Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2304 times:
Hi All,
Sorry for another one of these "how much?" threads.
I recently had a photo featured for a website that was agreed upon for no fee. The terms and conditions specified it was only for that one website and that was all that the copyright was provided for.
I have since found it on many different sites from the same company that were not covered under the copyright agreement, and for which I will request compensation.
The image is approximately 400 x 400 pixels with a web distribution on a publication with over 4,000,000 hits.
Maiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2299 times:
Do not ask anything, just send them an invoice for 3 times what you would normally ask due to "breach of contract". As to what to charge, was it used in an advertisement? I'd charge them $1500US. Regardless, the ball is in your court now.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2287 times:
Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 1): As to what to charge, was it used in an advertisement?
No - it was a supporting picture for the publication. The company revenue is generated from advertisments published in the document. That is why I am a little unsure as to what to ask for... I thought anything over $1000 might be excessive but then again, they didn't ask for it... they just took it.
Maiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2285 times:
Make sure you show them the proof. Before you do anything, print screen, save webpage etc.
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 2): I thought anything over $1000 might be excessive but then again, they didn't ask for it... they just took it.
You may only get $1000. I'm sure you will settle for that.
CalgaryBill From Canada, joined May 2006, 686 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2271 times:
I think Maiznblu_757 is on the right track. Depending how many websites the pushed it to, and whether those are PR websites vs revenue-generating sites, I'd be inclined to charge $200-500. Since they didn't ask permission, I'd triple it.
Quoting Monteycarlos (Thread starter): I recently had a photo featured for a website that was agreed upon for no fee. The terms and conditions specified it was only for that one website and that was all that the copyright was provided for.
Unfortunately when companies get stuff for free they often assume the item has no value. Their mentality: "if we can use it in one place at a cost of $0, then the cost in all the other places would be $0 as well, so we're square."
Dendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1605 posts, RR: 64 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
This happened to me once with a Newspaper in Sweden where another a.net photographer spotted the image and told me.
I sent them a bill and told them that I had doubled it because of the breach of copyright. I also gave them a period to pay and told them that if I had to take further action I would double it again
They were a totally respectable outfit and paid with with a complete apology but the hassle for me would almost certainly not have been worthwhile to go to Court in another Country had they not done so.
If a UK company had done it to me I would however have gone to Court.
A lesson for us all in this is to watch the newspeprs and if you see uncredited aviation photos that could have been taken from here, they probably have. I saw some in a UK National paper and got in touch with the photographer who did get paid. Several other a.netters also got in touch with him and this helps us to help others
Mick Bajcar
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2238 times:
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 5): Since they didn't ask permission, I'd triple it.
Hey Bill!
I've sent the company an email, however the situation is a bit more complex than originally thought. I probably don't expect to get anything out of this one other than the removal of the image.
Note the below:
"14. As a condition of entering into this promotion, each entrant licences COMPANY X to use their entry in any media for an unlimited period for any reason including but not limited to future promotional, marketing or publicity purposes. Where the team member submitting the photo is not the owner of the photo or any rights attached to it (including copyright, moral rights and any other intellectual property rights) the team member warrants that it has the authority of the owner to submit the photo, and where the photo is the winner, the rights to licence COMPANY X to use the photo and the photographer’s name and personal image in accordance with these terms and conditions."
Now I have no disagreement that company x use the image, in accordance with the above. The issue is that a) I was not the winner, b) it was a third party company using the image and not in accordance with the above.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 5): Unfortunately when companies get stuff for free they often assume the item has no value. Their mentality: "if we can use it in one place at a cost of $0, then the cost in all the other places would be $0 as well, so we're square."
Yeah, I think for them it is a case of misunderstanding their agreement with "company x". Sadly for me, I look like being the one who will lose out.
I guess the lesson to learn for us photog's is not to enter into a competition without thinking about your willingness to give away your intellectual property.
I took it in good faith that it would only be one company using the image, and that was proven incorrect. However having said that, apparently "company x" is not happy with the third parties decision to use the image outside of their agreement either.
CalgaryBill From Canada, joined May 2006, 686 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 7): I took it in good faith that it would only be one company using the image, and that was proven incorrect. However having said that, apparently "company x" is not happy with the third parties decision to use the image outside of their agreement either.
Hmmm, there's a bad scene. Given the circumstances I'd send the bill directly to the third party(ies) that are using the image and just CC the original company so they know what's going on. Unfortunately, the "not limited to" could be construed as including sale of the images to third parties...
The condition just says you have to be an entrant, not a winner. Many companies these days use photo contests as a way to build a free portfolio. Sorry you're caught up in this.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2121 times:
Just a quick update - My image has been removed from ALL the publications including the COMPANY X one.
No answers to my email from the third party - I'll send them an invoice but I don't like my chances of ever hearing from them.
Speaking of which - does anyone have a soft copy of an invoice they would be willing to send me? I only have a paper booklet that I write on and mail to places.
Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 6): A lesson for us all in this is to watch the newspeprs and if you see uncredited aviation photos that could have been taken from here, they probably have. I saw some in a UK National paper and got in touch with the photographer who did get paid. Several other a.netters also got in touch with him and this helps us to help others
I endeavour to do this - in fact earlier this year I emailed over 15 a.net and "other" photographers with a myspace user who was claiming our images as his own including mine. I tried to get him banned but myspace if softer than a wet newspaper.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 8): Hmmm, there's a bad scene. Given the circumstances I'd send the bill directly to the third party(ies) that are using the image and just CC the original company so they know what's going on. Unfortunately, the "not limited to" could be construed as including sale of the images to third parties...
Yeah I'll need to take a really close look at the T&C. Another gentleman emailed me in response to this thead (thanks and I'll get back to you when I get home tonight) with some further info on T&C's and image copyrights. I'll see if there is anything I can do.
Honestly, it leaves a really sour taste in my mouth when things like this happen... I'd like to believe that there was some kind of honour amongst these 'advertising' companies but that appears not to be the case.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 8): The condition just says you have to be an entrant, not a winner. Many companies these days use photo contests as a way to build a free portfolio. Sorry you're caught up in this.
I didn't read that. I'll have to take a closer look at the agreement. There must be something prohibiting them from on-selling my image. I would never have entered if I knew that could happen.
The worst part is, when they used the image, they never even acknowledged me for it. Needless to say, I would never deal with either company again.
Speaking of which - does anyone have a soft copy of an invoice they would be willing to send me? I only have a paper booklet that I write on and mail to places.
If you are working on a PC rather than a MAC there is a invoicing program called Volutive it is a free download and it is a very helpful program you can just print them up and go
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2108 times:
Quoting Ilikeflight (Reply 10): If you are working on a PC rather than a MAC there is a invoicing program called Volutive it is a free download and it is a very helpful program you can just print them up and go
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4538 posts, RR: 26 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2092 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 7): I guess the lesson to learn for us photog's is not to enter into a competition without thinking about your willingness to give away your intellectual property.
Quoting CalgaryBill (Reply 8): Many companies these days use photo contests as a way to build a free portfolio.
This was exactly the reason I did not enter an internal photo contest my company had last spring. The winner got their photo on the cover of the internal company magazine and other great entries were featured on a page inside. Although my photos would have been good contenders, I didn't like the fine print that basically stated they could use my photo in the future wherever they wanted.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2080 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 12): I didn't like the fine print that basically stated they could use my photo in the future wherever they wanted.
I wonder about the legitimacy of such a condition though. Surely its not possible for you to surrender a copyright in such a manner? I'll have a look into things tonight and see.
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4538 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2077 times:
Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 13): I wonder about the legitimacy of such a condition though. Surely its not possible for you to surrender a copyright in such a manner?
I'm not sure, it sounds like it. According to the form that must be signed and submitted with the entries in our contest it clearly states that you, as the photographer, are granting full permission to the company to copyright, use, reuse, publish etc. the photograph which could be used in future publications and/or advertising materials. It also states that it waives all rights of privacy, exclusive copyright or compensation.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2073 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 14): According to the form that must be signed and submitted with the entries in our contest it clearly states that you, as the photographer, are granting full permission to the company to copyright, use, reuse, publish etc. the photograph which could be used in future publications and/or advertising materials.
There is the kicker - you had a signed (and therby acknowledged form.
I did nothing of the sort - they put the condition that entry into the compensation was deemed as acceptance of the terms and conditions... to which I am very skeptical in its legal standing.
Copyright owners can assign (sell) or license (permit others to use) their rights, with or without limitations (such
as the type of use, or period of time), and with or without conditions (such as payment). For further information
see our information sheet Assigning and licensing rights.
All agreements and transactions with clients relating to copyright should be in writing. Assignments and
exclusive licences must be in writing and signed by or on behalf of the copyright owner to be fully effective.
Agreements that are not in writing may still be enforceable. However, if a dispute arises, it can be difficult to
work out what rights the parties have.
Does this leave me with some standing as I have not signed any agreement?
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Regardless, the ball is in your court now.
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