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A Plea For An Improved Appeals Process  
User currently offlineEdoca From Belgium, joined Mar 2005, 688 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Dear all,

I've never been a firm believer in the appeals option. In dozens of appeals (most of them -I admit- foolish appeals), I only "won" once. I was actually impressed at that point to experience that it does work sometimes. Meanwhile, having reached almost 100 pics in the database, I think I have some experience with the screening and appealing processes. I brought my acceptance ratio from 40 to almost 70% in the last few months. (Now of course due to the experiences described below, it's down again... but I digress). I wouldn't say I use the appeal button without careful consideration nowadays. I also know the appeals function is not a second chance for screening - it is mainly there to correct errors.

Despite this, 3 recent experiences have made me quite disappointed with this service.

1 - I uploaded an (IMHO) good-quality cabin view showing a business-class seat. No similar shots are in the DB of the aircraft type/airliner concerned. It was rejected for motive (nothing else). The seat was shown as a whole, no parts missing. Not understanding this rejection, I appealed. It was rejected on appeal, no personal message, no answer to my plea that such images are very common and none existed for that particular a/c type. I only got "not added to the database".

2 - I uploaded a shot that was rejected for "dirty", with a personal message indicating the spot. I replied to the email, pointing out that in my view, it wasn't a dust spot but those plastic backward-pointing tubes you can see at the wingtips of many aircraft. It was very well possible to mistake these for a small dust spot area. No answer came on this reply, so a few days later, I appealed. It was rejected on appeal with the added dreadful "quality" reason, again no personal message, no answer to my initial question, nothing. I replied to this again (I believe about 3 or 4 days ago), but haven't received an answer yet. I do realise not everything can be answered but it was a polite email.

3 - A third case was the picture I posted in another thread, a "distance" rejection. Although this is a rejection I now don't disagree with any longer, once again, the appeal decision did not give any answer to the arguments I had used; it just repeated the original decision, ignoring any specific argumentation I brought up.

Summarising: appealing is useless to learn something. When you do think there may have been a mistake in the screening decision, don't appeal to learn something, as you won't get anything else than a new NO. Apart of course from the rare case where you actually do "win". Consequence: post it in the forum, with the risk of being part of a flood of similar threads. We are then sometimes told to mail the screeners, but to be honest, I think it would be unfair to expect answers from them - I can only imagine the flood of mails they get...

I would like to know if it is really physically impossible to answer appeals with a brief message, especially if the appeal had real arguments. Like I said, I am at a point where I upload only some shots. The ones that are rejected often remain on my hard disk, I don't bother reworking "standard" shots any more. So this plea is not motivated by a rush to upload as much as possible as quickly as possible. I just want to learn. Unfortunately, I think I'll have to keep posting threads to the forum (with the risk of being called a whiner) rather than using the appeals button. Screening takes time, often many minutes per photo. Surely a few words won't have an impact on the screening time. And it will reduce the number of threads and the number of emails to the screeners.

Hope this makes sense and is somewhat useful...


EDIT - typos corrected

[Edited 2006-05-20 11:22:35]

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2735 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
I would like to know if it is really physically impossible to answer appeals with a brief message, especially if the appeal had real arguments.

We try to do so as much as possible. However

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
most of them -I admit- foolish appeals

And that's just you. You really won't believe some of the shots that get appealed. Some people seem to use it just because it's there. We simply don't have the time to accompany each appeal with a personal comment, we are swamped enough as it is. We also have to write comments to the screeners on succesful appeals, because the appeal system is also a learning tool.

The appeal function is not there to ask questions. Use the forum or email the screener if you have questions on how to improve.

Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, it's probably not the answer you were looking for. But think twice next time before appealing.

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days ago) and read 2710 times:

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
I also know the appeals function is not a second chance for screening - it is mainly there to correct errors.

I disagree. When you appeal a photo, you don't 'fix' any errors. You are simply asking for the head screener/Johan to reconsider the rejction based on some additional information you provide which may sway them to accept the image.

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
I uploaded an (IMHO) good-quality



Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
pointing out that in my view,



Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
ignoring any specific argumentation I brought up.



Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
having reached almost 100 pics in the database, I think I have some experience with the screening and appealing processes.

After reading this post, I would say the opposite. 100 photos is not that big of a deal, it seems from what I quoted above that you believe your opinion should trump the screener's just because you took the time to write them?

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
appealing is useless to learn something.

Where does it say you should learn something from an appeal? A rejected appeal is nothing more then the appeal screeners verifying the original rejection reason, though I'd say you should be able to learn from that....

Quoting Edoca (Thread starter):
I just want to learn.

Join a photography club, learn to shoot stuff other then planes. The concept and priciples carry over..


User currently offlineEdoca From Belgium, joined Mar 2005, 688 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Well it seems I'm the only one with my silly idea. Thanks anyway Tim - if the forum is the medium to communicate, so be it. And I do hope my mails will be answered, with regards to one of the "cases" I mentioned above.

I still think though, that there could and should be time for a few words from time to time in an appeal decision - it could lower the number of posts in the forum and the number of emails to the screeners.

That was really all I wanted to say - next time I'll make it as short as that. That way, I probably could have avoided a Jeff reply as well. OF COURSE, JEFF, my opinion should trump the screener's just because I express an opinion.  Yeah sure Glad you found that hidden message in my post. Oh, and gee I didn't even know photography has a concept and principles. But hold on, as I happen to move for my work constantly, I can't even join a photo club, help what should I do now??  box  Did you hope to hurt my feelings? Well, you didn't! Anyway, just to let you know, I had a great day out today, shooting loads of crappy nature photos  Cool

Thanks again for the replies - take care!


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Edoca (Reply 3):
But hold on, as I happen to move for my work constantly, I can't even join a photo club, help what should I do now??

How about any of the online photography sites? Has that thought ever crossed your mind? So many people go out, buy a camera and call themselves a photographer, go to the airport, shoot a plane, upload it, it gets rejected, then scream bloody murder that the screener's didn't tell them what they did wrong. Well, to me, what they are doing wrong, is jumping into the deep end without really knowing how to swim. There a many websites that can help you learn about photography the right way. This is not the place.

Ward, the risk you take when posting rants like your's, is that someone will most likely disagree and tell you what they think. No surprise that I did.

Quoting Edoca (Reply 3):
Did you hope to hurt my feelings?

Childish, and un-called for. Because I choose not to blow smoke up your backside over your ramblings, doesn't mean I was trying to hurt your feelings....it's called disagreement. Look it up.

Quoting Edoca (Reply 3):
Well it seems I'm the only one with my silly idea.

Looks that way from the overwhelming responses....  rotfl 


User currently offlineWakeTurbulence From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
There a many websites that can help you learn about photography the right way. This is not the place.

I disagree with this quote 100%. When I started shooting aircraft about 1 year ago I knew shit about photography. Nowadays I am comfortable in different situations knowing that I can manipulate camera settings to get the best shot possible in the given conditions. I am not a photography god, but I am way better than I was when I started. I didn't join any club, I just read a lot in the forums and went out to practice. Just because this site doesn't teach you specifically what is wrong with photos through rejection it doesn't mean nothing can be learned.

As far as the appeals process, it doesn't really bother me. I have gotten a few overturned and some re-rejected.
-Matt



Jetwash Images - Feel the Heat!!!
User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 5):
I disagree with this quote 100%.

LOL Matt, I'm not saying you can't learn something, it's just that what you learn here is not always the "right way". Knowing when and why to deviate from basic principles is just as important to know as the basics themself. Many bad habits being shared here. A lot of the crap you hear on here about photography is just that.... Crap. Getting a photo in the DB here means you've met the criteria for Airliners.net, nothing else. What you learned in a year here would most likely have been learned in two or three months when discussing photography basics in a more structured environment, and applying that knowledge in degrees, building on fundamentals and then moving on in a logical progression.

Here, it's more like, shoot, adjust in PS, get rejections, ask what you did wrong, ask how to fix it....


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2572 times:

There is so much more to photography than shooting airplanes. People spend hours shooting aircraft coming in on approach, get used to it, and think they are master photographers.

I am glad I had began photography years before I ever took a picture of an aircraft. As JeffM said, learn to take pictures properly, then try to upload. Not the other way around.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2789 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 5):

Same with me. All I knew about photography was to click the shutter. Now I know way more than I did about photography when I first started. I didn't even know how to center the plane when I started. But now I am gettiing better and better because of this site. It has helped me learn so much more about it. I am getting a lot closer to an acceptance because of all I have learned here from rejections and advice from other photographers.

-Matt  Smile



No info
User currently offlineB777-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
Join a photography club, learn to shoot stuff other then planes. The concept and priciples carry over..

No they don't. At least not at this site. This sites standards fly in the face of real photography.

For instance, I've had more than one a.net photographer say that my photos of human models are 'soft' because of this site drilling it into their heads that everything needs to be tack sharp. This site has no tolerance for artistic merit. After all, this is a 'database' so they say.

You can't shoot for this site and expect to be taken seriously anywhere else with out completely changing your style.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 9):

Yes, but proper photography is more than sharpening skills. Learning how to properly frame a subject, how to properly expose a photo, especially in poor light conditions, etc, are the building blocks of learning to take good pictures. These skills are fundamental and necessary, but it seems more and more that people seeking help here try to take photos first and learn these basics later.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineB777-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 10):
Yes, but proper photography is more than sharpening skills. Learning how to properly frame a subject, how to properly expose a photo, especially in poor light conditions, etc, are the building blocks of learning to take good pictures. These skills are fundamental and necessary, but it seems more and more that people seeking help here try to take photos first and learn these basics later.

We essentially agree, but a photo doesn't always have to be framed the same way, (the rule of thirds that this site laughs at) sometimes over exposure can work for the overall photo. This site is too restrictive to recognize that. It might have something to do with the person who imposes his rules not being a photographer, I don't know. But this is not the place to learn photography, with that I agree. You have to learn photography first, then upload here and learn to conform to this sites ideals.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
the rule of thirds that this site laughs at

True. Try to pass a nicely composed photo here and it gets badcenter or something like that.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
But this is not the place to learn photography, with that I agree. You have to learn photography first, then upload here and learn to conform to this sites ideals.

 checkmark 

What I have learned here are things like PS techniques, or ways to improve panning.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineEdoca From Belgium, joined Mar 2005, 688 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Interesting debate developing...

One more thing I'd like to add - Some people assume that when you ask questions around here, it means you need a basic photography course.

It is a good thing to warn people with no experience, against buying expensive cameras just because they hope it will make them good photographers with loads of a.net pictures.

However, as a photog with at least some knowledge and experience, also outside of this niche, it is a bit odd, to say the least, to get referred to a photo club when all you have is technical questions about airliners.net motive and centering policies and perceived dust spots. I find it a bit condescending that so many requests for advice on this site get a direct or indirect "why don't you learn first before coming here" kind of attitude.


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2512 times:

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
this is not the place to learn photography, with that I agree. You have to learn photography first, then upload here and learn to conform to this sites ideals.

Yup. Well said.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 9):
This sites standards fly in the face of real photography.

Ditto


User currently offlinePaulinbna From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 1114 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have said this before but there are two kinds of photography A.Net and all others. Most here have learned to deal with A.Net standards and process the pictures that are uploaded here accordingly. I am not saying that I don't get frustrated with the rejections but I move on. You just have to realize that A.Net is not the end of the world. If you get frustrated with this site go out and shoot something else for a while. It will be here when you get back.


Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
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