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How Have Things Changed?  
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3802 times:
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Hi all.

I have just posted in another thread and noticed that it was exactly two years ago to the day that I became a fully paid up member of A.net.

That got me thinking about what was different on the site in those days, compared to how things are now. I would be very interested to know, from the photographers' perspective, what you feel have been the major changes to the site since you have been here -- those for the better and those that you feel could still be improved.

Near the top of my list are issues around the quality requirements for uploaders. In my early days the demands were less stringent, without a doubt. In general terms I accept the high standards now, but with this comes the need to constantly work to help photographers understand as clearly as possible the requirements of them for acceptance. I think more can still be done here, and would like to see that. There was also a different feel to the Forum two years ago -- it felt to me like there was a 'lighter' atmosphere, and more advice giving from seasoned photographers and screeners to those with less experience. I would like to see a return to a more 'helpful' place for discussion, with screeners and photographers working together on issues. For me, too often, there appears to be friction between the two 'teams' -- photographers and screeners -- whereas in fact we should all be in this together, for mutual benefit. I am sure in my early days you would tend to see more constructive comment. Of course, memories are not reliable, but I think there are more disenchanted people now than there were then. If that is correct then this is an issue for us all to address if we care about the site.

What are your views?

All the best.

Paul

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEadster From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2216 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3796 times:

Quoting Psych (Thread starter):
That got me thinking about what was different on the site in those days, compared to how things are now.

My pics were accepted!!!

Actually I tell a lie. I'm actually going ok for once. Having said that I may have made matters worse and could be on a downhill run!

Quoting Psych (Thread starter):
I would like to see a return to a more 'helpful' place for discussion, with screeners and photographers working together on issues. For me, too often, there appears to be friction between the two 'teams' -- photographers and screeners -- whereas in fact we should all be in this together, for mutual benefit. I am sure in my early days you would tend to see more constructive comment.

I try to be as helpful as I can, as you showed me when I was a newbie. I now like to help others in their quest to get acceptances.

I too have noticed this friction. I think that it needs to be worked on as much as possible, but I also understand that screeners are the ones rejecting images so naturally they are gonna cop some flack over that. But on the other hand a rejected shot does not mean its totally awful, just not up with the criteria requirements.

But I totally agree with this:

Quoting Psych (Thread starter):
help photographers understand as clearly as possible the requirements of them for acceptance. I think more can still be done here, and would like to see that


User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

Hi Paul,

Hope you are keeping well. I actually remember how I stumbled across a.net. I had gone on holiday and flown on a futura 737-400. I had remember the reg and typed it into google. I got a link to a database of photos of the aircraft I had flown and many others. It was then linked to airliners. I gave it a click and was engrossed for hours on end! It was like I'd found a pot of gold! (yes, I am sad I know!). It rpogressed from there and at first I wasnt sure about how photos got online etc. I didnt have a camera at that time and over the coming weeks I started to want and want so I bought my first camera, a minolta E323. It wouldn't get any shots on here, but the pleasure I got from going out and taking pictures was fantastic. Not only of aircraft of course. When I signed up to the forum last year the whole quality thing was on the turn. I'd say that was a good thing for me.

Standards have risen even more since then. I think the level of the site is very high. It has its particular rules that in my book aren't always the best way to go but rules are rules. Or more like guidleines i'd say.

So yes Paul, since I've joined alot has changed. Including my acceptance ratio! But I'll not worry about that!

Regards
Colin  Smile


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting Psych (Thread starter):
For me, too often, there appears to be friction between the two 'teams' -- photographers and screeners --

I think both teams can be divided in subgroups which provides more than enough potential for friction between them:
Screeners:
+ The ones contributing frequently to the photography forum and giving us advice and letting us know about changes
- The ones not contributing
Photographers:
+ The ones seeking for serious advice (many)
+ The ones trying to give serious advice (few)
- The ones just appearing here to bitch about a.net and their "negative" experiences. (some)
- The ones trying to make fun out of others (just a hand full)
- The ones thinking a.net and the rules are the holy bible of aviation photography and no critisism is allowed (less than a hand full)



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User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

I miss several contributors who were here a couple of years ago that were genuienly helpful, but who now appear to have moved on. Likewise, it was real shame when several key screeners withdrew from the forum a while back, due to the constant barrage of critisism. Although, I still come here to read, I find the whole tone has changed and it's not such an enjoyable place to be any more.

User currently offlineIL76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 48
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

I've been uploading for 8 years now, and sure things have changed at A.net... How? That'll be too much to mention here, but everything changes all around us, A.net is no exception. Some changes are good, some are bad, and you'll have to live with them or ignore them. Most of them I ignore. I only surf a fraction of A.net: the photos and 2-3 forums. No games, chat, photosales, whatever...
The photos are what matters to me and the quality has leaped enormously over the years. We all learned a lot and that is great. The people/visitors? Well... There are just so many more of them now... In 1998 there were a few 100 uploaders. Now it's just huge! Good in a sense that you meet some great new friends, bad in a sense that the atmosphere is sometimes ruined by some obnoxious &^$@&'s... But this is similar to any group of people (Do you like all your colleages at work?). Thank god you have the freedom to pick who you socialise with!  Smile
In the end, for me not much has changed regarding the hobby: I go the the airport every once in a while, take pictures, go home and enjoy them or share them with others. Basically that's most important and is unchanged over the years.

E


User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

Quoting IL76 (Reply 5):
Basically that's most important and is unchanged over the years.

 checkmark 

At first I thought i don't want to reply here because I think much has been said, but now I think I have to mention one thing.

I started this thread Thumbs Up For Real Slide Shooter Johan Ljungdahl (by Jorge1812 Nov 15 2006 in Aviation Photography)

to point out the work of that guy and that I find it coll to see he still uploads scans from today and gets them accepted under the very high quality standards these days. But most of the replies didn't mention his work or something it was just like "The pics are not acceptable", "They would've been rejected if the remark wouldn't point out they are scanned".......

I think few years or only months back the replies would've been different with a bit more respect of his work and not just jealousness.

Georg


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 6):
I think few years or only months back the replies would've been different with a bit more respect of his work and not just jealousness.

 checkmark 
add those to my list above
- the jealous (way too many)



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User currently offlineInterpaul From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Quoting Jorge1812 (Reply 6):
I think few years or only months back the replies would've been different with a bit more respect of his work and not just jealousness.

I don't think that wanting equal standards for all shots that are uploaded has anything to do with jealousy. Neither is it a lack of respect for anyones work.

Sorry to be rude, I know it's bad style to criticize other peoples work, but the one you posted in your thread is a shot of a common aircraft with some quality problems. Don't get me wrong. It's not a bad shot at all. But it's not rare, not 20 years old, nothing newsworthy. Nothing that should warrant lower standards. If a new photographer had uploaded that shot, stating he took it with his brand new 350D and his kit lens, he had gotten NOA_quality, NOA_grainy, NOA_oversharpened etc.

I don't understand why the standards are so much lower for slidescans. Ok, maybe it is the holy cow of some guys here, but it's just not fair for other photographers who get, in my eyes, very harsh rejections. Just take Hongyins rejection of the AN124 in his thread a couple of days ago. Rejected for dirt that is not visible to 99% of the viewers, even if you use PS to see it, it's still not clearly visible.

So, does the equipment you use have any influence on your acceptance standards? Does being a long time contributor to this site lower the standards? I think the answer to both questions should be a definite NO.

Now flame me or call me jealous if you like. Maybe a screener could shed some light on the matter.

Cheers
Jan


User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3583 times:
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Thanks to all so far for the contributions.

As the thread starter I would be grateful if we could avoid any flaming (though as someone of more tender years I still struggle to get that word into my vocabulary), or any personal attacks. Otherwise that would make this thread symptomatic of one thing that I do think has changed over my couple of years.

I retain my naive hope that it remains theoretically possible to discuss openly and with mutual respect the different themes that - for example - Georg and Jan bring up. They have points to make, and those with a different position should respond productively so that it becomes a fruitful discussion - that takes things forward; be it an individual's particular dilemma or an issue for the site as a whole.

If we cannot achieve this then this Forum becomes a place fewer will bother to frequent - myself included. And - for me - that's one of the site's bigger problems.

Cheers.

Paul

P.S. Just spotted the number of posts next to my birthday cake. That's a big number  eyepopping  ! Wish I could have that against the viewing figure for a few of my photos  wink .


User currently offlineINNflight From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 3767 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3545 times:

Happy Airliners.net day Paul, hope you allow yourself a real piece of cake too  Wink


Jet Visuals
User currently offlineFYODOR From Russia, joined May 2005, 661 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3508 times:

Hi Eduard,

Quoting IL76 (Reply 5):
Some changes are good, some are bad, and you'll have to live with them or ignore them.

Well, with great respect to your position I can't accept this one. There is a third way which is as I think the right one (and I agree with Paul) - is to improve things which are bad. Isn't it?

It is not so hard, I guess with mutual wish (and I can't find any good logical explanation why mutual wish is not possible) to hear the people. If some guys not happy with something - why not to listen them? They might have some good ideas. Question of respect of the photographers is very important one. The greatest success of this web-site in many respects achieved by thier free work - they are organic part of this website as like as screeners team. At least as I see the situation.


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5724 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3391 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Psych (Thread starter):
Of course, memories are not reliable, but I think there are more disenchanted people now than there were then. If that is correct then this is an issue for us all to address if we care about the site.

Not so sure about that, I think it is human nature to remember the "good old days", sometimes they were not so great.
Whilst I had been glancing at the DB from time to time, since 1998 or so. My first involvement if you can call it that was via another aviation oriented Newsgroup in 2002. There I read of people complaining about rejections at this mythical site, rejected for fractions of a degree un level or couple of pixels off centre. Threads about photogs leaving, stopping uploading, grumblings about screener inconsistency etc.
Early last year when I joined A.net there were many threads covering the same issues.

Quoting IL76 (Reply 5):
A.net is no exception. Some changes are good, some are bad, and you'll have to live with them or ignore them

With all due respect to Eduard, this is the thing that IMHO causes the most rancour within the community, the crew attitude that we make changes and you just have to accept that! No one is asking for Anet to be a democracy, but the one group that actually provides the fodder for the beast that Anet has become, often feel disenfranchised.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineTimdegroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3343 times:
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Well I used to feel disenfranchised. Back in 2002 I couldn't get any of my (then print) shots accepted, so I turned to other sites and forgot about a.net for a bit until I was becoming comfortable with slidescanning in 2003 and I was getting more shots accepted. 3 years later I've come a long way. Yes I can also get a little frustrated here sometimes for many different reasons, wether it's rejections, hatemail etc etc but in general A.net is a positive experience.

I still believe a.net is getting better each year, we may think it's going downhill but we have more photos, photographers, visitors and views than ever.

Sure some things need our attention, but please remember that we need to get the queue going while making changes which means it takes a lot of time to get things done. I'd still like to see a comprehensive examples page which I will help people a lot and will help clarify our standards.

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineNorfolkjohn From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 251 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

For me the biggest thing that has changed at A.Net in recent times was the introduction of variable upload limits linked to a photographer's acceptance ratio. Before this was introduced it did not matter if you got shots rejected. Rejections were genuinely learning opportunities with no penalty for trying to learn quickly or try new things. At a stroke the variable upload limits made the entire business of uploading a whole lot more competitive because every rejection had a potential impact on the degree to which you could continue to participate in the site.

I honestly think this has changed the behaviour of most photographers using the site to some extent. I also think it has led people to expect higher standards of consistency and accuracy from the screeners. However in reality this is never going to be possible given that the screening process is inherently subjective. It is therefore inevitable that levels of frustration, complaining, winging etc are going to increase.

I understand why the variable upload limits came in and why they were changed again earlier this year, and I'm not criticising them, but I have no doubt that they have changed the site, the people that use the site and the way they use the site.

I'm not sure whether things are better or worse than they have been. I'd say just different. The bottom line remains that you can like it or lump it - for now I'm choosing not to lump it.

For the future I would like to see the site listening a little more to the people that supply its raw materials i.e. the photographers that supply the pictures. A.Net remains the best aviation photography website that I have managed to find but the competition is catching up fast and, at times, A.Net is possibly trading just a wee bit too heavily on its previous reputation, in my humble opinion.

My thoughts for what little they are worth.

JA



One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11496 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 18):
A.Net is possibly trading just a wee bit too heavily on its previous reputation, in my humble opinion.

I hope this comment right here doesn't fall on deaf ears.

I don't want to say that it's true or false, but it's something that is important to always keep in mind - we live in a "what have you done for me lately" world.

I've been on this site in one way or another for nearly 10 years, so obviously there's enough to keep me coming back. But the day there isn't enough, I won't be. I hope that day doesn't come.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9952 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Well,

I've been uploading here since 1996 but it was in the last 2 years that I really started to focus on aircraft photography when I bought my first digital camera (EOS300D). I have received a lot of help from everybody here so far, from both screeners as well as photographers. Even though the site has changed a lot in the sense that the standards have become very high (yes, I too have had my good and bad days here...), airliners.net has helped me a lot at the same time and it is because of the forums here that my photography skills have improved and are still improving, especially in the past year. So eventually I am happy here as well, even though I sometimes don't agree with a photo rejection. There is also the forums where you can ask questions or just read the posts/threads for the latest aviation news.

I'm looking forward to learning even more here when it comes down to aircraft photography. To Psych, thanks for giving me tips on my photos I emailed to you (a long time ago, haha). If I need more help or tips I hope you can help me out again. Thanks Big grin

Regards,

A388


User currently offlineIL76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2238 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting IL76 (Reply 5):
Some changes are good, some are bad, and you'll have to live with them or ignore them. Most of them I ignore.



Quoting FYODOR (Reply 13):
If some guys not happy with something - why not to listen them?

Fyodor: Of course it's good to listen to the users. I'm sure messages come through to those in power to change. But you can't please everyone. Johan changed a lot on this site after feedback from the users, but this doesn't always happen with a snap of the fingers. Some things take time or are more difficult than they seem.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 16):
With all due respect to Eduard, this is the thing that IMHO causes the most rancour within the community, the crew attitude that we make changes and you just have to accept that!

 Confused I said that I like certain changes (=good) and dislike other changes (=bad). What has this to do with "the crew attitude"? I'm not in power here, I don't make the rules. I can only give input just like any other user of A.net.

I'm speaking for myself. As I said, I only surf a fraction of A.net and if it was up to me, there would be no "chat" or "Book flights & hotelrooms". I guess there was a demand for this and was answered. But I'm a guy who likes basic things with attention to the core business, if I want to book a flight I'll go elsewhere. But no problem, but I ignore those bits. That's fine right?  bitelip 

E


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting Interpaul (Reply 8):
Sorry to be rude, I know it's bad style to criticize other peoples work,

If you know it why do you do it then? For me this is one of the basic changes to the bad on this forums.
The rude "I know its bad style but i don't care anyway" attitude.



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User currently offlineInterpaul From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 18):
If you know it why do you do it then? For me this is one of the basic changes to the bad on this forums.
The rude "I know its bad style but i don't care anyway" attitude.

There's one important thing, Peter. It was not my intention to criticize one certain shot, or a certain photographers work in general. I just felt the need to make a good point. Obviously you have to be rude sometimes, to make people listen to you. Of course it's bad style, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I don't care about it. Actually it's the exact opposite. I DO care, that's why I speak up in this forum. And I know that many many other photographers feel the same way about the matter.

Cheers
Jan


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

There is nothing to say against making a good point. But I think its very important how you (or anyone else for that matter) make your point.
If John Doe (using this name instead of quoting text from Jan because this is no personal issue I am having with Jan) can't make his point without being rude than John Doe should rethink his phrasing.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Peace
Peter



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User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

How have things changed?

Egos around here have gotten huge, and fragile. There used to be less philisophical disscussions about what's wrong and how can we fix something, and more technical discussion on equipment and technique.

So. I'll say it again. Oh Brother. Hopefully that statement won't hurt someone's feelings like the last time.  Smile


User currently offlineINNflight From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 3767 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting JeffM (Reply 21):
There used to be less philisophical disscussions about what's wrong and how can we fix something, and more technical discussion on equipment and technique.

Something I agree on for once. The boards were more lighthearted, full with enthusiasm and joy about the whole photography thing, not just noa_thisandthat and thread_whygotthisinandthatnot.

Don't want to make the impression of being on a high horse, but 80% of the threads nowadays are either waste of time because they lack in mature communications or simply no joy to read because of photographers blaming the screeners and vice versa.

What's that screener / photographer thing here about anyway? It's a website, we upload photos which we decided to do because we're passionate about and interested in aviation.

Don't get me wrong, I like this site a lot, learned tons of things here and had the pleasure to meet dozends of easy-going people through this site, but
honestly, WHO cares about *+&^# airliners.net?!? This site is taken way too seriously by the majority.



Jet Visuals
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2818 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Some more important points being raised here. I find myself agreeing with many.

I don't mind the philosophical discussions, and I am certainly in favour of people taking more care about how they make their points. But it seems there are quite a lot of people out there who - apparently almost because this is an internet discussion forum - do not believe that these things are relevant and important. I would still argue they are.

I certainly think that there are less educational/technical issues being discussed, and would like to see that come to the fore again. It seems that relies on some key people. So - important in my opinion - is that people do not experience the Forum as an unrewarding place to be, where the debate is ill-tempered, whinging or hostile. Do you?

Paul


User currently offlineLinco22 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 23):
I certainly think that there are less educational/technical issues being discussed

Paul,

This is the one thing that is missing from the forum at the moment. Alot of people who come onto the forum looking for that rejection help - myself included here - can benefit from those kind of discussions over the usual photograph bashing that goes on.

And Jeff, I don't even have an ego! And if I do, I think I sit on it.....

Regards
Colin  Smile


25 Eadster : Yes, I agree, it could be a very valuable page IF it ever comes about, which it should.
26 Post contains links and images Interpaul : Ok then, let's do it. First step: oversharpened Now we need some text explaining jaggies and halos. Jan
27 Jat74l : I mentioned a "masterclass" idea some time ago. I started off well but kinda died I think. Regards John
28 Shep : From the top - Psych wrote - "What are your views?" Well, Airliners.net is a site that showcases photos of aircraft - nothing more or less... The staf
29 Post contains images Linco22 : Shep, you couldn't be more right! Though I think that so much enjoyment can be had from this hobby its worth spending a little time on a forum such a
30 Psych : Thank goodness for that! I am not sure if this was Terry taking a swipe at my comments or not. But it does have a Forum for photographers,where peopl
31 FYODOR : Shep, Another argument I cann't agree with. Sorry, but as an economist I'd like to ask you - if you really think so - why do you spend resources (time
32 ThierryD : Well most points have already been mentionned; one thing however that bothers me from time to time is the high horses some people seem to be riding he
33 IL76 : He didn't say that. He's doing exactly the opposite. Aviation photography is a great hobby, and A.net is a nice site to share the hobby with others,
34 Post contains images Linco22 : Hi Thierry, would you care to give me a few examples. Its just I know my shots on here are ordinary to say the least but I do try to give advice when
35 TimdeGroot : Lots of scary people out there. Tim
36 Post contains images Ander :
37 Post contains images FYODOR : Eduard, I might said it not correctly. Well, I just wanted to say that it is nice approach - 'never mind', it helps... But it very much personal and d
38 Post contains images Psych : Hi Fyodor. Thanks for your contribution to this thread. I don't think you will have offended anyone here. I would agree that there are many who takes
39 Post contains images Wallace : For what it is worth - I want to have fun with my photography not worrying if I could make the grade. These days A.net's standards are more geared tow
40 Post contains images FYODOR : Interesting thing. As many others time by time I sell photos. Recently I dealed with design agency - they looked for some certain pics of AFLT. What
41 Post contains images Wallace : Without doubt the quality standards have risen in the two years that I was contributing to a.net, I wonder how long it will be before the next advance
42 Post contains images ThierryD : I won't give examples here as this would quickly lead the thread into the wrong direction but I can assure you that you were not intended Colin. Anyw
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