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Gary Needs More Dogs ;-)  
User currently offlineA380-200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

Or should the title be...

"What has screening really achieved?"

So...what has it achieved?

It seems Johan is letting the screeners take all the strain while he adds regular shots from the travel list as the rest just pile up - the main queue has not moved at all for over a week now - surely this is not what we hoped for.

If Johan has time to add stuff from the travel list then the least he could do is afford the main queue some time. As this is much less likely to need lots of rejections now he could just add some stuff and keep everyone happy. At least we could see that it was reducing...even if only slowly.

It seems to me all this screening business has
achieved is to let people who are relatively new to the site know more quickly that their shots were not good enough - it does nothing for the majority of people who upload regularly and are not on the travel list as their stuff still takes a long time to get added...which surely wasn't meant to be the case.

Am I alone in thinking this...?

Speak up guys.

We all know this is Johans site and we know he is busy and still manages to devote lots of time to running this site. All I'm asking is...has screening achieved what we all hoped it would...or not?

(still 201 photographers before me in the queue)

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
User currently offlineLGW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Well, I agree with what you say (I just didnt have the bottle to start a topic on it!)

I do feel screening has helped, before you had to upload a photo which may be good but not good enough, wait a couple of weeks to be told that its not good enough, change it, wait again etc at least now you know when a photo is not good enough and you can change it and upload again getting a quick answer

Another good thing is the screeners (on the whole) put a personal comment which is good because to wait a few weeks and just be told the scanning quality of this image is low was pointless

But on the other hand I agree that Johan needs to work with the screeners to make the upload process even better and quicker

Is Johan on holiday or away at the mo? Because at the start of August the number of photos in the queue was almost always under 1000 but recently it just keeps rising! I have photos on the upload queue from early early August!

I hope no one takes my comments the wrong way or sees me as attacking Johan/The Sceeners/airliners.net because im not, just making a responce to Dean's post


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4164 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Gary doesnt need more dogs he needs a new one because the other one should already be eaten.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

You have a point, but without knowing what the queue would be like without the screeners it is hard to tell how valid it is.
How many people are uploading less now, how many are uploading more?

In other words, what would the situation be like right now without the screeners (and their sometimes usefull advice on possible improvements).

Still 379 people and 2407 shots before my single upload...

I wish I were flying
User currently offlineA380-200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Thanks LGW for dumping all the blame on me!!!

And thanks for the somewhat reluctant support.

I too don't want to knock Johan/the screeners/airliners.net but I think Johan is big enough to recognise that there are still challenges to be met with regard to the upload process...and I'm sure he and others would agree that screening is only the first step towards meeting those challenges.

As you say, screening DOES work well in two respects in that it separates the wheat from the chaff early on (leaving Johan free to work on the good stuff) and the personal messages from screeners do help newbies to improve their submissions.

But what about the "not-so-new-bies" ?

That's all I'm asking....


User currently offlineCYKA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

I didn't want to say anything, but I have noticed the photos ahead of mine double in the last week. The confirmation times were faster not all that long ago, so it really dosent make much sence. Franky im getting tired of seeing new phtos from all the same locations on an everyday basis(Changi, Hong Kong, Zurich etc) and I think photos from the regular que addded daily would add some veriety to the bunch. Overall its not really fair to the other non travel list contributors, in my opinion anyhow.

User currently offlineLGW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1492 times:

Dean, its just I got a lot of stick once for comments I made so all I wanted to do was show my support but not get black-listed!


User currently offlineSukhoi From Sweden, joined May 2006, 384 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Talking about black listed here I am  Wink/being sarcastic

I think your exactly right Dean **At the moment** all the screeners have done is help those that are not submitting pictures to the required quality and reject non standard pictures from the rest of us.

There was talk of Johan giving the Screeners the power to upload the sooner he can do this the better for the good of the site. If he does this then he can concentrate more on running the site, when it works anyway  Wink/being sarcastic and let them add the pictures.

Until Johan can "trust" the Screeners to upload the pictures "he" likes then were stuck with the system as it is now. Screeners hurry up and convince him you can do the job Big grin or as we know people will start to look elsewhere...............


Paul (Black sheep of the family)

User currently offlineEDIpic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

There's not many sheep left!
Just a smoldering pile...

 Laugh out loud


User currently offlineAdministrator From Sweden, joined May 1999, 3251 posts.
Reply 9, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

As you might have noticed, Airliners.net has been down a lot lately, initially due to hardware issues and now network problems. These are, if memory serves me right, the worst server problems we've ever experienced.

All my time goes into keeping Airliners.net up and running. Photo screening is of relatively low importance and I will continue to use the travel list until things stabilize.

Thank you for understanding,

Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
User currently offlineBruce From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5099 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Johan, thanks for jumping in with an explanation. I too have noticed that I can't access the site at several times. Keeping it online should be 1st priority.

Come on, guys, give Johan a break here....

As for screeners being able to upload, I dont know about that. Rejecting photos takes more time (due to the number of photos submitted) than actually adding good ones to the database. In a perfect world, Johan would have a fairly small queue with few rejections thanks to the Screeners hard work, and it would go quickly.

But the world hasn't been perfect lately....

Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
User currently offlineScreener4 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

We (Johan and the Screeners (sounds like the name of a 60s pop band)) have been talking about the screeners uploading pics to the database directly eventually. We have already taken a step towards this by screeners marking for Johan pictures that are obviously of "high quality". The idea is that eventually these could be added to the database without being screened again by Johan.

The problem is that the screening process is much more difficult than you might imagine. It's easy to reject pictures that are obviously bad, and there are some pictures that are obviously high quality and should definitely be added. However, there are still an awful lot left over that fall into the borderline area. Although in theory, the screeners could add the obviously high quality pictures directly, and this would help things overall, I see it leading to another problem. This is that people who have had their pictures referred to Johan for a decision (which, given the quality of pictures I have screened recently will probably happen for 50% or more of those not rejected outright), which could then take weeks, will become resentful that other pictures have been added straight away by the screeners while theirs still languish in the queue. And if the only pictures Johan is adding are the "borderline" ones, how keen is he going to be to screen them?

I don't know - what do people think about this? As I say, judging from the quality of pictures I've seen recently, I think that if I was able to add them directly to the db, I'd still refer to Johan 50% or more of those that I didn't reject.


User currently offlineCraigy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 1118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

I like your ideas.
These are my immediate thoughts.......

Rather than have a travel list, let the screeners compile the list of 'top photos' and whenever Johan is too busy to upload photos, he can press the button to let these photos through. That way it gives everyone a chance to be on a preferred list, by uploading high quality photos, and Johan can still achieve his objective of getting photos added with little time spent, and it is up to the screeners to do the work.


User currently offlineEDIpic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1376 times:

To S4

This is the most honest statement I've seen from a screener.

Ultimately "J" is the editor of what is accepted but S4 has clarified what goes on in the global business world.

It is called "risk management" and allows lower grades to make decisions that impacts upon the whole business. A compliant corporate structure allows a lower grade to propose and further what is considered to be a profitable course of action. The process is permitted a "fast-track" acceleration to the goal line to achieve the desired result without waiting for the boss to say "Yes".

Webmaster, take note...


User currently offlineScreener4 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

I didn't understand a word of that.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

User currently offlineEDIpic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

Allow/accept "quick hitters".


User currently offlineSonic99 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1343 times:


You've raised a couple of very important points in your post:

I) Screener prerogative to add obvious high quality photos to the database without referring these to Johan for final screening;

II) Continued dilemma dealing with borderline photos. This point is perhaps more "touchy" in it does not, as you stated, completely solve issues associated with a) the queue and b) photo quality (composition, etc.) that may or may not be suitably appropriate (for a lack of words) to be "fast-tracked" for addition.

Perhaps this is a solution in of itself - an explanation is in order. As of right now there exists a travel list to which Johan has access, containing photos of those that have proven themselves as apt photographers. Indeed their additions still pass through the system of first screening, therefore some of their photos may/may not be rejected before ending up on the list from which Johan makes the final decision. Other contributers wait in the sidelines. Essentially this is a two-tiered system.

This proposal entails a 3-tier system containing the following as basic principles and touches on the points made by Craig and Gerry - call this "risk management" without the "risk":  Smile

1) Retain the current travel list - photos still subject to the rigorous screening process - in which screeners may accept excellent quality photos on behalf of Airliners.net. Should there be a "borderline" photo from the travel list it could fall under jurisdiction of point 2) below;

2) Introduce screener/admin acceptance of high-quality photos contributed by those not currently on the travel list;

3) Retain current system involving general category "borderline" photos.

In effect, this would allow Johan to turn his attention from point 1) to point 2) thus, perhaps, accelerating photo review/processing time should the queue grow large again. Obviously this does not solve the issue raised in point 3), however, this certainly shows resolve in maintaining a grasp on the ever-growing database and number of contributions.

There are a few terms in need of definition - such as:
i) "high-quality photos" (obvious full a/c photos with no blatant abberations, distortions, etc... ??);
ii) "borderline photos";
iii) other items ???

These are some thoughts - S4 raised an interesting point from which this arose. Not being fully conversant in the requirements faced by screeners, the above is merely a suggestion that may shed some light onto the introduction of a new system (perhaps?).



User currently offlineScreener4 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (14 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

Point of information for you: Travel list photos DO NOT GET PRE-SCREENED. They are only seen by Johan - the screeners don't see them at all. (This also applies to all photos submitted by the screeners - for the sake of our sanity, we don't screen our own, or each other's photographs!)

The system you just described is something that Johan and we have been discussing for a little while. Johan is keen that the screeners will eventually be adding new material to the database ourselves. Indeed, looking at the size of the queue, and considering that Johan himself made a mammoth effort only a few weeks ago and got it down to 0, you can see that the continual influx of new photos is a big challenge to deal with.

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