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Sometimes I Wonder If It's Even Worth It Anymore  
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Why is it that all my mediocre, average shots are getting accepted with no problems, but the shots I want in the most, the ones that I'm most creative with, my most interesting, and I think the best representation of my work and skill as a photographer are getting bounced? On top of that, I haven't sold a photo in almost a year, every month or so an offer comes in for a commercial vendor wanting my photos, and instantly when I tell them that I charge for photo usage, I never hear from them again.

What the hell am I doing wrong?

Edit: Besides the obvious being a jackass in the forums...what am I doing wrong?

[Edited 2007-04-24 20:18:53]

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingfreak From Germany, joined May 2005, 398 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
the shots I want in the most, the ones that I'm most creative with, my most interesting, and I think the best representation of my work and skill as a photographer

It's hard to comment without seeing the photos that were rejected, post them and you'll get advice.
A.net's rules definitely limit creativity, I experienced it myself with my latest nightshots that were rejected for motive because the lights of the towtruck were "ruining" the picture. It's always disappointing to get photos rejected but the most important thing is that you had fun taking them.
Just my opinion!

Florian  wave 


User currently offlineJeffM From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3266 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
what am I doing wrong?

You are taking this too seriously. Relax, shoot what you like, upload what you like, take what you get and don't sweat it. It is so much easier this way.


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4163 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
Why is it that all my mediocre, average shots are getting accepted with no problems, but the shots I want in the most, the ones that I'm most creative with, my most interesting, and I think the best representation of my work and skill as a photographer are getting bounced?

Because as most of us know a.net has a very different view of what is interesting and creative than many uploaders are having. You can accept it or move to other sites covering a broader view of aviation photography (there are some around) or make your own.

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
On top of that, I haven't sold a photo in almost a year, every month or so an offer comes in for a commercial vendor wanting my photos, and instantly when I tell them that I charge for photo usage, I never hear from them again.

Don't ask immediately for money (that's at least what i understood what you are doing when you wrote "charge for photo usage". ) The good old excahnge goods (access) for goods (photos) still works.
Don't do the photography for selling photographs, do it for fun. And yes I am part of a business with the target of selling photographs but I am still doing it because it's fun to stay around on the airport with friends and do the socialising thing.



-
User currently offlineINNflight From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 3766 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
I haven't sold a photo in almost a year, every month or so an offer comes in for a commercial vendor wanting my photos, and instantly when I tell them that I charge for photo usage, I never hear from them again.

Guess that's what a lot of people here (including myself, only one single sale via anet in 2007). It's just a matter of what customers got used to...lots of people giving away photos for the sake of publishment, free of charge.
I wouldn't pay big bucks either if there's a chance to get a similar product for free...talking about the average shots that are in the database over and over again at least.

See what Peter says, that's absolutely true!

Glad there are other ways of selling, and actually making money.
Take it easy,

Florian

[Edited 2007-04-24 20:41:01]


Jet Visuals
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4679 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
Why is it that all my mediocre, average shots are getting accepted with no problems, but the shots I want in the most, the ones that I'm most creative with, my most interesting, and I think the best representation of my work and skill as a photographer are getting bounced?

Question is, do you take them for yourself or for a.net? I got loads of photo's I love that would not be accepted here.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

Thanks for the responses, guys, good to see I'm not the only one who feels this way sometimes.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
Relax, shoot what you like, upload what you like, take what you get and don't sweat it. It is so much easier this way.

Thats a good way to look at it, but I'm trying to build a reputation as someone who shoots outside the box, and when my shots outside the box get axed, its very hard to build that reputation.

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 3):

Don't ask immediately for money (that's at least what i understood what you are doing when you wrote "charge for photo usage". ) The good old excahnge goods (access) for goods (photos) still works.

Thanks for the advice peter, maybe next time I'll try that.

Now, I'd post the full resolution for the shot I'm most dissappointed about, but since the only place its on is brand X (appealed and rejected here), I'll have to post this resized down version instead:  Wink

http://diy.despair.com/output/poster12019105.jpg


User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
Airliners.net
You'll always miss if you aim outside the box.

Haha, a good one, Eric.  Silly


User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2360 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3862 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
My thoughts EXACTLY!
It's not about aviation or photography art here! It's about mediocrity with some "ahh" shots.

Mario
LH526



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3819 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Eric, the shots you had rejected were all easy motiv rejections, along with some blurry + oversharp rejections.

You know the type of shots we accept here, so why complain?

If you went to a sushi house and tried to order a plate of spaghetti, what would you expect?

You set yourself up for failure. Just because those are the type of shots you want (funky crops of a Bonanza?) doesn't mean thats what the masses want to see.

If you want a website to showcase your work, build one. That is not the purpose of Airliners.net. If there is a huge market for "artistic" shots of General Aviation planes then people will seek out, and find, your website.


User currently offlineBoeingfreak From Germany, joined May 2005, 398 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
the shot I'm most dissappointed about

Eric, if a picture gets rejected at a.net it doesn't automatically mean that it is a bad picture. Your picture isn't bad, it just doesn't fit into a.net's strict motive criteras. Don't take it too serious, we all get rejections we sometimes don't agree with. The picture is online (not at a.net) but at jp, it is visible for all aviation fans over the world and also for possible "customers", so lean back and relax!  Wink

Cheers,
Florian  wave 


User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1667 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3741 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Florian makes a very valid point in that an image is not bad because it gets rejected. We are pretty formulaeic here, as are other sites - we just have slightly different formulae ! Take them for yourself and any accepted here or elsewhere are a bonus.
However, different is not always good either, a very common mistake particularly with newcomers to the hobby of photography.
Your Cherokee is different but I would have rejected it for motive as it is neither one thing or the other, in my opinion of course, an opinion that only counts for anything here.

As to photo sales, I have not had any for weeks and I can never predict what will sell and what won't. I actually sell more of GA than airliners as less people take them !
Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineCalgaryBill From Canada, joined May 2006, 686 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
On top of that, I haven't sold a photo in almost a year, every month or so an offer comes in for a commercial vendor wanting my photos, and instantly when I tell them that I charge for photo usage, I never hear from them again.

As mentioned above, too many wannabe's are giving it away free for anyone but serious pro's to make any money at this.

Quoting Graphic (Thread starter):
What the hell am I doing wrong?

The only thing you're guilty of is submitting one type of content to a different type of website.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
Thats a good way to look at it, but I'm trying to build a reputation as someone who shoots outside the box, and when my shots outside the box get axed, its very hard to build that reputation.

I think Mick used the best word, "formulaeic." Set up your own website (it's cheap and fairly easy) and, as people get to know your work, point them there for the funky stuff.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 9):
If you went to a sushi house and tried to order a plate of spaghetti, what would you expect?

Good analogy!!!
B


User currently offlineWakeTurbulence From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3689 times:

Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 12):
As mentioned above, too many wannabe's are giving it away free for anyone but serious pro's to make any money at this.

Overstatement of the century! I just cashed a $2000 check and I am not even close to a pro. The photo was taken with my 300D and 70-200f/4L. As Mic said, sales come and go, just depending on luck. As for sales I always ask first if they are will to pay or trade other goods. For the most part I have gotten a positive response. Good luck in the future. I try to shoot just for fun and any money I make is just that much bigger of a bonus.
-Matt



Jetwash Images - Feel the Heat!!!
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 13):
Overstatement of the century! I just cashed a $2000 check and I am not even close to a pro.

 cheeky 

I think your sum is a gross exaggeration... Nobody in their right mind would pay $2000 for a photo!!!!! I dont believe you.  duck 


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Since you all mention the my-own-website mantra, I guess I should mention that I'm way ahead of you, the domains been registered for about a year, but the staff has been quite a bit busy so not much has been done. What I want to know is, why do we have to go to such great lengths to do something that should be a no-brainer? Out-of-the-box photos are the ones people want to see, and by and large the ones that people want to shoot as well, so why must we feel so limited?

User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3643 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Out-of-the-box photos are the ones people want to see, and by and large the ones that people want to shoot as well, so why must we feel so limited?

Says who? You?

More people click on side on, run of the mill commercial airliners than do general aviation shots that are "artistic."

Don't confuse what YOU want to see with what others want to see. You might get a few people agreeing with you on these forums but the numbers don't lie. A sunny side on AA 757 in SEA is going to do more business than a close up of a Piper door in Glisstening Tip, North Dakota.

It isn't personal, it is fact.

I look forward to seeing your website.


User currently offlineWalter2222 From Belgium, joined Sep 2005, 1293 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3631 times:

Quoting Boeingfreak (Reply 1):
It's always disappointing to get photos rejected but the most important thing is that you had fun taking them.

 checkmark 

Yesterday I received an e-mail from a spotter whom I had briefly met at Leeuwarden last year (during the arrival days of the Blue Angels). While not going into too much detail, he mentioned that he had lost all his shots from that day...so I offered him to choose some of my shots (they must have been nearly identical, since we stood next to each other). For me, to help out another aviation enthusiast with a couple of pictures is more rewarding than a couple of hundred hits on an accepted shot in the database... Just my thoughts...

Best regards,

Walter



canon 340d ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l is usm - ...
User currently offlineEadster From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2216 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

The main problem here, is the attempt to get "creative shots" accepted. We all know its harder to get them accepted. Try every now and then with creative shots. Sometimes they work, other times they don't.

Simple.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 11):
As to photo sales, I have not had any for weeks and I can never predict what will sell and what won't. I actually sell more of GA than airliners as less people take them !

Same for me. Majority of my shots are GA aircraft. They are easier to take, and not only more popular according to the responses I get, but sell so much easier! A lot of GA aircraft owners love to see their birds on the net. Hearing from them, in regards to the shot or them telling me some stories is worth more than a sale.

Then again, I see that as more of a reward than seeing my picture in some magazine. Either are nice though!

Quoting JeffM (Reply 2):
You are taking this too seriously. Relax, shoot what you like, upload what you like, take what you get and don't sweat it. It is so much easier this way.

Yep. Sooner you learn to deal with it like this, you'll be ok. Took me a while. Anything that I like, that gets killed here, its on my own site, or soon will be.


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 16):
Says who? You?

Me and about 100% of the photographers I've talked to in person. Go figure.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3939 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

Hi all,

My personal feeling is that the site's acceptance rules in the motive/composition fields are not terribly restricting at all, partly because I often instinctively agree with them and partly, I'm afraid, because I've come to think according to the a.net book, especially for the standard fare shots. Not that I'm proud of that.

However, I do love to upload shots that I think are somewhat creative, sometimes breaking the rules, and my acceptance rate for them is actually quite good.
When a unusual composition is well motivated and somewhat, I believe the screeners are actually quite willing to accept it.

If these shots are rejected, I'm in many cases prepared to accept that they're actually no good, especially when giving them another look a couple of weeks later. Overestimating your own work is only human.

So when critizing motive rejections, I think it's best to start with other people's motive rejections as posted in this forum.
I see the odd picture that I feel should have been accepted, but in most cases I agree with the motive rejections, including the one you posted, Eric, I'm sorry.

If you generally agree with other people's motive rejections, perhaps your own arty shots are not so great. If you always disagree with the other guys' rejections, then maybe it's time to look for somewhere else for your shots.

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5693 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 16):
More people click on side on, run of the mill commercial airliners than do general aviation shots that are "artistic."

Don't confuse what YOU want to see with what others want to see. You might get a few people agreeing with you on these forums but the numbers don't lie. A sunny side on AA 757 in SEA is going to do more business than a close up of a Piper door in Glisstening Tip, North Dakota.

Interesting tho that the "Top rated", "Photographers Choice" or indeed the "Editors Choice" are rarely sunny side on AA 757 or BA 320's! Indeed the top of an given day are often not "A.net photos"

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3571 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

And how many of those top shots are "artistic" crops of a GA subject?

The shots you are referring to are dynamic. Mil jets on afterburners, dramatic sunsets, unusual sights, nighttime cockpit shots, stuff like that.

Theres a huge difference. If you can't see forest for the trees, well, I don't know what to say.

Perhaps if Eric cared to show the rejections we could all be on the same page for this discussion.

I have seen the shots, and I understand what Eric was trying to do, but they wouldn't be that popular and they don't fit the type of shots that this website caters to. There is nothing wrong with that, we cannot be all things to all people.

For the record, I am one of the biggest champions of pushing for less than perfect quality and or motiv shots to get accepted, especially if they are "big hitters." I scroll hundreds of shots every day, not including the 1,000 I screen every week. This team has an excellent handle on what is hot and what is not. We aren't dumb. We don't reject things for "no reason." And, if there is ever any doubt, it gets sent to Johan. After all, it is his website.


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5693 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3566 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Royal,

My comments were based on the larger discussion of A.net and creative shots, rather than Erics current issue, I did not edit or change the quote as others have been crucified for that in the past.

If you still think I don't get it well fine,

Sure you few have a much better idea of what is right for Anet, but all discussion seems to boil down to an our way or the highway!

Cheers.

[Edited 2007-04-25 04:30:36]


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9628 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3557 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Well, I thought this thread was about Eric's rejected photos.

No one has said my way or the highway. We are trying to make a better experience for our customers (photographers). Recent changes would include more use of personal notes and the discontinuation of just using a quality rejection, as it is too ambiguous for the photographer. As much as some people want to blame the screening team for their woes, we do listen, and we do try to make adjustments. We know the queue is long. We lost our two biggest screeners. Mike (AirNikon) passed away and Colin (Kereu) retired, for health reasons. The Head Screeners have set "minimums." You either meet them or you don't. Bottom line is, we are not standing still, regardless of what certain people want to write and/or believe.

However, there is only so much room to give. There are certain types of photographs that will never be accepted here. If those are the types of shots you care to take, more power to you. Just don't get upset when we don't accept them.

Airliners.net is the best of the best. That is why people work so hard to get their photos accepted here. But, there are standards.


25 Scottieprecord : That's a clever graphic... But if you've found a site that accepts those types of photos, why do you complain about this site not not accepting them?
26 Post contains images Prat : For what it's worth I've had more positive experiences with my photos being screened in the past 6 months than in the entire year prior. Even so much
27 Psyops : I jes' don't get it. What is the big frickin' hairy deal if you don't get a shot accepted here? Has the universe been re-oriented to rotate around air
28 Graphic : I think Prat summed it up nicely: I dunno, maybe I'm just getting stressed out about finals/housing situation/job situation and it vented here.
29 CalgaryBill : Congratulations. But just because you got one big check doesn't mean there's enough money in this gig to make a business of it, nor does it discount
30 Sulman : There's a cadre of photographers (rhymes with scarebeanspillages) that have done pretty much what you're talking about, Eric. There's nothing to stop
31 Post contains images INNflight : That's quite spot on I believe, it's not that there are heavenly stunners rejected just for the sake of being a tad dark, blurry, out of center or wh
32 Post contains images Halcyon : In all reality, A.net shots are getting more boring lately...perhaps just because I've been here so long, but I never bother looking past the first pa
33 Sulman : I think you've answered your own question. I'm not convinced a.net does get 'more boring' - this complaint arises every so often on the forum. I thin
34 Post contains images INNflight : well, there are side-shots that are 1) difficult to take, and 2) beautiful I do not think it is side-shots vs. creative. They can be a hell of diffic
35 Halcyon : Darn good point, and too! I suppose that we all start wanting more creative shots after a bit, but if A.net does not fulfill, one can always go elsew
36 Lnglive1011yyz : In all honesty -- some people have given you the best advice so far.. Don't take this too seriously. There's no doubt in any of our minds that this w
37 Post contains images J.mo : I tried doing this also. I was trying to shoot the rare stuff at SLC and upload them, with some difficulty. But then I see a frequent uploader throw
38 Clickhappy : But hey, he was a friend of the site and I wasn't. What does this mean? Are you saying we gave someone better treatment becuase he is a "friend of the
39 Post contains links and images Graphic : Am I still being too optimistic?
40 Post contains images Scottieprecord : I think so... The quality is definitely there in my opinion, but it looks backlit. Plus, the prop is cut off... But the motive rejection seems certai
41 UnattendedBag : Does that fall into your catagory of 'artistic'? I find nothing artistic about it. It is the front half of a small aircraft and nothing about that ph
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