Beechcraft From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 808 posts, RR: 52 Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3600 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
Hi all,
maybe it´s time for another of these Masterclass topics, this time focusing on the effect of shutter speeds on the photo.
Probably most of this will be interesting to beginners only, as it is mostly quite basic info, but maybe even some of the "oldtimers" here can learn something...
So, share your experience, e.g. which speeds do you use to create motion, or prop blur, which speeds do you have to use for different focal ranges in order to get sharp shots, how do you set your camera, what has it got to do with the aperture, etc...
Remember, this should be a learning environment, there are no dumb questions
1 Dazbo5: For me, I shoot anything with rotary parts, ie helicopters or props at between 1/50 and 1/100. Certainly nothing faster than 1/100 unless its moving f
2 EK20: In sports mode what would you recommend for motorsports?
3 Dendrobatid: My general philosophy is to use the highest shutter speed that I can get away with for jets and the lowest I can get away with for props. The reciproc
4 Viv: Mick, I do exactly the same. With stabilised lenses, I can usually get by with 1/400th at 400mm for jets. This was taken at 1/80th: View Large View M
5 Psych: Well done Denis for launching a good thread like this - too few of such things these days. I have to say I still choose Aperture Priority as my 'defau
6 ThierryD: Thanks for opening the class Denis! As a standard I also use the reciprocal of the focal length as guidance to set the shutter speed but as already me
7 Monteycarlos: This might sound a bit dumb, but what effect do varying shutter speeds have on overall image sharpness?
8 StealthZ: Something to remember is crop factor, the effect that this has on what you perceive as "focal length" also affects the influence of lens shake on the
9 Rotate: Shutter Speed? Shutter Speed for me allways goes vice versa with Aperture --- > I am more the Aperture Guy ... Well, the Shutter Speed is really not t
10 StealthZ: Robin makes a very good point but I would expand on that a bit, should be 2 books, one on photography, someone like John Hedgcoe, Michael Freeman are
11 JeffM: That's not quite true. You lens is only so long, your crop is just how much of the image hits the sensor. Nothing more. There is NO increase in focal
12 Odo: Well, yes, but the effect is ~same as you'd have a longer lens. I don't see people taking lots of sharp images with digicams that have 70mm lens at t
13 JeffM: Well that is because the actual focal length is 70mm. Your comparison of a p&s compared to a 35mm body and lens is a poor one. Do you know what focal
14 Monteycarlos: Some people like to learn a new hobby. I don't understand why some people take the attitude that people who admit they don't know something, but want
15 StealthZ: This could get quite technical so I will try and avoid that.* Yes, Jeff I know the Focal length is THE Focal length and nothing short of rewriting th
16 JeffM: That is where you make your mistake. Your print size makes absolutely no difference. All your 300mm lens is doing is allowing light to fall onto a su
17 StealthZ: And I did, have redone the math and will concede defeat... don't anyone tell Jeff I said that. Back to the thread concept, shutter speed. Considering
19 Rotate: Not sure, if you read my whole post, but there is defenetely some help in it ..... - Just try to read through it and you might find it .... Robin
20 Monteycarlos: Yeah. I read it. But it was all undone by the comment... So I ask you, what gives you the right to make such a comment? The last time I checked, you
21 EMA747: I have to agree with Monteycarlos a bit here. Some of the comments come across as a bit arrogant and offputting to the new people on reading this like
22 Viv: It is hard to understand. Maybe it's because they think that a good camera will turn them into a good photographer? Or are they just too lazy or stup
23 Rotate: Guys Whatever! I just sayed that it is smart to read a book and or the manual about the thing you hold in your hands - Thats it! Call it arrogant or w
24 Monteycarlos: Back to the point: A lot of people swear by light meters and using them to create the correct exposure. I personally haven't used one since I intend t
25 Viv: With good reason - a light meter can turn a good shot into a great one. For an accurate incident light reading, just hold up the meter in the same li
26 Monteycarlos: Not having seen or used one, do you set by aperture or shutter?
27 Dazbo5: I wouldn't say regularly! That's one reason I love digital, you can take a few shots and choose the best of the bunch. This is one example taken at B
29 Monteycarlos: So, anyone else have any advice on light meters? Worth the money? How about for other styles of photography such as landscapes with varying levels of
30 Fergulmcc: Second that!! No Photographer should be without one!! If you can't afford one then a simple Grey Card will do the trick and improve your shots. Searc
31 Monteycarlos: Thanks Fergul. You've always been more than helpful. I think I have seen this forum before so I will go back and take a look. CalgaryBill recommended
32 JeffM: What is amusing is that you don't understand the concept of "experience" and it's effect on any skill. He asked a question didn't he? "why do people
33 TransIsland: I'm surprised that heat haze hasn't been mentioned as a factor for deciding shutter speed yet; it's probably my main consideration. This was taken at
34 Fergulmcc: I'll accept that I am not the most experienced photographer here, but I am failing to see how heat haze will effect shutter speed. Using a high shutt
36 Acontador: Tell me something about heat haze! Clearly, the less hot air between the object and the lens the less heat haze.
37 TransIsland: Heat haze is essentially a movement in the air. At a high shutter speed, you record little to none of this movement, whereas at a slow shutter speed
38 AMSA: I must agree with Rotate in some point. It's very true that there are people who buys expensive/quality equipment (mainly lens and cams) and don't kno
39 Boeingfreak: Errr.... I do not consider myself as a pro but my experience is that the blur and the distortions remain, no matter if the shutterspeed is slow or ve
40 Lanas: Hi guys First of all, many thanks to Denis for opening such a valuable thread. And second, thanks to all of you guys for such an amazing feedback! I u
41 Boeingfreak: Yes, the result is the same. The highest currently is Olympus with a 2x crop if I'm correctly informed. It doesn't affect the image quality at all, i
42 Fergulmcc: Yes but does heat haze not cause distortion? Therefore no amount of shutter speed will eliminate that. I mean if you shoot something in the summer wh
43 StealthZ: I am with Fergul, Jeff and others on this. Yes, heat haze is partly movement of the air but not much and not very fast. What does the damage to your p
44 Monteycarlos: Because the text you quoted clearly indicates that. I find it bizarre that in the past you were so willing to help people improve themselves with thr
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 4075 posts, RR: 52 Reply 45, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2972 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 44): Now admittedly, I feel the same way when some school kid rocks up at MEL with a 5D and a Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS. But I also think that its great that he is learning to use it at such a young age and trying his best to be a good photographer. It seems a little silly to me that people should put others down, when really they have all been there before.
This may be part of the cynicism that some display, and not just Jeff or Robin(or me)
Don't think any of us have a problem with the kid(whatever their age) with the fancy equipment, if and it is a big IF they want to and are prepared to learn.
The cynicism comes from being told by the guy with the fancy new 5D and white lens that your 20D/30D is no longer capable of taking good photos.. and this has happened to me and others at SYD and on other photoshoots.
I was told a little while back that you could no longer upload to A.net unless you had a 20D as a minimum preferably a 1D, Oh and of course L glass... pretty shattering to a financially strapped guy with a mere 10D(at the time) and Sigma lenses.
So I admitted defeat and quit the hobby... hell no! I got out my old D30 and a 15year old 100-300 F5.6 lens and shot pics and uploaded... there are several on line here, you pick them!
It is not about equipment it is about the craft.. you can get some tips here, you can get some more from some of the excellent books available and here's a thought, there are some wonderful photo course as well.
There is also little substitute for getting out there and doing it.. note what works and what doesn't, with digital you no longer have to pay (and wait) for processing to see the results, hell you no longer have to take notes.. the camera will take more notes than you will ever need.
Rant over
Cheers
Chris
Of course old planes are safe, how do you think they got to be old?
JeffM From United States, joined May 2005, 3247 posts, RR: 58 Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2963 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 44): I find it bizarre that in the past you were so willing to help people improve themselves with threads like this, Masks....again (by JeffM Apr 21 2006 in Aviation Photography), but lately its just been cynicism. I respect you as a photographer Jeff, but am a little sad that you're not setting a higher example.
I'll be honest with you. I could give a rat's ass about setting any examples, let's get that out of the way.
You missed the point about you feeling Robin had something you or some other beginner don't have.... Experience, and it's effects. There is something we know, that beginners don't....and it takes years to learn each little piece of it, it's not something you can make a list of and post in a silly thread on the internet either.
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 45): It is not about equipment it is about the craft..
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 45): There is also little substitute for getting out there and doing it.. note what works and what doesn't,
CalgaryBill From Canada, joined May 2006, 686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2944 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 26): Not having seen or used one, do you set by aperture or shutter?
Someone beat me to it, but you can set by either. The light meter has "aperature" and "shutter" modes, so you set the one you want (ie: in the spirit of this thread, you pick a shutter speed you want to get prop blur) and the light meter tells you what aperature to use. An ambient light meter tells you the settings for the light source, reflected meters (ie, the one in your camera) are influenced by the image's brightness/darkness, which is why you have to overexpose for a snowy scene.
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 29):
How about for other styles of photography such as landscapes with varying levels of light across the whole shot?
There's a method out there called the Zone System which I believe was developed by Ansel Adams. It is a technical approach to finding an exposure that works for both highlights and shadows, trying to maintain detail in both (if dynamic range allows). It's kind of tedious, so better for landscape or still life work. There are a few books out there on it, I have "The Practical Zone System" by Johnson and it's pretty good.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 39 Reply 48, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2911 times:
Quoting JeffM (Reply 46): Experience, and it's effects.
Jeff, I never diagreed with that at all. If you look back, my gripe with Rotate is with his criticism of people getting out there and doing it themselves. In esscence, you've done more to prove my point of why we should not criticize people who are out there doing exactly what you suggest... getting experience.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 47): the Zone System which I believe was developed by Ansel Adams
He has a book about this doesn't he? I think I have seen the name before when I was at Border's one morning. Might go back and take a look this Saturday. Thanks again for your help Bill.
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 45): The cynicism comes from being told by the guy with the fancy new 5D and white lens that your 20D/30D is no longer capable of taking good photos.. and this has happened to me and others at SYD and on other photoshoots.
I was told a little while back that you could no longer upload to A.net unless you had a 20D as a minimum preferably a 1D, Oh and of course L glass... pretty shattering to a financially strapped guy with a mere 10D(at the time) and Sigma lenses.
Chris, I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, the last person who told me my equipment was crap wasn't some kid, but indeed a certain member of this thread. My response was the same as yours.
Dendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1338 posts, RR: 68 Reply 49, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2889 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 48): He has a book about this doesn't he? I think I have seen the name before when I was at Border's one morning. Might go back and take a look this Saturday. Thanks again for your help Bill.
OMG, Moteycarlos, you make me feel very old (LOL)
Ansell Adams had a book about the zone system. Much of his incredible work was done in the 1930s and 1940s though the zone system he developed (pun intended) is valid today. He died in 1984 when no-one could have dreamed of digital.
Kind of tedious as put by Calgary Bill is an understatement and the zone system is more suited to ponderous slow, large format work, landscape and still life, tripod work- not really suited to aviation.
Treat yourself and go and look at Adams work, you already know it except by name. I went to SFO a couple of years ago to visit his museum - and it was shut!
CalgaryBill From Canada, joined May 2006, 686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 50, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2885 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 48): He has a book about this doesn't he? I think I have seen the name before when I was at Border's one morning. Might go back and take a look this Saturday.
Be careful of stuff written directly by Adams, it can be really dry and really technical - even if you "get" what he's selling, you may fall asleep before you ever get the chance to apply what you learn! Other writers, or books written by Adams and edited by others sometimes make more sense to us mortals. Three of his books though are excellent - "The Camera," "The Negative" and "The Print" together present a decent foundation in photography. Obviously they were written in the pre-digital era, but most of the principles are the same regardless of media.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 39 Reply 51, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2862 times:
Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 49): Kind of tedious as put by Calgary Bill is an understatement and the zone system is more suited to ponderous slow, large format work, landscape and still life, tripod work- not really suited to aviation.
Hehe right what I really want it for. I only shoot planes because I work at an airport and get good access. Landscapes are where my passion is. Hoping to get to Antarctica before it melts so I can get my dream shot.
Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 49): Treat yourself and go and look at Adams work, you already know it except by name. I went to SFO a couple of years ago to visit his museum - and it was shut!
Maybe when DJ go tran-pac I'll get over there and see it.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 50): Three of his books though are excellent - "The Camera," "The Negative" and "The Print" together present a decent foundation in photography. Obviously they were written in the pre-digital era, but most of the principles are the same regardless of media.
I believe I have seen 'The Camera' before. I will go take a look though as it will be well worthwhile.
Sulman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1938 posts, RR: 46 Reply 52, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2849 times:
To reiterate what Mick says, I struggle on jets even using the reciprocal rule of thumb. I've lost more shots to motion blur than any other issue - for me faster is better; perhaps I just don't have steady hands!
1/250 - 1/400 are the speeds I use for props. It helps that these things move alot slower. A big shock for me when I first photographed fast jets was just how fast they moved in the viewfinder - a world apart from airliners, and I have to say, totally thrilling to try and capture them!
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 4075 posts, RR: 52 Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Quoting Sulman (Reply 52): I struggle on jets even using the reciprocal rule of thumb. I've lost more shots to motion blur than any other issue - for me faster is better; perhaps I just don't have steady hands!
James,
Get along to a motor race meeting, not F1 or anything stupid but a regional or club meeting. In fact the smaller meetings are ideal for a number of reasons.- Cheaper, less crowded, and you can get closer to the action.
You may not like car racing but that isn't the point( with my motor racing fanatic hat on I can hope to make another convert) but what you will get is plenty of target practice, following fast moving subjects. Sure they may not be as fast as the military jets but they are much closer so the angular velocity(and that is the important part) is similar and sometimes much more. Another advantage with 20+ cars and each race being several laps there is plenty of panning and following practice to be had... and lots of mistakes to be made but that is part of the fun.
Dendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1338 posts, RR: 68 Reply 54, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2818 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
Stealth talks a lot of sense above, I hate to admit it, but he does.
There is little in photography where the old saying of practice makes perfect is more important.
Your posture as you pan is also important. Keep your hips paralell to the plane of the object movement, parallel to it and keep moving steadily. Don't stop as you press the shutter - perhaps the commonest fault as the viewfinder goes blank.
Mick Bajcar
AMSA From Portugal, joined Apr 2006, 37 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2802 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 44): Well AMSA, that is their problem, isn't it? It should not concern you, me or anyone else. The fact is that they are probably out there trying to improve and that is the main thing that some people tend to be forgetting. And it goes along the same premise of this threads creation. It is all learning.
You're absolutely right.
If people buys expensive equipment with the goal of learning and being interested in photography, even if they haven't touched on any digital camera before, it's a fact that we must have in consideration.
But I just feel sorry for those who buys expensive equip. just because they've read on the Internet that this or that lens/cam are the best and it's worthy to buy, when they don't even understand the exposure issue, for example.
Depending, of course, in what you are trying to achieve, right?
Quoting AMSA (Reply 38): first of all I don't have a IS lens (Sigma 70-300 APO DG Macro), which makes pretty impossible to get low shutterspeeds such as 1/80s and lower.
Difficult, but not impossible
Quoting JeffM (Reply 35): Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 34):
I am failing to see how heat haze will effect shutter speed.
I'm with you on that one......
Same here...
j
I do not shoot pictures, I just shoot rejections...AirTeamImages
Diezel From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 623 posts, RR: 12 Reply 57, posted (2 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2583 times:
When taking pictures at slow shutter speed, specially when panning, it's not a bad idea to put your camera in the clack-clack-clack-clack mode instead of the clack mode. It will increase your chance of getting a sharp and well framed picture.
Agill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 949 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (2 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2565 times:
Quoting AMSA (Reply 55):
But I just feel sorry for those who buys expensive equip. just because they've read on the Internet that this or that lens/cam are the best and it's worthy to buy, when they don't even understand the exposure issue, for example.
Why? I mean it's their money. An expensive camera hardly will stop them from learning, and a lot of people like to buy top of the line stuff because they are as interested in technology as in the hobby in itself, (and then there are the kind of people who buy stuff on ebay while being rediculusly drunk and end up with a bad hangover and a new camera... Like me )
Lanas From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 964 posts, RR: 21 Reply 59, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Hi guys
I´ll take this thread to ask a question that I believe doesn´t deserve opening a new thread.
I want to know how the size of the sensor affects the depth of field. I´ve heard some people talk about it, but I don´t know actually how it is. Could someone enlighten me?
Thanks!
Cheers
Lanas.-
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." J.R.R. Tolkien
Fergulmcc From Ireland, joined Oct 2004, 1909 posts, RR: 59 Reply 61, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2154 times:
Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 42): All I can say is, proove me wrong. Good luck!!
Quoting TransIsland (Reply 37): If I get a chance to go out to the airport this weekend, I may try and take a few "samples," but I can't find any right now where I shot the same scene at two different shutter speeds and kept the heat hazed photo.
No worries Transisland! and thanks for comming back on that. I just didn't think higher shutter speeds would eliminate heat haze. You learn something new everyday. The only way that heat haze can be eliminated/reduced is by getting closer to your subject. If I am correct some of our fellow photographers in OZ don't shoot during the mid day sun as the shots would be destoyed with haze, rather they shoot in the early morning and early evening.
Quoting StealthZ (Reply 64): Not everyone is big enough to do that!!
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 39 Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2000 times:
Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 65): rather they shoot in the early morning and early evening.
Yeah except as I learnt, you leave yourself open to contrast rejections due to the sunrise/sunset making the fuselage 'not a perfect white'. My solution is to only shoot aircraft that don't have a white fuselage.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 4075 posts, RR: 52 Reply 68, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1997 times:
Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 65): If I am correct some of our fellow photographers in OZ don't shoot during the mid day sun as the shots would be destoyed with haze,
And that generally means before 8:30!!
Of course old planes are safe, how do you think they got to be old?
Flyfisher1976 From United States, joined Jan 2005, 796 posts, RR: 3 Reply 69, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1859 times:
Quoting Rotate (Reply 9): I still cant understand why people buy DSLRs and dont know Shit about Photography = If you buy a car (even a shit one for 500,-- EUR) you normally should have a driving license ??!!!
If you take a few shots with a DSLR and don't know "shit about photography" nobody dies, you just erase the CF and start again...no big loss. Sorry, but this is a rather poor analogy.
If you've got the $$ and the time, why not buy yourself a "real" camera instead of farting around with a point and shoot?
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