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Effectiveness Of Pre And Post-screening Threads  
User currently offlineOSU_av8or From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 89 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 hours ago) and read 4052 times:

As someone who has suffered a great many rejects lately, I have started paying much more attention to my photo processing than in years past. As a result, I certainly believe the quality of images I have submitted to this site recently has improved considerably. While I consider rejects an opportunity to learn, they are nonetheless becoming exceptionally frustrating and annoying due to the current banishment of all requests for photo advice to just two threads.

The post screening thread especially has devolved into a place to post your latest rejection. If, by any chance someone does respond, it's difficult to keep the post organized. Furthermore, all the photos in one place seem overwhelming and as a result I think many who might otherwise be inclined to drop by and offer advice are avoiding them.

I understand some don't want to see the forum overrun with requests for help, so might I suggest an alternative: how about a seperate forum for photo advice requests? Each poster could have his or her own thread and it would generally make things much less messy (on the thread itself and on this forum).

It's just a thought I had, Merry Christmas.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (5 years 12 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3993 times:



Quoting OSU_av8or (Thread starter):
Furthermore, all the photos in one place seem overwhelming and as a result I think many who might otherwise be inclined to drop by and offer advice are avoiding them.

Very true. There was a similar thread last month:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...tion_photography/read.main/322151/
There were some 30 replies and virtually nobody liked the big pre- and post-screening threads.

Despite this there wasn't a single reply from the crew. Perhaps the photo screeners consider this a moderation issue, and the moderators don't care that assistance with photo editing isn't working?

It's a very unfortunate situation. Both photographers asking for help, and experienced people who were always willing to lend a hand are being chased away. This needs to be addressed.

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3841 times:
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I must add my own support (once again) to suggestions that the current situation is addressed. I posted a request for feedback in the Post-screening thread on Wednesday and other than one colleague who could not open the photo (another bug!) I have had no response at all.

For me having such long threads, with multiple requests for feedback all jumbled together, are always going to create problems. However, I also agree with arguments that to allow individual threads just swamps the Forum - hence my argument in the old thread Peter mentioned above for a 'sub-Forum' or even a Forum dedicated to editing issues.

Paul

P.S. Whereas previously I did try to reply to other people's requests for feedback, I now have to admit I don't really bother with the pre- and post- screening threads because of their size and the difficulty they present to having a proper discussion.




[Edited 2009-01-03 03:36:23]

User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3832 times:

I reply to those threads sometimes - and sometimes ask for feedback as well. The size of the threads is the big issue - they are huge and difficult to navigate.

User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3830 times:



Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
I must add my own support (once again) to suggestions that the current situation is addressed. I posted a request for feedback in the Post-screening thread on Wednesday and other than one colleague who could not open the photo (another bug!) I have had no response at all

Hello Paul, Happy New Year! new year, old problems apparently  Wink

I agree with everything being said here so far, and as exposed in the other thread, the mega threads are almost usless. Some members do reply and give their imput and opinions, and they should be thanked for that. But unfortunately, all they can give is advice and opinions, that may or may not be useful for a.net purposes. What I'm saying that without screeners giving their views, the threads are almost useless.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3824 times:
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Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 4):
What I'm saying that without screeners giving their views, the threads are almost useless.

Hi there - a very Happy New Year to you and other A.net members.

Whilst I agree that screener participation is really helpful, I understand the pressure on their time and the need to keep the queue low. (In my example, whilst I would have valued screener input, I would have valued others' input no less, because I felt my query was more about how a monitor displays a photo than anything else). That being said, with or without screener input, I believe the current structure simply does not encourage proper conversations about photos - you cannot have five or six conversations going on at the same time, with all the posts mixed together. It just does not encourage participation - from screeners or anyone else. So a big thank you to those who do bother to wade thought the posts.

For me the only long term answer is a separate forum, or a section here, where individual threads are then allowed.

Paul


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

What i don't understand is what was so wrong they way it was before. You had a question, you opened a thread, it was usually answered quickly, and with more screener input than there is now (probably because if a screener gets in the mega thread, it's very hard to actually follow each one of the questions), 2 or 3 replies and then the thread was locked. I personally founf it more helpful than how it currently is.

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
, I would have valued others' input no less, because I felt my query was more about how a monitor displays a photo than anything else

Just to clarify, I value the non screener input as well, and I am thankfull whenever I recieve it. What I meant by "useles" (harsh word choice I think) was that 99% of members, including experienced photogs can give an opinion and they can all reach a consensus on a shot, but then the screener might not agree.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3811 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Hello everybody,

thanks for all the comments and opinions on the current thread situation.

You pointed out the threads are too long, too crowded, hard to navigate through, difficult to have a proper discussion about the image you asked a question about.

To make it simple and easy: I agree with you. Surprised? I guess so  Wink

Now, the story continoues.

Not too long ago - before we started with the pre- and postscreening threads - we received the same amount of complains and emails regarding the aviation photography forum. It is so crowded, I cannot find my threads, the forum is only about rejections and editing help and nothing else anymore, it is hard to navigate through this forum etc etc.

Do you see my point? No matter how we do it, we will receive complains. So we thought it would be a good idea to put the pre and post screening questions into seperate threads, to give the forum a chance to get less crowded again. Well, and now we receive a bunch of emails and complains that these threads are useless....  eyebrow 

So, what should we do?

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
For me the only long term answer is a separate forum, or a section here, where individual threads are then allowed.

Paul

Maybe this is the solution. I will forward that to DM and make this suggestion if this can be considered for the future.

Thanks guys.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3799 times:
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Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 7):
Maybe this is the solution. I will forward that to DM and make this suggestion if this can be considered for the future.

Well you can't ask for more than that at the moment. Thanks Phil.

Paul


User currently offlineAKE0404AR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2535 posts, RR: 45
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

It has to be separate forum / place.
Ever thought about a leave a comment section.

The logic is already there, were people already commenting on pictures online.
Why don't you guys establish something similar for "pre, after before photos"

Vasco


User currently offlineOSU_av8or From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

I would be happy to see an "Image Processing Forum" or something similar.

User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3702 times:
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Hi All

I stopped participating in the pre-screening threads because on a number of occasion I later came across images in the queue I told people did not have a chance. They simply ignored my advice as a screener so I might as well not respond at all.

Now I am sure other people did take my advice but it seemed to me like a waste of time to participate in those threads. The time spent typing a reply and checking back can better be used screening 10-20 images.

I can only assume my fellow screeners have had similar experiences which account for the lack of input. Nowadays I only give out advice through direct email to people who I know take my advice seriously.

I think that if you want screener input you should also treat it as such and not disregard it, or our input is as valuable as someone who just shot his first picture.

Having said that I would support a seperate forum but I would not expect a huge increase in feedback should that happen. As Wilco said, before the mega-threads we got many complaints from people who thought the forum was flooded with prescreening and rejections threads they had no interest in reading. So I doubt they'd come over to a special forum and give advice there. Still, it might be the best compromise. Other priorities will probably result in this being something for the long-term.

Tim



Alderman Exit
User currently offlineJohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3667 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 11):
They simply ignored my advice

That is something we still see in the threads, when we "reject" pics and tell what's wrong with them, they come back with a new set of images with the exact same kind of flaws (cropping anyone?  Wink)

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 11):
The time spent typing a reply and checking back can better be used screening 10-20 images

 checkmark 

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 11):
So I doubt they'd come over to a special forum and give advice there. Still, it might be the best compromise

Well, I have contributed a lot to both pre- and post screening threads, and I would continue doing that in a sub forum, as soon as I feel comfortable with my new screen.
Maybe if some members here were appointed "Pre-screener" that could both screen and moderate a sub-forum like that? Then you would have some people that are more trusted than the "ordinary" photog, but still don't have the work load and responsibilities of a Photo Screener.



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlineFergulmcc From Ireland, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3651 times:



Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12):
"Pre-screener" that could both screen and moderate a sub-forum like that? Then you would have some people that are more trusted than the "ordinary" photog, but still don't have the work load and responsibilities of a Photo Screener.

A good suggestion! Worth noting! Without the screeners input it's not worth having a separate thread or forum!

Fergul  sun 



Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3649 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

So, as it looks to me, the pre- and postscreening threads are as useless as every single thread which dealt with rejections or editing help?

That is at least my feeling I get from the last replies I read in this thread.

wilco737
 white 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFergulmcc From Ireland, joined Oct 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3638 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 14):
So, as it looks to me, the pre- and postscreening threads are as useless as every single thread which dealt with rejections or editing help?

Other photographers can only help, they are not screeners, they can certainly tell the good from the bad ones but its the ones that are borderline where screeners can help the most. These threads are only effective if they put their input into them.
On a whole I do think its better that they are in one single thread but maybe limit the thread length, for arguments sake, once it reaches over 100 replies start another one.

Fergul  sun 



Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3637 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 15):
Other photographers can only help, they are not screeners, they can certainly tell the good from the bad ones but its the ones that are borderline where screeners can help the most. These threads are only effective if they put their input into them.

The input of other photographers is for sure helpful, but as you said, the borderline pictures can only be pre- screened by the screener.

Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 15):
On a whole I do think its better that they are in one single thread but maybe limit the thread length, for arguments sake, once it reaches over 100 replies start another one.

Well, that's not a big problem for us. Locking a thread and starting a new one is easy  Wink 100 sounds about right to me as well.

wilco737
 white 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

As Wilco has pointed out the new way the super threads are now is just too much of a chore to navigate through for both parties. I really never particiapte anymore. In a way I think management should re-visit this. Go back to the way it was and just have the mods more on top if it. Delete them when they answer has been given or when the thread starter requests to do so. I think you will see more people participating, more improving and a much less of a queue and less low quality uploads.

User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3611 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 16):
100 sounds about right to me as well.

First, thanks for participating in this thread, Wilco.

Limiting the superthreads to 100 replies doesn't solve the big problem - the lack of insight into who's talking about what photo. This means actual discussion doesn't take place any more, while many people no longer bother to participate at all.

Completely agree.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 17):
I think management should re-visit this. Go back to the way it was and just have the mods more on top if it. Delete them when they answer has been given or when the thread starter requests to do so. I think you will see more people participating, more improving and a much less of a queue and less low quality uploads.

Completely agree. yes  A dedicated sub-forum is another possibility but I don't feel it's neccessary. The old system worked well enough for years. It only got a bit out of hand when a few people started to ask pre-screening for every single photo they shot. People will even moderate themselves when asked I think.

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3603 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 18):
Limiting the superthreads to 100 replies doesn't solve the big problem - the lack of insight into who's talking about what photo. This means actual discussion doesn't take place any more, while many people no longer bother to participate at all.

I see your point here. At least it would make it a bit easier to follow the thread as it won't take so long to load until the thread is up and you maybe can find your post easier.

It is a pity that people doesn't bother to participate anymore. I must say, I can understand them. It is messy as well. Like it used to be with the "personal" pre- and postscreening threads. There were just so many which made it more difficult as well to browse through them.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 18):
A dedicated sub-forum is another possibility but I don't feel it's neccessary.

As long as we cannot assure that many user/ screener/ photographer will participate in that forum, we won't need it. Imagine DM will open such a new forum and there will only be thread starters with loads of questions, but no answers. Not the way it should be.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 18):
The old system worked well enough for years. It only got a bit out of hand when a few people started to ask pre-screening for every single photo they shot.

THe problem of the overcrowded forum just popped up very recently. So we mods had a discussion about it, how we can maybe make the photography forum less crowded. We came up with the idea of the pre- and post screening threads. So we started them and we got complains as well. As I stated in another post. The forum itself now is less crowded, therefore it is more difficult to find a reply to the question one asked. Btw, I am waiting for a reply as well in the post- screening thread  Wink

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 18):
People will even moderate themselves when asked I think.

I am not sure here. If everybody moderators himself, then we are without a job and believe me, we are busy  Wink

I don't think there will be a solution where everybody will be happy, so we have to find a way in the middle where everybody can live with. We thought the pre/ post screening threads were such a solution. Apparently it wasn't 100% ok as well.

If you have any other ideas how to improve the situation, then please let us know. That's what we are here for.

wilco737
 cool 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3064 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
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I think there is one crucial factor that we cannot ignore in all this:

Things really changed in the Photography Forum when all photographers, irrespective of their previous site membership status, were provided with access to this particular Forum. Now I am not arguing for or against that move, but the result was that the number of pre-screening threads rocketed - often posted by people who had recently joined the site or who had little experience interpreting the site's criteria. That change in Forum participation seemed to lead to a major shift away from more general discussions to the seeking of advice on the screening of photos.

I wonder whether I am alone in finding it less reinforcing getting involved in a thread where the questions could actually easily be answered by a closer examination of the criteria themselves and previous discussions.... or use of/reference to a coherent guide to the site's criteria, illustrated with real examples  wink .

Paul


User currently offlineN701DN From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3551 times:



Quoting Psych (Reply 20):
use of/reference to a coherent guide to the site's criteria, illustrated with real examples

I did some searching. I ended up finding an illustrated guide to the site's criteria, illustrated with real examples: http://www.airliners.net/search/index.main.


User currently offlineVarig767 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 243 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3529 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 19):
As long as we cannot assure that many user/ screener/ photographer will participate in that forum, we won't need it.

But we don't know, because there isn't such a subforum. What is the risk or consequence in creating the subforum and noticing that just a few user/screener/photographer will participate?

Seems like the majority is complaining about the big pre- and postscreening threads. Before those threads exists, people complained about the Aviation Photography forum 'contaminated' with pre- and post screening threads.

Combining both complaints results in my opinion to the solution of creating a sub-forum.

Kind regards, Martijn


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3521 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Varig767 (Reply 22):
But we don't know, because there isn't such a subforum. What is the risk or consequence in creating the subforum and noticing that just a few user/screener/photographer will participate?

It is not in my hands to open such a subforum. It can only be done by the developers of this site.
The problem is still, if not enough people participate in those forums, then it is useless and as pointed out by Tim earlier, when they provide feedback and people don't listen to it and upload it anyway, then it is again useless. Then I don't see the need for an extra forum if people post in there, a screener tells them: don't upload it, it won't make it. And then it will be uploaded anyway. Then the whole subforum will lose its sense, don't you think?

Quoting Varig767 (Reply 22):
Seems like the majority is complaining about the big pre- and postscreening threads. Before those threads exists, people complained about the Aviation Photography forum 'contaminated' with pre- and post screening threads.

No matter what we do, there will be complains. Before the big threads we received complains and we still receive complains about the big threads.

wilco737
 white 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMcG1967 From UK - Scotland, joined Apr 2006, 517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

I was an advocate initially for the creation of a dedicated pre and post screening threads, however having seen them in action I am not so sure that they are as effective as they could have been.

Also, at the time of their creation, the queue was a lot higher than it is now.

I am now of the opinion that with a low queue it is worth taking your chances in the queue, as even if you get a reject, you will not be waiting too long for a decision from the screeners. Unfortunately I am finding that using the laptop to edit while on an extended business trip is not always the best course of action when trying to upload photos.

I do think that the use of more personal messages from the screening team could help out with some issues - such as level rejections with a suggested amount to rotate an image.

Regards

Mark


25 Varig767 : I understand, so the 'create a sub-forum' propaganda below isn't mentioned for you. Again, as you state: *IF* not enough people participate (...). We
26 WILCO737 : Maybe. What I am currently doing, is collecting all the suggestions and ideas about the pre/ post screening threads and will forward it to DM. They c
27 Varig767 : Maybe some extra conditions can apply to participants of the pre-screening sub-forum. I can imagine that the person who requests pre-screening advice
28 NIKV69 : If Tim has found a pic in the queue that he already dicussed in a pre-screening thread he can handle it a number of ways, he can reject the pic with
29 JohnKrist : Now we are getting close to my idea About those hard to judge pics it could be possible for a "pre-screener" to pass it on to a screener, that way the
30 JohnKrist : Or are feeling lucky... But as Martijn wrote, if you asked for advice and ignored the answers there could be a warning for wasting screeners time
31 N701DN : Since people complained before and after the mega-threads were started, why not do away with pre-/post-screening requests altogether? Problem solved.
32 TimdeGroot : An official rejection guide with updates rejection reasons and examples is coming soon. I've just updated it and it's on its way to DM. It should hav
33 WILCO737 : I don't think it is a good idea to let the screener do that. They are very busy with screening and I don't think they should do moderator work as wel
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