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Help With A Starfighter C/N  
User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

Hello!

I wondered if anyone in the forums could help me with finding the construction number for the Lockheed Starfighter Luftwaffe 22+65. I checked Google and it didn't help me, wondering if anyone has the complete info list of the Luftwaffe Starfighters with c/ns.



Thanks in advance,

David

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUA935 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Lockheed F-104G C/N 7146

Yes I have a full C/N list.

Do you want the full list or do you just need certain C/N's?

[Edited 2007-06-17 23:21:42]


Live every second like you mean it
User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

I asked if anyone had the full list so it would be for sure having this particular airframe included.

Thank you very much Simon, that is all!

Best regards,
David


User currently offlineDlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 544 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

For most military aircraft cns, try Scramble first at: http://www.scramble.nl/milbase.htm (one key, German serial numbers should be entered as xx+xx).

For F-104s, Joe Baugher's pages are excellent: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104.html In particular, his F-104G page is what I used to get the details necessary to fix all the F-104 listings in a.net: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_16.html

Your Starfighter should be entered as:
Type: Messerschmitt F-104G Starfighter
Generic Type: Messerschmitt F-104 Starfighter
Reg: 2265
cn: 683-7146

I have broken the F-104s up by manufacturer and this one was built by Messerschmitt, not Lockheed!


User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Yikes! That's a lot of info, many thanks David!

The picture will be uploaded with that info.


Regards,
Dave


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting Dlednicer (Reply 3):
Type: Messerschmitt F-104G Starfighter
Generic Type: Messerschmitt F-104 Starfighter

This sounds so ridiculous. No one ever called a German-built Starfighter like that. The F-104G is a Lockheed aircraft, no matter who nailed it together!
Also, it's very annoying that this prevents you from calling up all Starfighter photos in a single mouseclick.

But don't blame David (Dlednicer), I know he didn't invent this.
So, for the powers that be:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frosch


Messerschmitt jet fighter

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Cenciotti


Lockheed jet fighter

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBrianW999 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 312 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 5):
This sounds so ridiculous. No one ever called a German-built Starfighter like that. The F-104G is a Lockheed aircraft, no matter who nailed it together!

I have to agree with that. The F104's assembled in Germany were surely done so under licence from Lockheed? It's still a Lockheed F104 even if built/assembled by another company.

It's a bit like my Vauxhall Vectra car. It was built in Europe but it's still called a Vauxhall, not an Opel.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 6):
It's a bit like my Vauxhall Vectra car. It was built in Europe but it's still called a Vauxhall, not an Opel.

It's an Opel design, marketed in the UK as a Vauxhall...

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 5):
The F-104G is a Lockheed aircraft, no matter who nailed it together!

Actually, this is beside my point. It's not about logic. My point is simply that the F-104G is commenly called a Lockheed aircraft, by anyone, and this is much easier for everyone.

The F-104S version of the Starfighter is generally referred to as an Aeritalia aircraft, and respecting that is fine with me. Westland-built Sikorsky helicopters are referred to as Westland aircraft, and respecting that is fine with me.

But European-built F-86Ks, Starfighters and F-16s just have never been referred to as 'Fiat F-86Ks', 'Messerschmitt F-104s' and 'Fokker F-16s', not even by these manufacturers. If the licensee doesn't bother to change the manufacturer name, why does A.net?

Spitfires were built by a dozen manufacturers I suspect- are the database editors going to spend their precious time to change Supermarine Spitfires to Westland Spitfres, etc? It just isn't going to work.

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 544 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2111 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Its a difficult situation. Starfighters were produced by Lockheed, Fokker, Messerschmitt, MBB, Aeritalia, Canadair and Mitusbishi. The Lockheed and Canadair ones are typically labeled as such. The Aeritalia ones are sometimes labeled as Aeritalia. The Fokker, Messerschmitt, MBB and Mitsubishi ones are rarely labeled as such. Where does one draw a line?

The same applies to F-86s (NAA, Canadair, Commonwealth, Fiat and Mitsubishi), F-16s (GD, Lockheed, Lockheed Martin, Fokker, SABCA, TUSAS, Korea Aerospace, Samsung) and F-4s (McDonnell, McDonnell Douglas and Mitsubishi), which are all listed accordingly in the database. On the other hand, all the B-17s and B-29s in the database are listed as Boeing, while some were built by Douglas, Bell and Martin. What to do?


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Quoting Dlednicer (Reply 8):
On the other hand, all the B-17s and B-29s in the database are listed as Boeing, while some were built by Douglas, Bell and Martin. What to do?

I think it depends on whether or not there is a record of which frames were build where, if it is unclear stick to the original manufacturer.

b.t.w. Gloster Meteor's and Hawker Hunter's where also build by Fokker.
So you guys still got some work to do. Big grin



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineSkidmarks From UK - England, joined Dec 2004, 7121 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Well, I personally think the aircraft type should reflect the design bureaux ie. Lockheed, North American, Supermarine etc, and not the actual builder. Taking the builder idea to extreme lengths, something like the Spitfire, which was built by back-street carpenters and metal shops all over britain, makes it almost impossible to credit manufacture.

Stick to basics and maybe add the builder to the notes.

Andy  old 



Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2098 times:

Who to name as an aircraft's manufacturer? I can see it's a bit arbitrary sometimes. But to go around this by listing every airframe in the database under the company that actually built it - just assembled maybe? - is a massive and counter-productive undertaking.To stick with Willem's example: Fokker also built Bucker Bestmanns, Aradado Ar 196s, Hawker Sea Furies and Saab Scandias Wink

Not only does a Fokker Ar 196 or a Bell B-17 sound ridiculous, but the database is falling apart. I have 11 pictures of F-84 Thunderjet / Thunderstreak / Thunderflash fighters in the database. Ten of them fall under the 'Republic F-84' generic name. But one is now listed as a 'General Motors F-84F', and will not come up under a 'Republic F-84(F)' search. It's effectively being orphanized.

Quoting Dlednicer (Reply 8):
Where does one draw a line?

Simply follow common practice. Some manufacturers tend to attach their own name to aircraft they build under license. When this is widely recognized, ie Aeritalia F-104S or Westland Wessex, fine. Of course there are some dubious cases - Canadair or Northrop F-5? Well, I guess that's were the database editors have to make a decision. But in most cases, an aircraft is known under its designer's name no matter who actually built an airframe, and I strongly feel that the database should recognize that as a leading principle.

Thanks for your e-mail, David - good to hear and see you made it to Datangshan Wink

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 544 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2094 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Personally, I'd like to see the Generic Types be the original design authority, with the Types be the actual manufacturer.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 11):
Thanks for your e-mail, David - good to hear and see you made it to Datangshan

Thanks! 9Gb in 5 hours - a new record for me. I had to hide my Wolverine hard disk next to the right main tire of this airplane and write SD cards to it while I shot the back rows:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Max Bryansky - Russian AviaPhoto Team



A note to anyone going to Datanghan: the price of a taxi to take you there from central Beijing, wait and then take you back should be Y400 or less.


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2062 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 11):
To stick with Willem's example: Fokker also built Bucker Bestmanns, Aradado Ar 196s, Hawker Sea Furies and Saab Scandias

That's true, guess there are pros and cons for both view points.
If we stick the Designers instead of Manufactures all Fairchild F-27 will become Fokker's again and I still think we should not go that way.
To take the Designer as leading fact over the Manufacturer is a slippery road anyway because aircraft's are seldom designed by one company.
For example Fokker (since I am involved anyway) made use of risk taking partners who also did a part of the design process so you would end up with something like: Fokker/NLR/TU-Delft/Bombardier/Dasa F100 Big grin
Or the E-190 series who did not design a single wing rivet would become Embraer/NLR E-190
and so on..........

I am still in favor of Manufacturer as the most simple solution, it just takes some time to get used to it.

Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):
If we stick the Designers instead of Manufactures all Fairchild F-27 will become Fokker's again and I still think we should not go that way.

Neither do I, everybody calls it a Fairchild F-27 and that's fine. Just follow common practice, which in most cases does exist.

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2043 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):
For example Fokker (since I am involved anyway) made use of risk taking partners who also did a part of the design process so you would end up with something like: Fokker/NLR/TU-Delft/Bombardier/Dasa F100

Hey, don't insult our nice little Fokkers!  Wink

I can understand the whole issue but am not in favor of putting the actual manufacturer as prime name with th aircraft type; as Peter said this takes apart the database and makes searches of particular aircraft much more difficult. Imagine how you'd call Airbusses; there are a dozen major manufacturer companies involved...

But why not introduce a third reference; keep the 2 we already have with the original (main) manufacturer and a third to list all the secondary (licence) manufacturers?

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
Hey, don't insult our nice little Fokkers!

You know I will be the last to do so Big grin

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
Peter said this takes apart the database and makes searches of particular aircraft much more difficult.

Yes and No but I do agree the search page needs some enhancement.
If you do a search on F27's via the search page A/C drop down menu you get both Fokker as well as Fairchild in one go and nothing is torn apart.
We just need the same feature for Lockheed F104's and Fokker F104's............... and so on.
Problem solved.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
But why not introduce a third reference; keep the 2 we already have with the original (main) manufacturer and a third to list all the secondary (licence) manufacturers?

A very good idea Thierry and together with the search page enhancement it would improve the search possibilities quite a bit.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
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