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What's Wrong With This Motive?  
User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4279 times:
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Has the era of helpful personal messages already gone again!?  Confused

Got this one rejected for motive:
http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...s/big/20070714_vtjebLFPB230607.jpg
not sure what's wrong with it though; without wanting to brag and trying to stay as objective as possible I do believe that it's one of the better and most interesting shots uploaded from the Paris Air Show 2007 so far.

Thierry


"Go ahead...make my day"
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOpso1 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 527 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

I like it- it is a good reference photo- something different from the usual 6 of the same taken by a line of photographers as an aircraft leaves the runway. Cutting off the nosewheel doors didn't help and you can see from the Air France banner at the bottom left that it need a little CW rotation.

OPSO1


User currently offlineWakeTurbulence From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1296 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

I think it is the nosewheel doors as well.
-Matt



Jetwash Images - Feel the Heat!!!
User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4236 times:
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Quoting Opso1 (Reply 1):
Cutting off the nosewheel doors didn't help



Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 2):
I think it is the nosewheel doors as well.

Well, I thought that at times where pictures get accepted where half of the aircraft is obstructed by a crowd of people some cut nose gear doors would be ok if it helps to get a closer close-up.

Quoting Opso1 (Reply 1):
you can see from the Air France banner at the bottom left that it need a little CW rotation.

It's just optical distortion.

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineGranite From UK - Scotland, joined May 1999, 5577 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4210 times:
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Hello

Quoting ThierryD (Thread starter):
Has the era of helpful personal messages already gone again!?

Nope, as I can see someone give you a personal message on another rejection you had today.

Regards

Gary


User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4206 times:
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Quoting Granite (Reply 4):
Nope, as I can see someone give you a personal message on another rejection you had today.

Yep, but that was only after I posted the thread and additionally the message sadly never made it to my mailbox (the rejection mail itself did though  Confused )
Apart from that, Gary, I'd rather known your opinion about the subject of the thread.

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4195 times:
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Would have been motive for me too, the crop just doesnt work, better include the gear.

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4153 times:
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Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 6):
Would have been motive for me too, the crop just doesnt work, better include the gear.

With the gear included it wouldn't give that "right-into-your-face" look I wanted to have so that's not an option for me.
However, let me state here that, as already mentionned above, accepting pictures (as it has happened very recently) where half of the aircraft is covered by a crowd of people and thus 100% goes against a major rule of this site is driving this whole motive issue ad absurdum.  Yeah sure

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineAirKas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 4028 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 7):
where half of the aircraft is covered by a crowd of people and thus 100% goes against a major rule of this site

Not to disrespect the photographer, but I've been wondering why that shot was accepted aswell.

Btw, I just thought of the fact that Thierry might have meant the unveiling of the 787 shot by Royal, but I was thinking of the Taiwan Air Force fighter. In the caption it said it was "a historic event".
What was so historic about it?

[Edited 2007-07-14 23:15:00]

User currently offlineScottieprecord From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1363 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

I personally feel that crowds add to overall motive of a photo... It really does show the enthusiasm people have for aviation, which is what our hobby is all about.

Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 8):
What was so historic about it?

It looks like this wording was either a mistranslation issue, or perhaps, the photographer felt it was truly historic for his country. This was a military exercise by Taiwan to prepare for an attack by the Chinese, which they feel might be coming soon. Here's a full article:
http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2749088&C=asiapac

Thierry, I think the motive would have been better if you had cut the gear doors out completely. But even so, the glare on the window is very distracting, and detracts from the shot quite a bit IMO.

-Mike


User currently offlineIlikeflight From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

You cut off half the gear doors


Think Different
User currently offlineDM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 7):
With the gear included it wouldn't give that "right-into-your-face" look I wanted to have so that's not an option for me.

It does look nice like that but maybe you have a similar shot like this that at least has the doors included but not the nose wheel?

DM


User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1689 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4079 times:
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Taken from your guide

This is the most subjective rejection reason, sometimes simply that a photograph does not balance well, an unusual crop or similar. This rejection also occurs at times when a photographer tries something new but the screeners do not feel that the final image has been successful. Reasons (or excuses) for any such failure are not important, only the final image is considered.

These are wise words (I wrote them) Big grin
The rejected image is not a bad one but the crop is awkward. I think the mistake was made at the taking rather than editing stage and a portrait shot would have worked so much better by remving the Air France hangar and showing more of the aircraft.
Then it would have really been 'in your face' and powerful.
Fill the frame for impact !
Helpful personals are here to stay but we cannot do them for every image !

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4067 times:
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Quoting AirKas1 (Reply 8):
Btw, I just thought of the fact that Thierry might have meant the unveiling of the 787 shot by
Royal, but I was thinking of the Taiwan Air Force fighter. In the caption it said it was "a historic event".



Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 9):
I personally feel that crowds add to overall motive of a photo... It really does show the enthusiasm people have for aviation, which is what our hobby is all about.

 checkmark 
I was indeed talking about the Mirage shot as I can understand to a certain point the acceptance of Royal's 787 shot; and don't get me wrong I like the Mirage shot as it's a great action shot but so are hundreds of other photos that will never make it to the A.net db because they clearly infringe one or another accetpance rule.
The thing about it is that I, and many other uploaders for that matter, don't understand why so much freedom is given to some shots concerning motive and then again so less to others.

Then I'll have to quote the words of a wise (and thus probably also pretty old man  old   Wink):


Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 12):
This rejection also occurs at times when a photographer tries something new but the screeners do not feel that the final image has been successful.

... but Mick, aren't we all a little different and maybe many other people like the shot just as it is.
And as I posted in this thread: Reject For Motive Is To Vague. (by Xiphias Jul 11 2007 in Aviation Photography) I'd really like some more freedom from the screeners (A.net) when it comes to motive.

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineBubbles From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1196 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 4063 times:
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Hi Thierry

I don't think the crop works, either. And have you been using S/H to this shot?

_Hongyin_


User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4054 times:
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Quoting Bubbles (Reply 14):
I don't think the crop works, either.

Hi Hongyin!
Ok, just to get an idea and for my own understanding (after all I've an IGRR to fill  Wink): is this any better for A.net, except for the fact that I'd now get a size rejection:
Big version: Width: 1025 Height: 800 File size: 288kb
Other crop
? I know the doors are still slightly cut but the shot just doesn't work for me with them completely included.

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 14):
And have you been using S/H to this shot?

slightly

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineBubbles From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1196 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4042 times:
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Hi Thierry

I still don't really like this crop.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
slightly

Well, for the rejected shot, even "slightly" S/H used is still quite visible.  Smile

Regards
_Hongyin_


User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
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Quoting Bubbles (Reply 16):
I still don't really like this crop.

That's probably becasue you're a distance shooter and seeing a plane that close-up just scares you; a natural instinct!  Wink Like a sniper thrown into close combat. Nothing one couldn't get accustomed to though; just give it a try!

Quoting Bubbles (Reply 16):
even "slightly" S/H used is still quite visible.

could you elaborate that please!?

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineJajo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

The composition in this one makes it look strange. I agree 100% about motive rejection. It is too heavy on the right side, looks like it could flip over any second.

/ Jacob


User currently offlineGranite From UK - Scotland, joined May 1999, 5577 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3980 times:
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Hi all

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
is this any better for A.net

Nope, that crop is more awkward tha the first. Maybe best for your own personal collection.

Regards

Gary


User currently offlineGranite From UK - Scotland, joined May 1999, 5577 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3976 times:
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Hi all

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 17):
could you elaborate that please!?

Photoshop 'Shadow/Highlight' took.

Regards

Gary


User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3968 times:
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Quoting ThierryD (Reply 17):
could you elaborate that please!?

has been elaborated; Thanks Hongyin!

Quoting Granite (Reply 19):
Nope, that crop is more awkward tha the first.

see that's why I cropped it as tight as I did; it just looks better that way.

Quoting Granite (Reply 19):
Maybe best for your own personal collection.

Yep, apparently A.net isn't yet ready for such nice close-ups!  Wink


On the other hand no screener has yet expressed himself about the general motive freedom; any thoughts?

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
User currently offlineDM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

Do you think you might be able to post the original image so we can see what it looked like?

DM


User currently offlineJajo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 21):
motive freedom; any thoughts

I've been thinking about this lately. Motive is without doubt the reject reason a screener can use if a photo does not feel "right". I've seen threads where a photographer had a motive rejection, suspects it is because of, say, cutoff gear doors, and then displays a couple of accepted pics with the same cutoff gear doors. So far every accepted photo I have seen in this kind of threads have looked well-balanced and "right" but the rejected photo didn't. I guess this is really hard to see in our own photos, much harder than oversharpening or unlevel.

I sometimes find it funny that participating photographers on A.net needs detailed written instructions for how a photo is to be performed in every aspect. Sometimes I think the overall "feeling" is much more important and almost impossible to document in writing.

/ Jacob

[Edited 2007-07-15 20:03:04]

User currently offlineThierryD From Luxembourg, joined Dec 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3877 times:
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Quoting DM (Reply 22):
Do you think you might be able to post the original image so we can see what it looked like?

Well, it looks just like the processed shot...

Quoting Jajo (Reply 23):
Sometimes I think the overall "feeling" is much more important and almost impossible to document in writing.

Agreed! But then as we are individual beings we have individual feelings and what feels right to some doesn't necessarily feel right to others. That being said I still feel the B777 shot is a nice motive but sadly I couldn't convince the screeners of that; that's not the 1st time and surely won't be the last and I can easily live with that. However as a general note I do believe that uploaders should be given more freedom concerning motive as this rejection is IMO too subjective to be dumped by (in the worst case) a single screener who doesn't have the feeling for it. Because who says that the 200000 daily visitors won't like it!?
For instance I'd easily take a bet that the 777 would get at least 2500 views on the first day at that would then already be 100x more people than there are screeners.

Maybe worth a thought...!?

Thierry



"Go ahead...make my day"
25 Jajo : Very interesting discussion coming up here. From a technical point of view I think your shot looks good, but motive-wise it feels odd. I believe some
26 Dendrobatid : What a great attitude, what a great response. It sums up motive beautifully. Thierry, I have not looked to see how many screeners saw that image befo
27 Post contains images ThierryD : Absolutely agree on all that Jacob, but then we know that standard photography rules often can't be used for A.net as its own stringent rules will de
28 Dendrobatid : We all refer to the upload rules when they are in fact guidelines and we screen within those guidelines. We accept that they are pretty stringent tho
29 Post contains images ThierryD : Never pretended anything else but I do think that there are still a lot of nice motives (and I'm not just talking about own ones) not getting into th
30 JumboJim747 : For all its worth I'm one of those that would defiantly like the shot. Its a shot that almost hits you in the face a bit of fresh air so to speak. A
31 Post contains links and images Jajo : A very good recent example of a photo that feels right-into-the-face but with better balance thanks to a better angle: View Large View MediumPhoto &co
32 ThierryD : Exactly my thoughts! Another angle, yes, a better angle, well that lies in the eye of the beholder. Thierry
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