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The "New" Professional Photographers  
User currently offlineN314AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8344 times:

Suddenly, there are thousands of professional aviation photography companies out there that I haven't heard of. These same "Digital" photogs are shooting props at 1/1000 freezing them on the photo making the plane look like the engines are off. Others are now hiring pilots to fly over airports and taking cropped telephoto shots of planes landing and taking off and calling yourselves "Air to Air" photographers. Most of you probably don't know what PSA or Air Cal meant. Let me repeat: An air to air photographer is a person who is set up to fly NEXT to an airplane, usually established by an airline or airplane owner. John Dibbs, Bob Shane, Chuck Stewart, Paul Bowen, and the late George Hall are samples of REAL air to air photographers. These people have been doing this for a living and have established themselves with film and digital. Flying 4000 feet over LAX and taking a rotation shot is NOT air to air. This photography is called AIR to Ground. It is not set up by an airline or company. Digital does not make you a professional photographer overnight. You must still follow the same rules as in shooting slides....full frame (Not Cropped), sunny, etc. If you really have a company that markets aviation photos to professional companies (i.e. Check Six Photography), then call yourselves Pros, otherwise, don't.

227 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8337 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Hi Joe  Smile

I sense your frustration, but your slides still kick ass.

Pretty hard to compare photos from someone like George Hall to most of the photos on A.net.


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

Quoting N314AS (Thread starter):
Flying 4000 feet over LAX and taking a rotation shot is NOT air to air.

Who said it was? Not me buddy.  Smile

Quoting N314AS (Thread starter):
call yourselves Pros, otherwise, don't.

I never have called myself a pro. Although I think I do take a bloody good photo (occasionally).  Wink


User currently offlineN314AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8319 times:

Thanks. I just want people to know what real photographers go thru and not just this overnight sentation stuff. There are great photos out there, I admit, but not everyone has a company like they state. Those air to ground shots are neat, but had there been slides, those would not have happened. Digital photographers crop their photos to make them look full frame but I can assure that some of those takeoff shots are cropped.

J


User currently offlineN314AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8318 times:

Hello 9V. Thanks for the reply. I am just making some people know that flying over LAX does not make you a pro photographer like some of those mentioned. There are many here who do take great photos on digital but don't brag about it. I am not against everyone. I admire many on this site for quality stuff....it's just that some go too far but they don't have a clue what it was to shoot on slide or other film to be successful.

Cheers

J


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8313 times:

Quoting N314AS (Reply 3):
Thanks. I just want people to know what real photographers go thru

I totally agree and I have nothing but the upmost respect for those guys. If I was even 10% as good as them I'd be happy.  Smile


User currently onlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8301 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

I sense that someone is pi""ed here but I've got the impression that I missed the beginning of the story?
What got you so upset if I may ask?

Cheers,

Thierry (great admirer of George Hall's photography and former slide shooter  Wink)



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

Quoting N314AS (Thread starter):
Suddenly, there are thousands of professional aviation photography companies out there that I haven't heard of.

Why does all this bother you?



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8237 times:

Joe,

Technology has improved at such a rapid pace over the last few years and I have no doubt it will improve even further in the years to come. And to some it probably has come like a bolt out of the blue. That's just called progress and you can't really blame photographers for that.

If you have a specific issue with someone, probably best to take it up with them personally. To me it's a hobby and it's fun.  Smile


User currently offlineN314AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8215 times:

DLX - First, I am not criticizing most people....I know there are good digital shooters out there. When slides were the only things available, only the good photographers succeded. You had to make right shots or your money was down the drain. Today, there is more of an ego of putting a shot up to be most popular etc than before. They are taking digital photos, cropping them, and uploading them right there at the spotters sites via wireless computers. I know some who have missed a great day of shooting only to go home and upload a hot item before anyone else does. This is becoming a stupid drug instead of a friendly outing. To me, I can care less who is first. Quality comes first! Some of the old "bad" slide shooters are suddenly pros. Digital is nice but it is dummy proof. The art of doing a great shot is over. Thanks to digital, now all these "pros" are coming out of the closet and this hurts the real companies who have made a living with aviation photography. I do not criticize a good digital shot....some are full frame and well taken (some by former slide shooters), but I criticize those that think they are now better than George Hall and they should be hired by Clay Lacy to replace him. Again, hiring a Cessna or a news helicopter to say they are air to air photographers puts a stab on the real air to air photogs of the past (and present).

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8206 times:

I agree but disagree.

I don't upload to A.net for two main reasons:

1) I can't use photoshop (becuase I'm a photographer not a graphic designer!)
2) I submit a lot of my work to the aviation press and I'm not sure they'd like my pics plastered all over the internet

I have been blasted in these forums on occasion for not uploading my photos, and it has been suggested that, because I don't upload, my images must be crap. I came from slide photography and with that, everything had to be, as you said, spot on. You couldn't crop, level, sharpen, brighten or any of the other things you can do to 'tweak' your pics post-capture today. With digital, I use the camera (not Photoshop) to get the images right, just as I did with slide. I get full-frame shots, with sun on the aircraft, and preferably with a blue sky. It's hard work but I make damn sure the planes are EXACTLY in the middle of the frame, and I check each and every shot for focusing errors, vignetting, bokeh, etc. I think what Joe's trying to say here is that some pics on this database would be nowhere near as good as they are if we were still shooting on slide, and I think he's probably questioning if some of today's digital photog's actually have the full know-how with the camera they're using rather than just the necessary Photoshop skills. I for one don't like the fact that, if I were to upload here, my pictures would be judged by my editing skills post-capture and not by the composition or skill required to actually capture the photo in the first place.

On the other hand, I disagree because digital should be for everyone, and it should open doors for those who want great shots but haven't got the time to sit down for weeks learning about every function of their camera. We are photographers, and presumably we all love the hobby and we all like looking at other peoples' shots, however they've been taken/edited. We cannot really knock those who crop to hell because at the end of the day it's their choice, and they certainly aren't doing anyone else any harm. To me, the way people take and process their shots is irrelevant - as long as they're happy, then so be it. And more to the point, as long as A.net and its followers are happy, then so be it too!

Cheers,

Karl


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8207 times:

Quoting N314AS (Reply 3):
I just want people to know what real photographers go thru and not just this overnight sentation stuff

What are you saying? That someone buys a DSLR and the next day they are taking great pics? This is not true, believe it or not you still have some photography skills.

Quoting N314AS (Reply 4):
it's just that some go too far but they don't have a clue what it was to shoot on slide or other film to be successful.

Come on, I know someone who shoots for Sports Illustrated and he is a very accomplished professional photog, after he shoots a hockey or football game he hands in the CF cards. You think those images are used in their raw state? Of course not, they are cropped and leveled and sharpened etc. Does that make him not a professional photographer? He has shot film and now shoots digital. The DSLR and Photshop are part of the evolvement of technology and photography. Sounds like someone is having a hard time with that. If you feel people here that shoot digital and then use PS to edit their pics are less photographers than the ones from years ago great. but I don't try to say their accomplishments are overnight. Truth is there is some talent there.


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

You just have to go with the flow Joe. I think if you are good then you are good no matter what gear you are using. The photog makes the photo not the gear. And if you are really that good you will carry on being good and still be better than the rest. And if you are not them maybe you were'nt as good as you though in the first place. Just my 2c.  Smile

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8186 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
The DSLR and Photshop are part of the evolvement of technology and photography.

DSLR, yes; Photoshop, no.

To me, photography is the ability to capture images well by simply using the camera alone. Photoshop doesn't MAKE your pictures (you and your camera do that), it simply enhances them. OK, the press and other publications may wish to have the pics edited, but that's simply because they CAN, not because the photographer has made a mess or that they are otherwise unacceptable.

I'm sure such publications would settle for the unedited, raw version if they had to, providing the original was up to scratch.

I can't/won't use Photoshop simply because I'm old-fashioned (I'm only 28, for Christ's sake - what am I saying?!), but I wouldn't think any less of a photographer if they chose to use it. I dare say that there are a lot of good ex-slide photographers out there who now rely on Photoshop simply because it makes things a whole lot easier. Not my cup of tea but if it's there, why not use it?

Karl

[Edited 2006-10-17 20:28:10]

User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 13):
Photoshop doesn't MAKE your pictures (you and your camera do that

Yes I know and that's why some of my BEST images have required the LEAST amount of editing. You still have to get the shot EXACTLY how you want it in the first place so don't give me that crap. I agree about the air to air issue but the rest just sounds like sour grapes on your part.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineRyangooner From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 969 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Im not sure where your beef has come from, looks like some sour grapes, technology changes and it has in a huge way, any tom dick or harry can get a DSLR but the time has changed.
I dont think anyone has disputed the great photog's you mention but to critisize someone hiring a cessna to take a pic of what you call air to ground is a bit harsh.

I may not be an expert but "Air to ground" says to me a shot taken whilst you are in the air of an aircraft physically on the ground.

An "Air to Air" shot says to me a shot taken whilst you are in the air and the aircraft subject also being in the air regardless of the angle or stage of its flight.

so those rotation shots of aircraft taken at LAX from the air say to me they are also "Air to Air".

so i disagree with you on the definition of the above!

Ryan



ooh to ooh to be ooh to be a gooner!
User currently offlineTimdegroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8152 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Joe, I can show you some of these "fake" Air-2-airs that will blow away a lot of "Real" ones. Semantics in my opinion, all that matters is the end product.

Agree with you for the rest though, nothing beats a perfect slide Wink

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8140 times:

There's no sour grapes at all. I'm simply trying to put what Joe said into some kind of perspective before he gets an earful.....

I agree with some of his points but disagree with others. To some, Photoshop is a taboo. To others, it is a way of digital life. No-one's right and no-one's wrong, each to their own. I personally won't use it, but I understand why some do. I don't think Joe's suggesting that anyone who uses Photoshop for editing isn't a real photographer, more the fact that there is increasing potential for folks to make mediocre shots look good. And if you can get away with that, why not? I sure wish I could make some of my old slides look good...

All said, everyone takes crap pics from time to time (even pro's stuff up!), it's just that some (like me) bin them and others take them home, play with them and somehow make them look alright.

The whole idea of digital (whether it be SLR or compact) is to make things easier, and to make photography available to those who don't know a lot about it. Although a DSLR can be set to simply 'point-and-shoot', it's generally accepted that most users know at least a handful about photography.

Karl

[Edited 2006-10-17 20:45:47]

User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8130 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
There's no sour grapes at all

You could have fooled me.  Yeah sure

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
To some, Photoshop is a taboo

Why though? Honestly, what's so bad about it? Why is it to some like showing a crucifix to a vampire? It's just progression. I'd have thought you would have embraced it since it's there to help you.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
it's just that some (like me) bin them and others take them home, play with them and somehow make them look alright.

That isn't true at all. On my last trip I took around 300 pics. Out of those I think I found about 10-15 that I thought were any good (IMO). Believe me, if I think a shot is crap I'll bin it there and then, I won't try and save a bad shot by using Photoshop.


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8113 times:

Quoting 9V (Reply 18):
Why though? Honestly, what's so bad about it?

Nothing's bad about it, I just don't want to use it. Is there anything wrong with that?

Quoting 9V (Reply 18):
You could have fooled me.

Well I fooled you then. All I want is good, side-on shots in perfect sunlight, end of story. Creative shots, such as those taken from a Cessna at LAX, just don't appeal to me and I've no desire to take them. They're kind of interesting but they all begin to look the same after a while. That's not to say they aren't great photo's, of course - but they are no better than a lot of other images in the database. Having a Cessna to fly around in doesn't make us great photographers. And the photographer in question is Sam Chui, who regardless of the Cessna is actually a very competent photographer.

Karl


User currently onlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8110 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Quoting N314AS (Reply 9):
When slides were the only things available, only the good photographers succeded. You had to make right shots or your money was down the drain.

Yeah, but even then good photographers took hundreds and hundreds of shots to get the few ones that really worked and which they could make money with. Only now with digital photography it's much easier to handle.

Quoting N314AS (Reply 9):
Today, there is more of an ego of putting a shot up to be most popular etc than before. They are taking digital photos, cropping them, and uploading them right there at the spotters sites via wireless computers.

That is just a personal attitude thing; this also existed before the digital age, only then they didn't have wireless computers.  Wink

Quoting N314AS (Reply 9):
Digital is nice but it is dummy proof. The art of doing a great shot is over.

No way!!!  no 
Digital makes some things (like exposure) much easier to handle but getting a really good shot is just as difficult as with the analog cameras as you have to get the right moment and light and no camera in the world can help you with that. Also I don't really understand the issue you have with cropping photos; this is just a tool you may easily use with digital photography but is largely dependent on what you use your photos for; for the use on A.net with uploads being accepted from 667x1000pixels on it certainly is used extensively and makes some photos look better than they actually are but for large print-outs you'll still have to get a good full frame.

Quoting N314AS (Reply 9):
Thanks to digital, now all these "pros" are coming out of the closet and this hurts the real companies who have made a living with aviation photography. I do not criticize a good digital shot....some are full frame and well taken (some by former slide shooters), but I criticize those that think they are now better than George Hall and they should be hired by Clay Lacy to replace him

That is not a new issue; there are also kids (and older kids) who fly around in Microsoft's Flight Simulator and think they could land a B747 in real life --> what do I care? Just let them believe it if it makes them happy...

Quoting N314AS (Reply 9):
Again, hiring a Cessna or a news helicopter to say they are air to air photographers puts a stab on the real air to air photogs of the past (and present).

In general I agree with you but already taking the initiative of doing that and getting in a position where you might take such an A2A (or A2G) shot and get it right surely deserves some recognition.

And in the end: a good shot is a good shot no matter who took it and whats written in the profession section of his/her business card.

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
Having a Cessna to fly around in doesn't make us great photographers.

I never said it did.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 19):
Creative shots, such as those taken from a Cessna at LAX, just don't appeal to me

Whatever.


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

Quoting 9V (Reply 21):
Whatever.

Actually, the flying over LAX part interests me greatly, but the airborne photography bit certainly does not. OK, I'd probably give it a whirl but if I had the choice of that or being airside shooting rotations from beside the runway I'd much rather do the latter!

Karl


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8091 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 20):
there are also kids (and older kids) who fly around in Microsoft's Flight Simulator and think they could land a B747 in real life

Well it worked for the 9/11 hijackers so maybe these kids ain't so naive.....

Karl


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8082 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 22):
I'd probably give it a whirl but if I had the choice of that or being airside shooting rotations from beside the runway I'd much rather do the latter!

I'd rather be up in a Cessna, taking pics or not, but unfortunately that costs money I don't have.


25 JakTrax : Nah, I reckon it's much more exhilarating being at the rotation point! Again though, each to their own..... Karl
26 Sulman : Actually taking a Cessna up on a slightly overcast day and popping through the clouds into brilliant sunshine is an almost religious experience, that
27 Ryangooner : And perfect side on shots all look the same to me.... your last 4 words said it perfectly - each to their own Ryan I personally want to try every ang
28 Post contains images 9V : You sound like you have some experience!
29 DLKAPA : What's the matter Joe? Can't handle the pressure now that the playing field is different?
30 Post contains images ThierryD : If your example wasn't so out of place I'd laugh at it! But to your comment: those guys had actual flight training and they didn't actually land the
31 JakTrax : Truth be known, they all look the same to me, but my emphasis is on showing the plane and its full livery, which with an angle I can't achieve. I als
32 Post contains links and images 9V : Like this you mean? *warning: gratuitous plug* View Large View MediumPhoto © Ian Meadows
33 Post contains images Skidmarks : I've read through this and am somewhat confused. Who are these "thousands" of professional photographers? I certainly don't count myself as one. Enthu
34 JakTrax : well if that 747 is about to rotate it used all but 12ft of runway!!! And by the angle of the nosewheel it might just rotate in the viewing park!!! Th
35 JakTrax : Totally agree. One thing digital has done is to give photographers a better understanding of the parameters with which they deal when taking pictures
36 Post contains images 9V : Show us a decent example then! I'm interested - pick a shot that you consider what you really like and post it.
37 Post contains images JakTrax : ...And when I said 'rotation', I meant more like this... Karl
38 Post contains images 9V : Yeah but Karl, I've only got a tiny 15" monitor. That pic is way to big for me to view on my screen. It would take 5 seconds in Photoshop to reduce it
39 JakTrax : Well yeah, but I don't own Photoshop, and wouldn't know what to do with it if I did! Although it's nice for others to see and comment on your picture
40 UA935 : Having read this entire thread I am confused. What started all this? The thread starter clearly has a beef with someone but has failed to substantiate
41 Post contains images NIKV69 : What about dust spots? Or other imperfections? As people have said before PS is best when it is used sparingly. Less is more. PS has become part of t
42 9V : Just ask! Someone at MAN will probably even give you a copy for nothing and it's easy to learn. You must have got some sort of editing software with
43 ChrisH : Talk is cheap. Show some shots then. And no, the simple sideons are not diffcult to capture. At all.
44 JakTrax : I use a Giotti 'Rocket Blower' to remove any dust before every shoot. Since I've been doing this I have NEVER had a problem with dust-spots.
45 Ryangooner : I think you have misunderstood - plz read again, your implying by your tone that i am condeming A2A? I am all for it, just the thread starter i dont
46 Post contains images JakTrax : They are if you want them full-frame and EXACTLY in the middle without using Photoshop - especially if they're on the move. My talk is cheap? You wan
47 ChrisH : they're all a bit low in the frame but nice shots. But still just snapshots. Nothing wrong with that, just don't say they are hard to capture. A littl
48 Post contains images 9V : Ouch!
49 JakTrax : Well put it this way, if I snap 300 shots in one airport visit, they don't all come out like that! I find it pretty difficult to get them exactly in t
50 Post contains images Mrk25 : Karl, I wouldn't rely too much on the old rocket blower I see 4 dust spots on the Onur Air just above the titles alone
51 JakTrax : Hmmm, yes I see 'em, but I had to zoom in and look bloody hard. I must admit, the last couple of times I've shot, I've not blown my sensor clean. Let
52 9V : Lets say yes just for bebate's sake. What do you say to counteract that?
53 ChrisH : tough toblerone. I'll buy the argument they were harder to get back in the film days with a manual Nikon F ha ha, thinking "one shot = one dollar" Th
54 JakTrax : Well seeing as I have in the past taken some good creatives I say they were as hard/easy to take as the side-ons. I find creatives to be much more opp
55 JakTrax : Except my pockets do get lined from these type of shots. You're right, that's my prerogative. That's what I like. That doesn't make me any less compe
56 Post contains images ChrisH : Terrific, so you're in it for the money then. Nothing wrong with that at all. Course not up to you mate. I couldn't care less how many pics you take.
57 INNflight : So your definition of air to air is set up by an airline or company? Naah dude. Who are you to set these guidelines? Sounds like Joe (no pun intended
58 StealthZ : I sometimes comment to a fellow Anetter that the forum has been a bit quiet. This certainly livened thing up for a while. Not sure what Joe's beef is
59 JakTrax : Thanks to digital, and a little imagination, anyone can take creative shots too. I have been taking photo's of aircraft since I was four and am certa
60 StealthZ : That might be your definition of creative, mine is more like this- cre·a·tive adj. Having the ability or power to create: Human beings are creative
61 D L X : I was just thinking this, but you said it oh so much better. And that's a good thing! If you're complaining that there's too much competition (and I'
62 JakTrax : Probably the best post in a line of quite a few. I'm not complaining, hell I'm a kid really, I'm only 28! I was taught by an older photographer whom
63 AdamWright : They're just pictures of airplanes people.. jeez.. no need to get your panties up in a wad..
64 Post contains images N178UA : Joe, Even my name is not spelt out I somewhat felt I was involved in your post. I started shooting slides for almost 5 years before move on to digital
65 Post contains images N178UA : P.S. If this is a slide shooter full frame center photo competition, then I am all in. I thought we had that few years ago!!!! I've just given up uplo
66 TransIsland : Doesn't sound very professional... Quite frankly, I don't understand the debate. Digital is here to stay, and so is Photoshop. Traditionalists and pu
67 JakTrax : Hardly surprising seeing as I'm not professional. At the end of the day, each photo in this database, whether creative or side-on (or whatever other
68 Post contains images Joge : Bingo! Being a professional photographer doesn't still mean you take good shots. And a good photographer can take good shots with any equipment, any
69 Post contains images Eadster : Is this a gripe about how cool the digital age is? I started with film many years ago to. They things are going there is nothing that can be done to s
70 Flyfisher1976 : No format makes you a "professional" over night. Too many people throw the word "professional" around here without really knowing the meaning(s). Eit
71 Post contains images JeffM :
72 Eadster : Great and very valid point. The exact same for me also. Creative shots are by far more appealing than side-ons.
73 Post contains images Linco22 : Morning folks, I've just read some of the replies to the original thread starter. Interesting that alot of people are getting flustered over these a.n
74 Post contains images INNflight : I wonder why you all get so desperate in the side-on vs. artistic debate?! There's no better or worse imo, these are just two possible approaches to a
75 Post contains images Timdegroot : Yeah what happened to the good old fuji v.s K64 debates, now those were fun Tim
76 JakTrax : This is exactly what I'm saying, but all those creative photographers out there seem to have a hard time with the fact. "Side-ons are easy, creatives
77 Ryangooner : Where in this thread has anyone said that your a better photographer if you do creatives and that creatives are difficult.? You say "But all those cr
78 Codeshare : I see the whole thread is skidding off the tracks a bit. To me here the worry about the "professional" photographers comes down to one thing: money. I
79 Post contains images Skidmarks : Andy
80 JakTrax : I don't tend to have a creative tendancy and if you refer to some of the earlier posts you'll see comments stating that side-ons are "easy" and are "
81 Pavvyben : Completely agree, a great statement. Depends, everyone has a vision of what a "good picture" is. For me and many others, you could have the most amaz
82 N314AS : I am not criticizing good photos, digital or not. I like most people on this site and many of you know me that I will go out of the way to shoot with
83 AKE0404AR : Joe hit the nail on the head. I like your attitude. It would be good to have more people around like you! Digital era defintely has changed the game.
84 JRadier : Why are that not air to air's? The photographer is airborne, and so is the subject. Thus the photo is made from the air to the air, and thus A2A. Tha
85 UA935 : So what is the correct etiquette in this hobby according to you then? I have watched this post with interest but feel that this has now decedned into
86 Post contains images 9V : Joe, I don't understand why it bothers you so much really. As I have said before if you are good at what you do then you will continue to do it. Prof
87 Post contains images Gary2880 : Feel better? Ditto. And i don't need yet another jumped up old guy telling me i'm not a ''real photographer'' just because he's pissed off at the amo
88 Post contains links and images N314AS : A shot taken from a Cessna or whatever to a subject landing or taking off way below is an air to ground shot. First, it was never set up by the airlin
89 UA935 : Who cares re air to air, it only seems to be you who has issue here N314AS, what are you trying to achieve here?
90 Post contains links and images Gary2880 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Gary Stewart Is that turned enough for you?
91 Fly747 : Says who??? A bunch of old guys? So now shooting from a cessna, or any other aircraft is not considered an air to air shot unless it's set up by some
92 JRadier : WHY are the take-off shots not air-to-air? Because they are not in the way A2A started? Is what we are doing now actually photography then? We are get
93 Post contains images 9V : Joe, Those are great pics there. One's I could only ever dream of taking! And I doubt anyone is trying to under value those shots, they are amazing. G
94 Post contains links and images Timdegroot : View Large View MediumPhoto © Sam Chui Cooler shot than those "Real" air-2-airs imo. Those are nice shots too don't get me wrong but when compare
95 Gary2880 : It shows an aircraft doing its job. Unlike staged air 2 air shots. The photographer has not interfered with the subject. Or made the subject pose in
96 JakTrax : I agree with this statement but we can't knock these 'newbies' for wanting to be passionate about aircraft. They have as much right to be there as th
97 9V : Do you have any idea how completely patronising you sound? So because I've never done slides I'm basically not good enough to take a photo? You are g
98 Gary2880 : Probably should have added this quote to your sentiments.
99 JakTrax : Oh do grow up! It was never meant to be patronising and I'm not trying to say I'm a brilliant photographer! On the whole, it's always best to have as
100 Post contains images LOCsta : as I have seen stated here before...... A big difference between a professional and real good amateur is the connections! I don't know if the old scho
101 JakTrax : My post was about encouraging young, inexperienced photographers, not about slating those who've never used slide. It may be hard to believe but I now
102 Ryangooner : I shall quote myself again N314AS - I think your are completely wrong, times have changed my friend A2A used to be what your pointing out but technolo
103 D L X : Is this the center of the beef? That you are fortunate enough to have an airline put you in a plane to fly next to theirs? And if you don't, it's not
104 JakTrax : Now hang on here! The initial post referred to 'kids', those who have, presumably, just invested in digital equipment. This is my point to Ian. I'm n
105 Post contains images Spencer : So, which argument you using mate? Make your mind up! Either you started slide shooting at 4 or 5 years old (righto!) and thought you had it mastered
106 ChrisH : The 25 yearold is A BETTER PILOT if he flies the A340 using the equipment at hand. IF the 40-year experienced captain still flies the plane using the
107 JakTrax : If you think I've got zero shots to show that's fine by me. I ain't gonna prove otherwise because I have nothing to prove. The shots I take are a per
108 JakTrax : Yes, because digital makes that possible. But without that 22 years of knowledge I certainly wouldn't be taking better pics. What's so hard to unders
109 Fly747 : How do your images sell if you prefer no one sees them? Ivan
110 ChrisH : They're JUST THAT GOOD! 22 years of shooting unassisted etc.
111 JakTrax : Fair point, perfect example of me typing but not thinking. I sell newsworthy or topical shots, that's it. The remainder I class as my personal collec
112 Ryangooner : You dont use photoshop, the only pics of yours i can go on are the 4 or 5 in your user profile, they are all full framed i give you that but to say t
113 Fly747 : So you hang around airports waiting for a new paint scheme? Or how do you achieve a newsworthy image with a "perfectly centered side-on" shot? Ivan
114 Spencer : Not hard to understand at all Karl mate. That was merely my point. What I can't understand though is you've progressed onto DSLR from slide, yet you
115 BigPhilNYC : Really interesting discussion. I’ll reply step by step. Pardon the long post. I have a lot of respect for Joe Fernandez, and also the greats like Ge
116 9V : I've been taking photographs for about 5 years now. In the beginning I knew hardly anything about the principles of photography. I know a lot more no
117 Dacman : Hi Joe, Agree 100% with you. Some guys are just better with photoshop, especially the ones that have never shot a K64 slide in their life. By the way
118 Ryangooner : Ok now im interested to LEARN from you, I sell a handfull of photo's, i am not professional and i have 922 photo's on this site, arguably the best si
119 Spencer : Ryan, water into wine mean anything to you? Spencer.
120 JakTrax : My very best pics are slides, however with slide the consistency wasn't there. I can get a very high consistency level with digital. I don't know how
121 Spencer : Then how do you know you can sell them? I'm assuming you know of jaggies and dust spots.... Spencer.
122 Post contains images NIKV69 : When I read this Florian comes to mind. He is young but he takes some of the greatest pics! True he is blessed with a great airport to shoot at but y
123 Ryangooner : You dont know how to make them smaller yet you have owned a digital for 18 months, im presuming you recieved adobe elements or equivelant in your came
124 Vzlet : Joe, I think your definition of "air-to-air" is unduly restrictive. It sounds to me to be the equivalent of saying that a photograph can't be a portra
125 UA935 : Evidently not from the images posted where others have already highlighted the dust spots! I believe that JakTrax is digging a deeper and deeper hole
126 Stu1978 : Quoting JakTrax (Reply 120): I don't know how to make them smaller - simple as that. I assume that when you brought your DSLR it was brand new. As mos
127 Post contains images UA935 : Contradiction! Think before you post. You are digging a hole here and are going to get flamed.
128 D L X : Why are we piling on JakTrax?
129 Linco22 : How many people here could take a roll of film and come back with 50% of them keepers? I know I couldn't. Does that make me a bad photographer? I bet
130 Stu1978 : Quoting JakTrax (Reply 111): I sell newsworthy or topical shots, that's it. The remainder I class as my personal collection and I'm not bothered if th
131 Post contains images 9V :
132 INNflight : That's it. Get him a new thread or email him.... you're off topic here.
133 Post contains images Linco22 : I think the door is this way I'll follow.... Have you got my coat?
134 JeffM : I think you're misinterpreting "professionalism" with "professional". A professional, is someone that makes a living doing something. Example, a prof
135 Post contains images Mikephotos : Colin, I think that is what JakTrax was getting at but was misunderstood. When shooting film (slides) you had to get your keepers ratio up to 90-100%
136 Post contains images Linco22 : Quite correct, thats what I was implying, but usually that should be the standard of a professional. Not always true, but thats the general point I w
137 Post contains images 9V : I disagree. The standards on this site are very high. It raises the bar and if it wasn't for that bar being raised I'd still be where I was 5 years a
138 Mikephotos : The "bar" when shooting slides is much tougher than this site, trust me. Not that I disagree totally with what you said. Mike
139 9V : It probably is but any type of photography requires skill, as I have said before, the photographer makes the pic not the camera. I've seen many shots
140 Flyfisher1976 : It is? How do you figure. Well you better call Merriam-Webster and update them with your "opinion"... Maybe someone should just look up the word unst
141 Post contains images N178UA : I got a personal email from Joe F, he is a good buddy of mine and I met him not long after I started this hobby in Miami, i think in 2001 at Eddy's sl
142 Post contains links and images Photopilot : What hubris to say this. If the photographer is airborne and the target aircraft is airborne, then the photo is Air-to-Air and that is a FACT no matt
143 Mikephotos : Exactly. But when a photographer uses a D-SLR to take a photo that is not full frame, missed the exposure, unevenly cropped, etc. and then "repairs"
144 JakTrax : I know I can sell them, so what's the problem? If you can't figure out how I manage to sell my pics then I'm not going to tell you. There are other w
145 Post contains images JeffM : LOL... I think Steve has just broken Richard's record for one person plugging a single photo.....
146 Clickhappy : I think Steve has just broken Richard's record for one person plugging a single photo That photo has been plugged more times than Paris Hilton.
147 Ryangooner : please quote all of my text when i put what i think a pro is flyfisher, if you think your professional with two $40 mag sales think again. Ryan
148 F27 : I still shoot slides but do own a digital camera. as mike said it costs you big money to shoot slides and there is an art to using them. Any person ca
149 Flyfisher1976 : I never claimed to be an expert... However, I have both participated for gain and conformed to the technical or ethical standards of photography. By
150 StealthZ : I am not sure that is completely true, I am sure though that having been a half decent slide shooter will make you a better digital photographer.. so
151 Spencer : Yet by profession you're an Aircraft Maintenance Supervisor.......... Spencer.
152 Shep : Whatever will be - will be. You can toot your own horn as much as you want. Laborers were the "real men" - a long time ago... And then out of the dark
153 Flyfisher1976 : And your point...? There are many professional facets to my life. I have managed to earn money in just about every interest that I have ever had. Tak
154 Eadster : I was of the impression that a professional Photographer is one that takes pics full time and does as a career? Just like a person that builds houses
155 Post contains images Linco22 : Disagree with that statement Sam. My learning curve, over the last 3 years(since I bought a 3mp Minolta) has been very steep. My DLSR had all the con
156 StealthZ : I think this concept is being taken out of context, let's step back 20 years. A "newbie" picking up an SLR with a nice lens and loading it up with K6
157 A340Spotter : Okay, getting into this conversation quite a ways in, but as one of the photographers in the US that is still shooting K64 in large quantities, I feel
158 Post contains images ThierryD : Jeffrey, why would you do this!? You're limiting yourself in your possibilities; it's like buying a Corvette and voluntarily stay behind the slow tra
159 StealthZ : There it is that holier than thou Bullshit!!... only those that were inept went digital... or had to go digital to get a decent shot!... Mr Holier th
160 Clickhappy : Nope - Jeffery hits it spot on. Maybe we would see real talent if your chosen subjects were not slow moving objects on a sunny day!!! You must be one
161 StealthZ : You think? No, but then there are more challenging subjects than airliners! (Oh I have been known to shoot.. and with some success, on days with less
162 Clickhappy : No, but then there are more challenging subjects than airliners! I was under the impression we were talking about "aviation photography."
163 Post contains images Skidmarks : I actually thought this hobby and website was about taking pictures of aeroplanes and enjoying it, not who takes what with what and running down those
164 Mikephotos : It is 100% true. If you were able to get perfectly exposed slides (or negs), full-frame, in focus, in-camera then you would be 100 steps ahead of som
165 ChrisH : Digital would be a better starting point. You get the results in the LCD straight away, rather than 3 weeks later. The learning process is quicker wi
166 Post contains images FUAirliner : That is exactly the point. Digital photography supports those who think that the only key to great photos is a digital SLR with a lens and a bit of l
167 StealthZ : mmm find it kinda funny that one of the most avowed slide shooters here is fighting this fight.... No it isn't... you said it will make you a better d
168 JakTrax : Exactly the way I see it too. I make money from my hobby, but I put far more IN to my hobby than I get OUT, and I certainly could not live of the pro
169 Post contains images Mikephotos : Sure, you get the results quicker but from what I've seen a lot of newer photographers (and I am not saying anyone here, this is just a general remar
170 Post contains images Clickhappy : most of the crap shots had to be tossed Or else they went in the .25 cent box
171 StealthZ : No I didn't.. this is what Jeffery said.. " Fine, they've made that decision. But what I think Joe's original statements were about is that these pho
172 JakTrax : That depends. It is if you've been shooting film/slide for ten-or-so years. The principles are the same so the learning curve should effectively be t
173 Post contains images Skidmarks : Exactly - and for your information, I am not knocking anyone except those who chose to demean the hobby by adopting the "My system is better than you
174 JakTrax : I'm sure no offence was meant. However, do you somehow feel that telling photographers that their side-ons in sun are 'snapshots than anyone can take
175 JakTrax : On another note, lighten up folks! We should be thanking one another for this thread being the longest and most heated for a good while. It's certainl
176 JakTrax : I'm in no doubt that this didn't relate to anyone on this forum, and I'm also sure he wasn't applying this to all digital photog's. The fact of the m
177 JakTrax : I don't think anyone is saying that. Seems like those getting their knickers in a twist are the ones with the inferiority complexes..... Again, as I
178 Post contains images Mikephotos : You're like a DSLR-poster, posting a bunch of times until you get it right. Slow down, make one post and get it right the first time. Hahahahaha (and
179 Ryangooner : Thanks for clearing this one up Flyfisher, i can now call myself a professional golfer - had a round of golf and bet my mate that i would win, i won
180 Spencer : Probably the best line in this thread! The one true thing I can definitely say about digital is that even after 20 odd years of using film, it was on
181 Clickhappy : Ryan the pro photographer/golfer Actually I think gmoney has you beat, he is a pro golfer.
182 JakTrax : Yeah, good comment. Me too....!
183 Post contains images Jan Mogren : Yea, ok 25 years, but leve the 70ies alone. My K25 are much cosier! /JM
184 Post contains images Linco22 : And probably one of the best i've heard in a while Mike! lol Below is a sequence of shots I took on a day at my local. This when I paniced and just h
185 Post contains images INNflight : So much wasted card memory for a BD 319?!
186 Post contains images Javibi : What is a "slide", if I may ask? j
187 Post contains images Philhyde : Colin, it's as if the aircraft is moving backwards...
188 Post contains images 9V :
189 Linco22 : Yeah I realised that after i'd posted! Glad to see the thread has taken the light hearted approach! Ian thats a killer slide. The kid at the side is
190 Flyfisher1976 : Not my definition... Nice try though. My point is that many people participating in this thread are more interested in what their "opinion" of what t
191 Icebird757 : True, I agree with you Mike. Also when you shoot slides or if you shot slides first, like I did, you learn to hone your skills and I believe that if
192 QANTAS077 : love the word professional in the title...that would mean most of us have been to uni & got a degree in photography, would it not? and that we're doin
193 F27 : Be interesting to see how many digital shooters will have their shots still around in 50 years.There are many slides that have been around from the ea
194 Joge : I make 10x15 copies of my best shots (including slides!). So I'll still have a hard copy of the picture. -Joge
195 Flyfisher1976 : Point proven...
196 Post contains links and images Psych : This is a fascinating debate to read. I am particularly interested in the process of the argument itself - and the strategies that people use to suppo
197 Post contains images QANTAS077 : thank god i have a day job...
198 Post contains links ChrisH : http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63190&dict=CALD professional Show phonetics noun [C] 1 a person who has the type of job that needs a h
199 Post contains links A340Spotter : Okay... StealthZ, I've never met you to my knowledge, but I apologize for offending you in any way. I've certainly been called a lot of things in my l
200 Ryangooner : Flyfisher, you forgot to quote the whole text, i shall do it for you... and that we're doing this as a MAJOR income source. If you have no other job
201 Post contains images Psych : I tell you - this thread should be rolled out in a language class to illustrate the fundamental importance and power of context . Just off the top of
202 Post contains images Linco22 : That explains all the loooong posts! In all seriousness Paul I agree with you. This has been a good thread no doubt, petty in places, but a good thre
203 Post contains images A340Spotter : Colin, I was impressed by the light pole shot myself Jeffrey
204 Post contains images Psych : Now now . Sometimes I think you need longer sentences and paragraphs to ensure you provide a clear context for your comments and to reduce the likeli
205 Post contains images Linco22 : Oh yes, I was proud of that one myself.... And I am one who is totally in agreement Paul! Regards Colin
206 Flyfisher1976 : I don't have to wait to be honoured as a professional...just understand the word as defined by Merriam-Webster. You seem to be unable to differentiat
207 JeffM : I thought you were using a 20d? Did you buy a new camera?
208 Post contains images Psych : . Nice one Jeff. I don't expect anything less from you . I did say 'some'. On at least 3 separate occasions recently - outside the world of this hobb
209 Linco22 : I've had the same thing Paul. My friends think I take great shots of them when we're out and about. But really, they're average compared to what i'd
210 Post contains links JakTrax : Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 199): Andy-To be honest, I was against digital in a big way when it first came out, no doubt about it. I badmouthed it amon
211 Post contains links QANTAS077 : "1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: " http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional if you're making a living out
212 Flyfisher1976 : Disagree all you want...read the definition. According to the definition if you sell your work, you are a pro. No, I never said I did... But I have d
213 Ryangooner : Flyfisher I think we are ALL going to agree to disagree here. I have learnt a few things by this discussion and have loved every minute of it - Thanks
214 Timdegroot : Surprised noone mentioned the term "semi-pro" yet. Tim
215 Post contains images ThierryD : Just thought about that one myself! But it guess it would just have been too easy and we would have avoided about 100 posts in this thread... Thierry
216 Ryangooner : Haha, just been driving home from work and the semi - pro thought popped into my head too! oh well - whats a semi-pro? Ryan
217 JakTrax : I see your point, but you can't take things too literally just because the definition in the dictionary applies to a lot of us. It says 'buy Bisto' o
218 Post contains images Mikephotos : That would be a digital-only photog of course, sorta like semi-hard, not 'good' enough to 'penetrate' pro status, so he's just semi-pro Mike
219 TomTurner : Yes, it is interesting. One thing strikes me is some of the argument (seems) to presuppose that "slide shooters" all learned how to get it right "in
220 Ryangooner : Mike, youve just made me laugh out loud, thats the best definition of them all...! Well said Karl - 110% agreement Ryan
221 Post contains images Mikephotos : Tom..you are correct and a very important fact left out. There are/were many photographers who couldn't grasp the fine art of producing a stunning sli
222 StealthZ : Here I go expanding this story even further, there are probably 3 groups, The Digital only shooters, the ones that learned their craft with digital c
223 Flyfisher1976 : My opinion is that we should not try to re-write the dictionary.
224 Post contains images JeffM : But knowing your profession, probably a card or two short of a full deck? Thought for a moment you upgraded!
225 JakTrax : I actually consider slide and film photographers as one and the same. I shot with both, in fact more so with film during my final years of 35mm. Don'
226 Dazed767 : It's interesting hanging out with others and watching them machine gun something simple as a WN 737. I'll go home with 70 or so shots from a day for
227 A340Spotter : Actually reading your posting with my quote, had to clarify what I said! When I'm shooting action shots, be it digital or slide film, I don't machine
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