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Help With A Certain Technique  
User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

Hi all,

Firstly just to say i'm not a new member, for some reason the $5 a month First Class membership feature isn't available for existing members wanting to upgrade their account, so I had to register a new username and do it that way. My old username was Cosmic.

Now then, I really admire these kind of photos:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Spencer Wilmot



This one above for example is one of my favourite photos in the database, its such a good picture.

Some more examples:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aaron Lupton - WorldAirlineImages



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TFSPhoto




They are excellent photos, and these angles are something I looked forward to getting good results with, with my DSLR.

I haven't quite got that far though, because I'm having a common problem, my tight-angle photos are really not sharp enough. Here are some examples:

Big version: Width: 2406 Height: 1181 File size: 1213kb
Big version: Width: 2334 Height: 1013 File size: 973kb
Big version: Width: 2034 Height: 864 File size: 730kb
Big version: Width: 1860 Height: 750 File size: 598kb
Big version: Width: 2340 Height: 1031 File size: 899kb


You may notice there not that sharp, quite soft and may not even be in focus. I haven't carried out any editing on them, they have just been cropped.

I really would like to be able to get nice sharp results at angles like that, so could anyone offer some advice? Another problem I am having sometimes is that the nose or tail of the aircraft are not in focus, is there a way to get it all in focus? Currently I am on Center weighted (-) focusing.

Apart from that I've been doing well recently, having recently getting 3 in the database plus a few more before the recent 3. Thanks for the help you've given me with my photos so far.

Thanks for your help,
PictureThis  Smile


Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Hi PictureThis/Cosmic.

My first expressions are that there was heat haze where you were photographing, and that caused the blurriness. Looks like the lens isn't focussing properly either.

What lens are you using? And body?

I use () sign for photgraphing, not (-), I think that can help... but not sure.

Regards,
Aero145


User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Quoting PictureThis (Thread starter):
I haven't carried out any editing on them, they have just been cropped.

What image-recording quality are you using? Is the camera set to fine/large?
What AF mode are you using? It needs to be set to Al Focus or Al Servo. Check also the AF Point is on automatic. The images are blurred and I don't understand why you have cropped them in that way either to be honest. Don't you want them full-screen?
 Confused


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Quoting 9V (Reply 2):
Check also the AF Point is on automatic.

Disagree 100% on that. Using that mode there is nothing to stop the camera from focusing on the tail, or some other point in the frame.

Put you focusing point on the center, or one of the others, but lock it down on one so it doesn't roam the frame.


User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Hi there,

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 1):
My first expressions are that there was heat haze where you were photographing, and that caused the blurriness. Looks like the lens isn't focussing properly either.

What lens are you using? And body?

I use () sign for photgraphing, not (-), I think that can help... but not sure.

Most of those examples above were taken during August I think, some at the start of September. It wasn't particaulary hot, but heat haze might have something to do with it, though the same happened at the weekend, and it was raining and not that warm. Lens is 75-300mm IS USM, and the body a 300D. The focus point is 'center weighted' (I think thats the lingo!).  

Hi,

Quoting 9V (Reply 2):
What image-recording quality are you using? Is the camera set to fine/large?

Maximum size and maximum quality image settings.

Quoting 9V (Reply 2):
What AF mode are you using? It needs to be set to Al Focus or Al Servo. Check also the AF Point is on automatic.

I'm confused here, all I can say is at the moment I'm using the center point to focus and its on Auto-focus., using Av mode.

Quoting 9V (Reply 2):
The images are blurred and I don't understand why you have cropped them in that way either to be honest. Don't you want them full-screen?

I cropped them this way just to show the examples.   I wouldn't crop in this fashion usually.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 3):
Disagree 100% on that. Using that mode there is nothing to stop the camera from focusing on the tail, or some other point in the frame.

Put you focusing point on the center, or one of the others, but lock it down on one so it doesn't roam the frame.

EDIT: (just got in before me Jeff)  .

I will look into this. Thanks for the advice!

Cheers,
PictureThis

[Edited 2006-10-24 14:54:28]


Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting Aero145 (Reply 1):
My first expressions are that there was heat haze where you were photographing, and that caused the blurriness.

in the 2 ryanair landing shots there isn't any real heathaze, at least not enough to cause blurryness.

Furthermore it doesn't look like a slow shutterspeed, the problem imho lies with a lens that is lacking resolution, a bit OOF (Out Of Focus) and maybe photo resolution.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

What I meant was I use evaluative metering.  Smile

User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

to what extent are these cropped?


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineGarry From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 185 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

Hi Cosmic - could you tell us what shutter speed and aperture setting you are taking these pictures at please.

The depth of field may be a consideration here, especially if you're using a low f setting with a fast lens say 2.8. It would also be useful to know what lens you are using.

The centre focus point is the way to go in vast majority of instances, as regards your metering it surely depends on the circumstances, just be aware that what your digital camera tells you is correct (ie no exposure compensation) may not necessarily give you a correct exposure, remembering it will meter everything to 18% grey. To successfully expose an image first time needs an understanding of what the camera sees, one can then adjust accordingly.

Garry



www.aircanon.co.uk
User currently offlineJeffm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

Quoting PictureThis (Reply 4):
The focus point is 'center weighted' (I think thats the lingo!).

"Center Weighted" refers to the metering mode, and does not affect what focus spot is used. "Two completely different things. I do recomend Center weighted over evaluative or matrix metering as CW will better measure the area where the A/C is and not things that can potentially skew the results, such as a bright sky which you don't want.

Center weighted,
AI Servo,
Center Focus point
ISO 100-400
f6.3- f10

Should get you in the ball park.


User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Hi all,

Quoting JRadier (Reply 7):
to what extent are these cropped?

All I have done here is open the original in Photoshop, crop around the aircraft and then save the crop. No resizing or nothing  Smile

Quoting Garry (Reply 8):
could you tell us what shutter speed and aperture setting you are taking these pictures at please.

Okey Dokey then,

1. Ryanair 1/640 f5.6
2. Bmibaby 1/1000 f5
3. Ryanair 1/640 f9
4. First Choice 1/2000 f5.6
5. Ryanair 1/1000 f5.6

The lens is a Canon 75-300mm IS USM.

I'm going to make myself look a bit stupid here, but I don't remember having touched any metering settings on the 300D since I got it. I've adjusted the focus point, adjusted exposure compensation and all the rest of it, but I've not considered metering! I remember it on my old camera.

Quoting Jeffm (Reply 9):
Center weighted,
AI Servo,
Center Focus point
ISO 100-400
f6.3- f10

Thanks ever so much for this Jeff! I always like info to mess around with. All I need to do now is find out about this metering mode and AI servo and how to change it!

Thanks for the help everyone,
PictureThis



Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
User currently offline9V From China, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

Quoting PictureThis (Reply 10):
The lens is a Canon 75-300mm IS USM.

Sounds daft but check the focus is on.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting PictureThis (Reply 10):
All I have done here is open the original in Photoshop, crop around the aircraft and then save the crop. No resizing or nothing Smile

how much did you crop (perhaps show us an original photo?)



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineFly747 From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1497 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting PictureThis (Reply 10):

1. Ryanair 1/640 f5.6
2. Bmibaby 1/1000 f5
3. Ryanair 1/640 f9
4. First Choice 1/2000 f5.6
5. Ryanair 1/1000 f5.6

This might be part of your problem, the lens doesn't perform that well wide open.

Ivan



Contrails Aviation Photography
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2255 times:
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Hello Ryan.

I would echo a lot of the comments made above. I was previously using the same body/lens combination, so there should be no reason why you cannot get shots up to the standards required here.

A couple of points that I would add:

* It has been a little while now, but I am sure I am correct in saying that the only way to select AI Servo is to put the camera in Sports Mode. I would not recommend this, as it then automatically goes to ISO 400 - that will have a detrimental impact on your quality. With the 300D I would recommend using Aperture Priority (Av) and setting it around the f8 mark with that lens. This will optimise quality plus give you a decent depth of field/fast enough shutter speed in good lighting. You then need to feel comfortable pressing the shutter half way repeatedly as the subject moves to keep things in focus. If you don't refocus - even for a second or two - then the plane will move enough to cause it to be out when you press the shutter.

* Looking at your images I would say focus is the most important issue. This and a wide open aperture will give soft images - especially when using a lot of zoom. My old lens was pretty soft above about 230 odd mm. Certainly at 300mm it didn't do well. I would be interested in what zoom you are using here.

I see some of the shots are taken at a pretty fast shutter speed, so that implies it is not due to camera shake/motion blur. It seems the lens is just not focused accurately and/or these are all at 300mm. Was the IS on for these? If so all the more reason to think it is a focusing issue.

Do you have a very steady hand? I recommend you take a few shots of something stationary just to check you don't have any technical problems with blur caused by any camera movement. I agree with the comments that you need to select a favoured focusing point - centre one is the obvious one - and get used to composing your image that way. Once focused you can keep your shutter pressed half way and then slightly recompose the image. e.g. if you focus on a nose, but then want the nose to be off left in the image, point the centre point at the nose, press half way and then move the camera slightly right.

I have seen similar problems with focusing before and it turned out that the problem was the guy not realising that he was not focusing the camera correctly.

All the best.

Paul


User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Hello,

Firstly I am really pleased about all the help I am getting with this, thanks for that. I haven't really seen any threads about this before on the forum so this may help others aswell.

Quoting 9V (Reply 11):
Sounds daft but check the focus is on.

Check!  checkmark 

Quoting JRadier (Reply 12):
how much did you crop (perhaps show us an original photo?)

Here is an original of one of the photos  Smile

Big version: Width: 3072 Height: 2048 File size: 1365kb


Quoting Fly747 (Reply 13):
This might be part of your problem, the lens doesn't perform that well wide open.

I think this might have alot to do with it...

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
I was previously using the same body/lens combination, so there should be no reason why you cannot get shots up to the standards required here.

Yes I remember looking at your Photos when I was deciding on the lens earlier this year. On the whole I have been very pleased with its performance and I'm very happy. It's producing some excellent photos.

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
It has been a little while now, but I am sure I am correct in saying that the only way to select AI Servo is to put the camera in Sports Mode.

That will be correct yes, I remember asking about that on here just after I got the Camera.

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
With the 300D I would recommend using Aperture Priority (Av) and setting it around the f8 mark with that lens. This will optimise quality plus give you a decent depth of field/fast enough shutter speed in good lighting. You then need to feel comfortable pressing the shutter half way repeatedly as the subject moves to keep things in focus. If you don't refocus - even for a second or two - then the plane will move enough to cause it to be out when you press the shutter.

At the moment when I use Av (which is practically most of the time), what I do is set it down to the lowest aperture value (sometimes 5.6 etc...). I don't think this is the best thing to do in certain situations though. Next time I will try out f8. Continuously pressing the shutter as the plane moves is something I don't do if I remember. What I do if I remember correcly is focus it and follow it for a few seconds and focus again. Sometimes though I don't think I refocus enough. This is definatly something I am going to do from now on!

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
* Looking at your images I would say focus is the most important issue. This and a wide open aperture will give soft images - especially when using a lot of zoom. My old lens was pretty soft above about 230 odd mm. Certainly at 300mm it didn't do well. I would be interested in what zoom you are using here.

Looking at the zooms Paul, we are looking at 200-300mm zoom at that angle. IS was also on.  thumbsup 

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
Do you have a very steady hand? I recommend you take a few shots of something stationary just to check you don't have any technical problems with blur caused by any camera movement. I agree with the comments that you need to select a favoured focusing point - centre one is the obvious one - and get used to composing your image that way. Once focused you can keep your shutter pressed half way and then slightly recompose the image. e.g. if you focus on a nose, but then want the nose to be off left in the image, point the centre point at the nose, press half way and then move the camera slightly right.

I'm think my hand is pretty steady as I manage to do OK with stationairy subjects, though I have recently been given a pretty nice tripod to use by a relative which I am most certainly going to try out next time! Thanks for the advice on the focusing on the nose aswell, I'm hoping I am going to get that sorted, as it's often very frustrating realising the nose isn't in focus!

I'm going to note all this infomation i've been given so far down ready for when I go out next! Thanks alot for the help Paul!

Thanks,
PictureThis



Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
User currently offlineFly747 From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1497 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 14):
My old lens was pretty soft above about 230 odd mm. Certainly at 300mm it didn't do well. I would be interested in what zoom you are using here.

I second that, I never went over 200 mm with that lens. Going over that and wide open just multiplies the problem.

Ivan



Contrails Aviation Photography
User currently offlineLOCsta From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 306 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2197 times:
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Quoting PictureThis (Reply 15):
Next time I will try out f8. Continuously pressing the shutter as the plane moves is something I don't do if I remember. What I do if I remember correcly is focus it and follow it for a few seconds and focus again. Sometimes though I don't think I refocus enough. This is definatly something I am going to do from now on!

I have been shooting from that same angle, and had problems with a soft nose and tail at F/5.6 due to the extreme depth of the aircraft from that position. After getting the same advice here, I now shoot that angle with F/8 or higher
The focus sounds/looks like it might be the bigger problem. You should take the shot immediately after the final composition and AF. Any delay and you will be risk being out of focus. This is increased again with this angle of approach much more than a side on angle.
You should also try to wait a few secs longer before taking that shot so the A/C is fully in the frame. Will help to retain quality.



Missed 4 chasing 1
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Ryan, I took the liberty of working your shot and it didn't seem too bad after all, maybe it's your editing skills and not your lens or ability as a photographer? Here's what I got anyway from a very quick edit:
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...4509&filename=1161716290MEzjLd.jpg
What do you think?
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Hi there,

Quoting LOCsta (Reply 17):
I have been shooting from that same angle, and had problems with a soft nose and tail at F/5.6 due to the extreme depth of the aircraft from that position. After getting the same advice here, I now shoot that angle with F/8 or higher
The focus sounds/looks like it might be the bigger problem. You should take the shot immediately after the final composition and AF. Any delay and you will be risk being out of focus. This is increased again with this angle of approach much more than a side on angle.
You should also try to wait a few secs longer before taking that shot so the A/C is fully in the frame. Will help to retain quality.

F/8 or higher seems to be the way to go for these angles. Also making sure I take the photo immediatly. If it's helped you out it hopefully should help me out! Thanks for your help.

Quoting Spencer (Reply 18):
What do you think?

I love it! I must admit I haven't edited that photograph due to the original which doesn't appear to be that good, but you've done well with it!

I do still think that the originals could be better though, and the only way to find out if its my editing is to... well... edit it!

Thanks for doing that for me, looks wicked!
Ryan



Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2154 times:

Ryan, no problem mate. It wasn't in any way a dig at your skills as such, but that was the only image I actually opened and as such was the only one I could really comment on! Glad you liked the edit, but as I said it was a very quick one.
Spencer.
(Glad you liked the WZZ 320 btw!)



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlinePictureThis From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 196 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

Quoting Spencer (Reply 21):
Ryan, no problem mate. It wasn't in any way a dig at your skills as such, but that was the only image I actually opened and as such was the only one I could really comment on! Glad you liked the edit, but as I said it was a very quick one.
Spencer.
(Glad you liked the WZZ 320 btw!)

Yes I really like the Wizz photo, the background is good aswell. The photo has great lighting and great colours.  thumbsup 

Here's the photo again which I edited, it turns out I have edited a different one in the sequence to what you edited Spencer, though I do like them both.
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 683 File size: 440kb


Thanks everyone for your help in this thread  Smile
PictureThis



Make sure they know we're playing the game, but we don't need to play the game because we've already won the game.
User currently offlineAcontador From Chile, joined Jul 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2072 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Hi Ryan,

Had a quick look at your edit. You definitely improved the original quality, but the edit is probably still far from A.net. It looks quite blurry (look at the nose/cockpit area) and soft (winglets, tail).

If I would have to guess, I'd say that that day the light was not good at all, that you used a very blurry/soft lens (at f5.6 and above 200 mm), and that you are trying to get the more complicated motives. Thus, my advise would be to revert all above stated, that is try first shooting just side shots, with the best possible light (either morning or afternoon with the sun behind you), and try to get as close as possible to the planes (that lens I would try first at lowest focal length). That way you will get to know your equipment and its limitations, which will probably help you at a later stage when adding more complications to your shooting.

As you may appreciate...been there, done that Big grin !



Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Hi Ryan,

That second edit looks better than the first IMO. No offence to Spencer either who did a good job with it!

I think as stressed before, and its still shouldn't stop you going out with the cam, get the good weather mate, it'll pay off.

I'd also try manual. I know it'll seem like to much at first but trust me its the way to go. I wouldn't go back to priority modes unless I want something specific such as panning.

Good luck, and keep snapping

Regards
Colin  Smile


User currently offlineSpruit From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Quoting Linco22 (Reply 24):
That second edit looks better than the first IMO

Now I have to disagree here, I prefer the first edit, it's a better angle IMHO and sharper. The second edit looks soft around the nose and starboard wing, plus it's dark on the underside (undercarriage) and the colors look slightly wrong to me (Although that mybe my employers cheap monitors).

Love the shots tho, especailly like the 737's with the winglets!

Keep pluggin away Ryan, you'll get there in the end!

Cheers,

Spru!



E=Mc2
25 JakTrax : Having owned a lens very similar to the one you're using, I can say without any doubt that the problem is caused by a wide-open aperture, possibly cou
26 Post contains links and images Psych : Whilst I also made mention about the potential for soft images with this lens, I liked it and am keen to come to its defense . I have a number of ima
27 JakTrax : Indeed, I think this applies with any lens. I also had very good results with the 75-300 and it's certainly excellent value for money, however in cer
28 Post contains images PictureThis : Hi, please excuse the late reply. Yes I think there is still a way to go on these photos aswell. Thanks for the advice. Trying out side-on photos is a
29 SATX : Excellent thread. I have some similar equipment (350D/75-300USM) that I haven't touched in ages but now I have some ideas on how to address my previou
30 BmiBaby737 : Why's that? I've been told to aim for an F10 or higher all the time to give more depth into my photo's. I recently had been going through a problem w
31 JRadier : If I recall correctly for most lenses (especially not the top of the bill lenses, they might be a bit lower) from F8 on there is little gained in sha
32 JakTrax : F10 is a smaller aperture than F8. The higher the F number, the smaller the aperture. Karl
33 JRadier : And that is because it is f/** or "focal lenght divided by x"
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