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Motive On Cockpit Photos. What's Ok And What Not  
User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6057 times:


1 st one showing was the first upload. Appealed and rejected without answer to the question if it was the pilot. Second one with the pilot cropped out. Rejcted, appealed, rejected. 3rd one was rejected as motive because of the pilots hand on the controls.
So whats allowed on those type of shots and what not.
Pilots visible is ok or not. On those great shots that really deserve their place in the database it looks like its ok to show pilots (if thay can't be identified).

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Photo © Max Teuber
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27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6018 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Another one of the inconsistency areas; well I'm not able to answer your question Peter, but I see the issue and I'll have to agree that it would be great if we could get some guideline here as to what is acceptable and what isn't.
It clearly appears as if the screeners and headscreeners had a common guideline judging from Peter's consistent rejections and appeal rejections but then why not share it with us and avoid us and the screeners much work and time!?  Confused
And if you screeners don't have a guideline, maybe it would be time to get one cause it gets tedious of having shots rejected for motive which were still accepted 1-2 weeks ago withtout notice whatsoever.
And to put it all down to "Please note that motive rejections can also result from other, more subjective reasons. These are usually of an aesthetical nature." as stated by a screener in a recent thread can't really be the solution since it means nothing else than "The screener can reject any picture without reason if he doesn't like it." Remember that most of us don't upload to please the screeners but to show our pictures to aviation interested people.  idea 
So if you screeners have concret guidelines you follow to accept/reject pictures please share them with us.
Talking about it: "Where is the often mentionned illustrated guide which should show us by means of pictures from the db what is and what isn't accepted?"...

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1662 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5992 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

As Peter, as a former Headscreener is aware, I will not comment on the screening decisions of others but I will comment on the one I do know about, the middle one of the three at the top.
I may (only) be a screener in training, but I will hold my hands up and say that I rejected that image. Since I started screening I have made a point of ALWAYS adding a personal where my decision may not be immediately obvious or where I suggest remedial action for a re-upload.
Maybe I should have considered that Peter would understand my reasons, but I actually rejected it for dark and motive. The dark to me is self explanatory (the right side in particular )to anyone but I did add a personal, simply motiv=reflection off console.
Even glancing at the thumbnail (which I did not) the flare/glare from the flash is the first thing to catch my eye.
I think it is very bad form to complain of not understanding a rejection but ignoring (or omitting) the fact that a screener has given a personal for that very reason !
Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5942 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8):
This is a cry baby thread.

As we were explained yesterday there is no inconsistency, there are only those who don't get it  Wink

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Maybe that is why you are not a screener anymore? Clearly you don't get it.


User currently offline9VSPO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Looks like I missed replies 4 through to 22, damn. I love these threads. Big grin

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5885 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

You didn't miss anything 9VSPO. Danny is quoting me from a different thread.

Danny, I would love to tell the people reading this all the stories about you, from "screening" hundreds of shots in just a couple of minutes, to screening your friends shots out of order, but to do so would just make me look bad.

I will let the people in the know nod their heads in approval and all the rest to guess.

See ya  thumbsup 


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
See ya

Will you comment on Peter's photos? Especially on the third which is imho a great shot.


User currently offline9VSPO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5848 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 6):
Especially on the third which is imho a great shot

To be honest I disagree. No disrespect to PUnmuth@VIE since I love his stuff. But my first impressions are is that the top instruments are out of focus.


User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

I am not a screener (and the screeners are letting me know why with all the rejections I am getting lately  Wink ) but couldnt the paper reflections in the window be grounds for a motiv rejection as well?

User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1662 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5828 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 8):
couldnt the paper reflections in the window be grounds for a motiv rejection as well?

Chad,
this was actually raised in another thread. I agree that they could in themselves cause a rejection though they do not bother me - they are unavoidable.
The hand in the middle most certainly does though !

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineJetAv8r From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

From my stand point of view it seems like the standards on cockpit photos has changed dramatically in the last month. I'm still not sure what is and what isn't acceptable any more. I will be interested in seeing where this thread goes. Maybe it'll help me to regain the 20% my acceptance ratio has lost!

Alex.


User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

To be honest the hand in the third photo is a bit distracting for me. Otherwise it's excellent.

The crop of the 2nd photo is IMHO acceptable. The flash iglare sn't that bad.

KS/codeshare



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 1):
It clearly appears as if the screeners and headscreeners had a common guideline

Yes there once was one but it was never released. Why? No idea.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 2):
I think it is very bad form to complain of not understanding a rejection but ignoring (or omitting) the fact that a screener has given a personal for that very reason !

About the dark rejection. Yes i recognized it. I didn't put that part under question in anyway in my thread starting message. I used the examples shown to maybe finally get a clearer guideline on what's acceptable and what not.
About "ignoring or omitting a fact", sorry there was no personal message. In myphotos this pic shows up as motiv and dark, no personal there and i am sure you can check this going through my rejections on the screeners list.  Wink

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 9):
The hand in the middle most certainly does though !

So a part of the hand is a NOA_motive rejection but pilots ears with headsets and pilots shoulders are not. Good to know. This might be the first part of a common guideline.  Wink

Quoting JetAv8r (Reply 10):
From my stand point of view it seems like the standards on cockpit photos has changed dramatically in the last month.

 checkmark 

Quoting Codeshare (Reply 11):
The flash iglare sn't that bad.

And photos showing them are accepted. Just go through the last 500 top of 24 hours and you will find them. http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?tophistory=yes
You might find some pic there and in the flightdeck section only with flash glare visible but judging by those lead me to the impression that small spots of flash glare are acceptable as long as you can read the instruments. No?

What about dark screens? acceptable or not?
Does the outside world has to be exposed correctly or not?

A common guideline (there will always be exceptions as we all know) would be really handy here. As it appears now this area is just like russian roulette in the moment.



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User currently offlinePepef From Finland, joined Oct 2002, 440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5609 times:

The flash glare doesn't distract me at all. Photos 1 and 2 look like they have been cropped from a larger image (you need a wider lens). I'd like to see more of everything, but there isn't more.

The overhead panel in photo number 3 looks distractedly asymmetrical. And the hand is distracting. The crop again , is too tight.

The motive call is always somewhat subjective. Cockpit photos attract a lot of hits, therefore the acceptance rate is low,especially for those who already have a lot of those in the db (you have 114).

-Pepef-


User currently offlineAPFPilot1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5583 times:

Quoting Pepef (Reply 13):
. Cockpit photos attract a lot of hits, therefore the acceptance rate is low,especially for those who already have a lot of those in the db (you have 114).

that makes no sense
why should the amount of hits that a photo gets and the amount of a type of shot that a photog has in the db have any effect on the acceptance rate?

[Edited 2006-09-04 19:05:55]

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9603 posts, RR: 69
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5573 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Pepef is just making stuff up, he has no idea what he is talking about. In fact, he has it competely backwards.

User currently offlinePepef From Finland, joined Oct 2002, 440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 15):
Pepef is just making stuff up, he has no idea what he is talking about. In fact, he has it competely backwards.

What I meant was, it's difficult to take hundreds of acceptable cockpit photos from just a few different cockpits. You'll start to get repetitive and get a lot of baddouble rejections. Therefore your rejection rate will grow.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 14):
Quoting Pepef (Reply 13):
. Cockpit photos attract a lot of hits, therefore the acceptance rate is low,especially for those who already have a lot of those in the db

that makes no sense

Of my 10 latest cockpit photo uploads, some were screened by the screeners, most were placed in Johan's queue. I'm assuming they were placed in Johan's queue because I already had many similar cockpit photos in the db. And those 10 did get a lot of hits.

-Pepef-


Clickhappy, It's always a pleasure to read your polite posts.  Wink


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3904 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Hi Pepef, I don't think you can blame anyone for misunderstanding you there. You made it sound like photos are getting rejected because the photog is popular. Smile

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

Quoting Pepef (Reply 13):
for those who already have a lot of those in the db

I really don't think this is the case.

Quoting Pepef (Reply 16):
I'm assuming they were placed in Johan's queue because I already had many similar cockpit photos in the db.

This might be the case but another possibility would be that you tend to show the crew in your photos. Which is actually a good thing because it brings some life into the photos but the screeners are very sensible about this and leave most of those (not only yours) for Johan.



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User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Maybe the crew can discuss the issues listed below and let us know the outcome?
1.) dark screens yes/no
2.) outside world correctly exposed yes/no
3.) reflections on windscreens from crews papers lying around there ok/not ok
4.) small flash reflections not blinding the instruments yes/no



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User currently offlineAirplanepics From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2730 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 19):
Maybe the crew can discuss the issues listed below and let us know the outcome?
1.) dark screens yes/no
2.) outside world correctly exposed yes/no
3.) reflections on windscreens from crews papers lying around there ok/not ok
4.) small flash reflections not blinding the instruments yes/no

Really, shouldn't you know all the rules Peter? Afterall, you was a head screener? It's only been a couple of months, things don't change that quick.



Simon - London-Aviation.com
User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5309 times:

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 20):
Really, shouldn't you know all the rules Peter?

Really shouldn't you read the whole thread before answering? Maybe that would answer your question.  Yeah sure

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 12):
Yes there once was one but it was never released. Why? No idea.

... and the things written there where never applied in a consistent way, but maybe they are still under discussion, who knows ...



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User currently offlineGuido From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

Hello

I noticed this thread a bit later as mine.
Exact rules on cockpit-shots would be nice.
I'm interested in the rules for night-shots.

A motive rejection for "so-called creative" is a incorrect argument.
It would mean that no spotter is an artist. I think we all are.
Using this argument to reject is the last of all and shouldn't exist.
Makes me think of a journalist who was sacked because all art was b*llsh*t in his eyes.
When unemployed, suddenly he liked it and came back with some great articles full appreciation.

Pilots see this in daily life, so spotters should admire their privileged sight of reality and accept these shots without hesitating.


User currently offlineTommy Mogren From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 912 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5144 times:

I've been following this thread with great interest as I'm just as eager as Peter in finding out the rules.

So, can anyone official jump in and set the rules straight ?


Tommy Mogren



Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 65
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5140 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 19):
Maybe the crew can discuss the issues listed below and let us know the outcome?
1.) dark screens yes/no
2.) outside world correctly exposed yes/no
3.) reflections on windscreens from crews papers lying around there ok/not ok
4.) small flash reflections not blinding the instruments yes/no

1. Dark screens are ok. But dark screeners with big flash reflections are not.

2. As long as the inside is exposed correctly it's fine. If the inside is too dark though or if the edges blend into the sky it's a reject.

3. Ok within limits. Small pieces are not a problem

4. Yes, some bright spots are ok

5. Pilots. Can not be recognisable, no faces from the front or too much from the side. Otherwise it's fine as long as the pilot is not the main focus of the shot.

Tim



Alderman Exit
25 Philthy : Then how are we to explain the second shot from the top in the left hand column in the first post of this thread? And not a few similar shots in the
26 Post contains images PUnmuth@VIE : Thanks for clearing the issue up Tim. It's appreciated! Well it's in the database so lets not discuss it. Peter[Edited 2006-09-15 07:33:44]
27 Post contains links Jat74l : I got this rejected for motive (among other things). http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ig/20060914_G-BUSF041024JATGLA.jpg So what's the deal here
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