situations where you need that extra bit of experience .
I don't see too much wrong with people helping out at times
THX guys



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable or get any satisfaction out of having my name against a picture, knowing that someone else had done some of the work.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 10):
Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach,

I neither said I approve or disapprove of someone else editing a picture, it's just not something I do. However, if people feel it helps them, fine! I guess if I'd sought outside help I may have a few more in the database than I have at present. That said, I still prefer a picture to be the "scene" as I remember it, not someone elses interpretation of what I saw, no matter how well executed. That's just my view though  Smile


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

Quoting INNflight (Reply 5):

There's a learning experience by being told what is done to your photo, as long as you are not able to do it yourself because of lacking knowledge.

If you want to have other people edit your photos for you, that's fine by me, I really don't care. I was just saying that's not how I do things. However, if you do have someone else edit, you are ultimately responsible for the photo, no one else.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11030 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 18):
I would not, however consider uploading such a pic BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ALL MY WORK !

Okay, question: before digital, did you not upload any scans of film that you didn't develop? I never had a darkroom (and likely never will) and would not think twice about uploading a scan of a picture I shot and had someone else develop. It's the same thing... absent cloning.

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 18):
Include a rule on Anet where you must credit the processor for their work in the comments section of the upload.

Seriously, why? The system is fine the way it is. If the person that helped edit the shot wants to be credited, he or she will demand so in consideration for lending his help. However, if I edit someone's shot, I do it for my own practice, and do not need anyone to tell everyone that I did it. It's not my shot, and I don't see why I deserve any public credit.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 20):
The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Add Hongyin and Tim de Groot to that list. (There are probably others, but those two have helped me.)



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
When you put your name to a shot on A.net, that should mean you are 100% responsible for it, including the processing. Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

Assistance processing photos isnt what I consider "Uploading by Committee".


This on the other hand...  

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...0Robert%20Fall&distinct_entry=true

[Edited 2006-05-05 18:56:54]

25 Post contains images INNflight : LoL Harry.... thank you, but I'm definitely capable of handling my photographs in PS. Might not be your style, but if you still need help, drop me a
26 Fiveholer : Jeff, jumping to conclusions here. A good friend of mine has me edit his shots quite a bit. Mostly for jaggies. He can't seem to smooth them out as m
27 Post contains links 747 4-ever : I've explained the situation before.. RE: Daniel & Robert Fall Hit The 1000 Mark! (by 747 4-ever Mar 26 2006 in Aviation Photography)#ID225679 If
28 Maiznblu_757 : Thanks, still dont agree with it, either you pushed the button or did not. Simple really.
29 Post contains images Newark777 : If you ever need help, I can direct you to some people to edit your photos for you, since I know how inexperienced you are. Harry
30 Post contains images ChrisH : Either Daniel or Robert pushed the button, if you want to find out who, drop them a line, simple really.
31 Post contains images Maiznblu_757 : Harry, Grow up.
32 JumboJim747 : This thread is deviating from the intended path that JeffM has intended for it. I might be a bit slow here but i think Jeff was just pointing out the
33 Post contains images JeffM : Exactly. To me It's no different then when you were in school. You may not be great in math, sure you can have someone help you study, but you can't
34 DC10Tim : Is it that clear cut though Jeff? Do people who offer to edit shots on behalf of someone with little experience just edit the shot and say "here, thi
35 Mikephotos : Now you tell me, oh great! Mike
36 Post contains images Newark777 : Chad, Get a sense of humor. Harry
37 NathanT2778 : Let me add my 2 cents, I have not let anyone edit photos for me, I just take constructive critisiscm and put it to work and thats how I got my first p
38 BigSkyBirds : I agree, its good to see more experienced photographers helping others and passing on their knowledge, as well as that benefit you end up making some
39 Nosedive : So I take it you're of the school of thought to kick them both out. Sure thats fine if there's an intent to cheat by both parties, but you're assumin
40 Morvious : I helped a friend out when his PS didn't worked anymore, and I would do it again if someone asks if I could help him(Not that there is a big chance of
41 BrianW999 : Now that's a silly comment to make ! Actually I did have a darkroom. I worked in monochrome and could not afford to invest in colour processing. Colo
42 JeffM : Absolutely not. Did you actually read my first post? That is just the way it is....I've had over 500 downloads of my action sets, and only a small pe
43 Post contains images Morvious : Nope, but without any help, they fail from the start. With photoshop the same. And Jeff, wans't it you that came up with a post lately how to load so
44 BrianW999 : ...and its also wrong if someone is willing to flame another for not knowing how to do something, rather than TEACH them.
45 JeffM : Yes. But I don't fix anyone's photo for them. Can't you see the difference? Then should you really have purchased that kind of car? Nothing at all wr
46 Post contains links Nosedive : I did, and I reposted pretty much the same question because it still isn't answered and was starting to get ignored. Perhaps a better phrasing was in
47 Post contains images Morvious : Last try Jeff.. I see your point with this topic, but that is only valid for people who are to lazy to do their own work. Maybe in your world and surr
48 Frippe : Hello again, I consider myself a beginner at Airliners.net but still want to add two comments: 1. I think this thread is very important in many ways,
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