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How To Avoid Burned Out Windows?  
User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3014 times:

Hi guys,

I was taking some shots today and the problem I keep running into is that if I set my exposure for inside - the sky is burnt out, but if I set it for the outside - the inside ends up being under exposed? Do you use special filters with "a half-sun glasses" effect on them or something that would make it possible to expose for inside but due to the filter still avoid burning out the high lights?

Scandinavian 737-600 OY-KKG on approach to Stockholm/Arlanda 19R

Best regards/Mike

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineInterpaul From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3000 times:

Have you tried fill-flash?

Jan


User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2995 times:

Well no, I figured that it would maybe be too distracting for the pilots?

/Mike


User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2991 times:
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Quoting 7E7Fan (Reply 2):
Well no, I figured that it would maybe be too distracting for the pilots?

It would be yes in a critical part of the flight but if its in cruise I'm sure they wont mind just ask them first .
i think the reason you have this problem is because you are facing the sun and its a Tadd back lit that's why you had issues with exposure
But then again i could be wrong



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2991 times:

Ok thanks JumboJim747, but what do you think - would it be worth a try to add this one to the cue?

/Mike


User currently offlineAndersNilsson From Sweden, joined May 2004, 416 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2981 times:

Some good adiveces: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...raphy/read.main/223864/6/#ID223864

Anders

[Edited 2006-05-12 00:32:08]


Airliner photography is not a crime.
User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2964 times:

Thanks Anders! Unfortunately it didn't get that dark tonight, but oh well - there'll be more chances.

/Mike


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2953 times:

The theory is not that difficult.

- Put your camera in aperture mode and select the desired aperture.
Now point it outside towards the brightest spot, press the shutter halfway and see what measurement you get.
- Switch cam to manual mode and dial in the found exposure together with the aperture same as it was in aperture mode.
Now the outside will be well exposed but inside will be dark which is ok for now.
- Switch on the flash(the on board won't do bcoz you have to point it upwards) and if the found exposure is faster then the fastest sync speed of your camera put it in High Speed mode.(typical camera sync speed is between 1/125 - 1/250s see manual)
Usually I stop the flash down even more(typical between 1 and 2 stops).

- Result will look something like this
http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/middle/ready/F27_PH-FHF_MG_9971.jpg
Not bad for an amateur.

As you see this was taken on finals without any problem.
Just talk to the crew and take a one or more shots during flight for the crew to see if they are bothered with it.
In this case the crew didn't even noticed the flash.

There is nothing more to it really.

Good luck,
Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineInterpaul From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2950 times:

Willem,
is that fur on the panel?  Wink duck  No seriously, your example looks a bit grainy on my screen. Nice shot though.

Cheers
Jan


User currently offlineFutterman From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1301 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2936 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 7):
- Put your camera in aperture mode and select the desired aperture.
Now point it outside towards the brightest spot, press the shutter halfway and see what measurement you get.
- Switch cam to manual mode and dial in the found exposure together with the aperture same as it was in aperture mode.

After dialing in your aperture, you could also ponint the camera outside and hit the FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) button -- on the 20D, it's marked with an asterisk and is the same button used to zoom in on an image during playback. This will lock the exposure as if you're shooting in the outside conditions while allowing you to focus on the inside. Don't forget to bring the flash up.

Now, Willem's sample photo is fantastic, but using the flash near it's max synch speed will knock out the LCDs in the 73NG. And, if you ask me, those are the best part!  Smile

So, if you have a steady hand and are feeling adventurous, try this: Instead of shooting in Aperture-priority mode, go into Shutter-priority and select a speed around 1/5 or 1/6. This is slower than the LCD refresh rate, so even though you're using the flash, they'll still come out clear. Follow the same procedure as above, with the FEL and flash, then hold the camera steady and fire away.

This shot was taken at night, but everything else was as above.

http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/3...irTran737_N166AT_LGAcockpit_BF.jpg

Brian



What the FUTT?
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting Interpaul (Reply 8):
No seriously, your example looks a bit grainy on my screen.

At my flat screen at work it did look a bit grainy indeed Jan but here at home on my calibrated monitor it looks ok.
I think it is caused by the weird color of the overhead panel, it was taken with ISO 400 but that should not cause a problem with a 20D.

Quoting Futterman (Reply 9):
After dialing in your aperture, you could also ponint the camera outside and hit the FEL (Flash Exposure Lock) button

Brian I experimented myself to death with the FEL option but never came to consistent results.
You are right though it is the easiest way but I don't feel confident with it.

Quoting Futterman (Reply 9):
but using the flash near it's max synch speed will knock out the LCDs in the 73NG.

I was not near the sync speed 1/1000s, F7.1, ISO400, Sigma 15/2.8 besides not much LCD's in the old Friendship Big grin

Can't recall the refresh rate(if there is one at all) for the LCD but I will look it up for you.

CRT's are bit more difficult anyway.
Refresh rate is 50Hz but interlaced which means you need 1/25s(or slower) to photograph a complete screen.


Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineEDDL From Germany, joined Dec 2002, 738 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2829 times:

question to the screeners:

Does a.net accept images which have been altered to gain some dynamic range?

E. g. take a RAW file, develop two different versions ... + 1 EV and - 2 EV ... and merge them in Photoshop (doing this the right way of course!).

I am wondering if this is allowed on here ...

Thanks,
Phil / EDDL


User currently offlinePepef From Finland, joined Oct 2002, 440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

There's no way to take a perfect photo in full daylight. If you meter the exposure readings from outside the cockpit, you'll overexpose the pilot's shirts with the flash.

There's more information in the light areas of the photo than in the dark areas, so let the view outside the cockpit get slightly overexposed, this will make the dark areas inside the cockpit slightly lighter/more visible. You can get some of the overexposed areas back in Photoshop.

You'll get best results in the early morning or early evening, when the difference between the amount of light inside and outside the cockpit is minimal.

If you need to use flash, bounce it off the ceiling. Use a diffuser if you own one. The pilots don't usually mind the flash if it is not dark outside.

The differences of the lighting conditions in and outside the cockpit make taking photos difficult and challenging, but also (in some cases) rewarding.

-Pepef-


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting Pepef (Reply 12):
There's no way to take a perfect photo in full daylight.

I can agree with you here Peter, it won't be perfect but still good enough.

Quoting Pepef (Reply 12):
If you meter the exposure readings from outside the cockpit, you'll overexpose the pilot's shirts with the flash.

Don't agree with the rest though Big grin
Pilot's shirts are no problem(as you can see in my example) with the explained procedure.
Flash is pointed upwards, of course the diffuser on top and it is stopped down even more by means of the flash exp. comp.
On other occasion I use a flash cord which also works great, in some situations probably even better because you can point the flash downwards and contain the light in a relative small area.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders



Quoting Pepef (Reply 12):
so let the view outside the cockpit get slightly overexposed, this will make the dark areas inside the cockpit slightly lighter/more visible. You can get some of the overexposed areas back in Photoshop.

Objection Big grin
At least I never managed to retrieve any detail from even a slightly over exposed area, might be my lack of editing skills of course.
Still I think that for most people it is a lot easier to retrieve some detail from slightly under exposed area's.

What ever you do by what ever method you prefer it is going to take some time and errors to get it right.

Enjoy,
Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offline7E7Fan From Sweden, joined May 2004, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2722 times:

What can I say? Aviopic, Futterman and Pepef thank you so much for all your advice! I guess this why one keep at it, through the frustration of it all, trying to get your first one right... all of you guys who take the time to really explain what I should try to learn and improve! You guys and everyone else on here rocks!

Thanks/Mike

P.S. My next jumpseat flight is on the 22nd, I'll see if I get a chance to try this then?


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