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Air To Air With Prop Discs  
User currently offlineBaldurSveins From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9120 times:

I have just about been blown away with some of the work that I have seen recently in a number of places. I myself have been doing air to air work now since 1979 when my first mission surprisingly was in an F-4E Phantom. The thing is that this late in my hobby/career I have taken to photographing propeller planes in the air and I am having problems with the props. Mostly with using a slow enough speed to be able to get a good prop blur or even a disk. I am talking about photos like these

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Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages


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Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages


The best I have been able to achieve is to use a speed of 1/100 and get about 80% of a disk on a twin blade prop or 1/200 and get about 40% of a disk on the same mission. I have taken a number of shots at these speeds and at the slower speed, the best I got was a wee bit blurredshot , (too much for ANalthough that in itself is not the main thing), but got a usable A4 print with some careful sharpening. It seems to me that to get a disk of a twin blade prop in the air one would have to get down to at least 1/80 and then my hands are not able to hold the camera steady. Of course I am using an old non stabilizing lens (Canon 70-200 f2.8), and a newer stabilising lens might solve the problem. I would just love to hear the experience of some of you, like Javier Guerrero and others that have been able to master such captures in the air.
Does the camera ship have anything to do with this?
Hope to have some lively discussion on this intriguing subject.

Baldur Sveinsson

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBaldursveins From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9099 times:

just as an add on to my opening, here is a photo taken with the Canon 100-400 4.5:5.6 at 1/60th and a focal length of 120mm. Of course that lens is equipped with a stabilizer. Still I took a number of shots as the aircraft was taxying towards me, and only two were really sharp.

http://www.verslo.is/home/baldur/BIKF080902/5572_F-27_TF-SYN_1200.jpg

Baldur


User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9051 times:

Javier's images that you've plugged are outstanding, to say the least. Technically they're masterpieces IMO. I don't know how many attempts it took him to get them right but I would've shot 1,000 frames if I knew I could get something as good as those 2 pictures! Even during the day I'm struggling with props, hand-holding with something static proves quite difficult.

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Photo © Spencer Wilmot


Javier, our saviour, come to our rescue!  Wink
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9053 times:
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I think volume is the key, at low speeds like that you just shoot a lot of images and hope one comes out sharp.

That doesnt take away the fact that these are awesome though and are obviously more skill than luck!

Correct me if I'm wrong J Wink

Tim



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User currently offlineBaldurSveins From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9046 times:

Spencer (Reply 2)

That is an outstanding shot. What were your parameters? Speed, lens so on.

Tim (Reply 3)

I would love to hear from Javier if he is around, and anybody else if your hypothesis is true. I suspect it might be, but one can hope that there is a trick or technique (along with skill and a steady hand of course). One photographer I met suggested a monopod for ground based shots at least. Any comments on that, I have never tried it.

Baldur


User currently offlineChris78cpr From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2823 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9034 times:

I know it's not the same but when i shoot motorsports i find to get a pleasing effect from the wheels turning on the cars i have to drop my shutter speeds to very low, lower than i generally would like.

Tim has hit the nail on the head, for me at least i shoot on high speed drive and shoot small bursts often in the hope that the second/third/fourth frame is sharp which is usually the case.

I also do use a monopod as i find that this helps stop the up and down blur that can be had from holding the lens.

I am by no means a master but using those two things i've found the rate of usable shots i get increases by a good amount.

Chris



5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9034 times:
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Hi baldur

Cannot comment on the a2a but I can shoot up to 1/10th with a IS lens hand held (moving objects). The volume rule hold true though at those speeds, I maybe have a succes rate of 1 in 30 or more.

Tim



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User currently offlineINNflight From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 3767 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9012 times:

It also largely depends on your photo ship. It's a whole different thing shooting from a Cessna 172 leaning out into the propwash than from a B-25's tailgunner position, where you have no wind to deal with at all.

I'm sure J must be around somewhere? Those pilots never work anyways, do they?  Wink



Jet Visuals
User currently offlineKereru From New Zealand, joined Jun 2003, 873 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

Maybe he is lucky to have one of these?

http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html



Good things take Time.
User currently offlineJderden777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1758 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8954 times:

The shutter speed needed to get a full disc on the prop also varies depending on your subject. A turboprop like a Dash 8 (especially the Q400) will have slow turning props which will mean that you'd need a slower shutter speed to get a full arc, compared to a fast turning prop. For example I think the Saab 340s use a higher prop rpm than the Dash 8. Anyway basically if you have a high prop rpm on the subject, it's easier to get a full arc on the prop without having an impossibly low shutter speed.


"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
User currently offlineDamien846 From UK - England, joined Dec 2006, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8925 times:

A good topic,
I would love to know how J did it?
My limited a2a has got some good results, but the best prop blur I have so far got is.

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Photo © Damien Dyer


Does help having the sun in th right place...ie low for this shot. But more luck than skill, for this shot.
Tim's, volume rule is very true. I have shot 200 shots on one a2a shot with a glider! Not bad for a 10 min flight!!!!!
Cheers
Damien.


User currently offlineMUC_Spotter From Cayman Islands, joined Apr 2002, 157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8893 times:

The Ken Lab stabilizers linked above are the tool of choice for this kind of work, but imo only affordable if you do a lot of these assignments. Stabilized lenses are fine as well, but not that effective.

I usually start with higher shutterspeeds (~1/320 or 1/250) and then work myself down to get nicer results, resulting also in a lot more scrap.

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Photo © Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings


Fortunately digital enables us to check for the prop disc at once and being on a specific photo mission makes it also possible to ask the pilot to fly the highest possible rpm setting, which boosts the chances to get some nice results.
But in any case: take as many shots as you can.. I think that's what Javier did as well to get his photos.


User currently offlineDendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1691 posts, RR: 61
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8847 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Not air to air but I was trying for a good prop blur and managed this at 1/90 sec.

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Photo © Mick Bajcar


I have only recently got IS lenses and previously used a Bigma that was difficult to hand-hold that slow.
Even with the IS some shots were not sharp due to subject movement and at lower speeds the aircraft had moved forward just enough in the time the shutter was open for the prop disc to be broken, a sort of very flat open-ended spiral.
Have some air to air scheduled so intrigued by this topic.
I have heard that IS is not a lot of use as it is overwhelmed by the aircraft vibrations. Anyone any thoughts on that ?
Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineJavibi From Spain, joined Oct 2004, 1371 posts, RR: 41
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

Hi guys! Thanks for the kind words, I am glad somebody like my photos (actually I had been tempted of posting the second one as a surprising low hitter in the other thread)  
I have almost no a2a experience compared to some of you (only five missions so far), so I do not really think I can give much advice; I will try to answer some of your questions, nevertheless.

Quoting BaldurSveins (Thread starter):
newer stabilising lens might solve the problem

It'll definitely help; lenses I have used a2a are the Canon 24-105 IS, 70-200 f4 IS and 100-400 IS, all stabilized. I am particularly impressed by the image quality and quality/price ratio of the 70-200 f4 IS.

Quoting BaldurSveins (Thread starter):
Does the camera ship have anything to do with this?

Yes. Many factors intervene in this kind of photo, as you know, particularly when you try low shutter speeds: vibration of the camera plane itself, possible turbulence weather related, airspeed of the camera plane (choose a fast camera ship and the chasing plane will need to fly faster, probably resulting a higher prop rpm, thus you can use higher shutter speeds to get a full disc).

Quoting BaldurSveins (Thread starter):
to get down to at least 1/80

During that session, that lasted 18 minutes, I shot in the range of 1/100-1/50 th (at the Fundación Infante de Orleáns we have a slow camera ship, but fortunately the Su-26 prop's rpm are relatively high); I have kept 180 files with reasonable quality; of those I am satisfied (quality, composition, etc.) with around 40; I probably shot over 400 frames.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 3):
I think volume is the key

Yes and no; shoot quite a number of frames, assuming you are only going to get 10 % usable shots at the maximum, yes. Shoot machine gun style without care to technique and precision, no; that doesn't work at all, that I know from my own experience

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 4):
One photographer I met suggested a monopod for ground based shots at least. Any comments on that, I have never tried it.

Never used a monopod, but since I bought my 500, I have had to learn to shoot panning with a tripod as opposite to handheld as I did with the 100-400. IMHO, though necessary with the 500, it is more difficult than handheld panning. So, a monopod should help, but expect a hard learning process for moving subjects.


Quoting INNflight (Reply 7):
It's a whole different thing shooting from a Cessna 172 leaning out into the propwash than from a B-25's tailgunner position, where you have no wind to deal with at all.

Absolutely. If you have to have your camera in the propwash, forget about low shutters.

Quoting Kereru (Reply 8):
Maybe he is lucky to have one of these?

Didn't even know those existed  

Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 9):
The shutter speed needed to get a full disc on the prop also varies depending on your subject.



Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 9):
Anyway basically if you have a high prop rpm on the subject, it's easier to get a full arc on the prop

Right, see above.

Quoting Damien846 (Reply 10):
Does help having the sun in th right place...ie low for this shot.

I guess; unfortunately, for reasons out of my control, I only get to shoot a2a at noon. I'd kill for a dusk/dawn session like those the pros fly.

Quoting MUC_Spotter (Reply 11):
Fortunately digital enables us to check for the prop disc at once and being on a specific photo mission makes it also possible to ask the pilot to fly the highest possible rpm setting, which boosts the chances to get some nice results.

That is right  

Cheers,

j

P.S:

Quoting INNflight (Reply 7):
I'm sure J must be around somewhere? Those pilots never work anyways, do they?

How about MAD-VCE-MAD-VLC(LAYOVER)VLC-MAD-ORY-MAD-SVQ(LAYOVER)SVQ-MAD-DUS-MAD these last three days?  

[Edited 2009-02-09 04:21:37]


"Be prepared to engage in constructive debate". Are YOU prepared?
User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

I have never shot air-to-air, but am pleased with this one, shot at 1/80th sec, 400mm hand-held.


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Photo © Vivion Mulcahy




Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineBaldurSveins From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

Javibi

Thank you very much for replying faithfully to all the questions asked. Do not degrade yourself or be too modest. You are an exceptionally talented photographer and even if you have only a few a/a missions under your belt, you have approached the prop problem carefully and methodically and got this phenomenal success . Hits is another matter entirely. I have not been able to relate quality to hits in nearly all cases.
I will just include two more examples from the only mission where I made a dedicated try for prop disk, that was on the mission with TF-EJG. I apologize for the size, I did not try to upload but one photos from that mission to AN so they are from my own site. The difference is the speed, 1/200.
http://www.verslo.is/home/baldur/BIRK080929/TF-EJG_6899G_1200.jpg
and the other at 1/100.
http://www.verslo.is/home/baldur/BIRK080929/TF-EJG_6902_prop_1200.jpg
The difference is obvious. About 35%-40% disk and about 80%.The second one however was not quite sharp, that is the front end of the aircraft was not as sharp as the rear end, but it came out rather well printed as an A4 print.
With my two main pilots we are going on a research mission soon for us to try to figure out some more parameters to take into account. We do not have access to any high performance photoships so the trusty Cessna 170 will have to suffice. As I will not be able to post a number of photos from the same mission on ANet, I will just try to point you in the direction of the page when we have the opportunity (hopefully tomorrow).

Baldur

[Edited 2009-02-09 09:53:04]

User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8722 times:



Quoting Kereru (Reply 8):

I sold off my gyro Ken-Lab stabilizer and went for Stabilized lenses instead. The Ken lab unit worked too well actually. I found it to be counter productive for hand SLR's as it has some heft to it, (your hand would start to shake from the strain) especially attached to a 300, 2.8. The you have to wear a sizable battery pack which I found bulky while crammed into aircraft. The trade off to stabilized lenses was a good one. While used on the ground, the Ken-Lab has panning issues as you cannot move quickly at all...damage will result to the gimbals...very$$$!...ouch factor. You have to move in a lethargic manor. I haven't done a lot of air to air for hire but the one thing I found is to cut down on the relative motion between the shooting platform aircraft and the subject...When the speed of both aircraft are well matched...you stand the best opportunity of playing with shutter speeds...early morning and late day shoots are better as the atmosphere is more stable and the lighting more dramatic. My first a2a was a MU-2 Marquis at 400 ft agl under JFK appraoch under the class Bravo umbrella...it was a very tense shoot for both planes. The client wanted his beachfront house in the photo. We had heavies hundreds of feet above us inbound for JFK 31's. After progressing east...subject plane came within ten feet of a mid air...I got the shot...since then, I've not been a big fan of a2a as you really need to have highly experienced pilots in both ships flying. This day, it was not the case.


User currently onlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4725 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8690 times:



Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 9):
For example I think the Saab 340s use a higher prop rpm than the Dash 8.

On the other hand, the 340 has 4 prop blades where the Q400 has 6, which makes it easier to shoot the Q400 with a full disc.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8667 times:



Quoting MUC_Spotter (Reply 11):
Fortunately digital enables us to check for the prop disc at once



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 3):
I think volume is the key

Both very true but sometimes you just don't have the time to do both!

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 4):
That is an outstanding shot. What were your parameters? Speed, lens so on

Thanks Baldur. I don't have the EXIF available on my laptop but I believe I used the 24-105IS. F/8 was probably dialled in, or there abouts. Shutter speed...can't remember.
I know it was handheld however, but I have found using a monopod gives me greater stability which results in more keepers. If it had got any darker I would definitely had got the tripod out.
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8665 times:



Quoting BaldurSveins (Thread starter):
Of course I am using an old non stabilizing lens (Canon 70-200 f2.8)

That's the good part albeit to long.

Quoting Baldursveins (Reply 1):
Still I took a number of shots as the aircraft was taxying towards me, and only two were really sharp.

One of the slow speed problems is the Aperture and with the 100-400 smaller then F16 you are not likely to make many sharp frames even with 2 feet anchored in Icelandic lava

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 3):
at low speeds like that you just shoot a lot of images and hope one comes out sharp.

Tell that to the one who pays the fuel bill and you have flown your last mission.
A2A is like any form of photography based on knowledge and expirience(lots of it), hope is best left inside the church but surely no part in any kind of aviation.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 7):
It also largely depends on your photo ship. It's a whole different thing shooting from a Cessna 172 leaning out into the propwash than from a B-25's tailgunner position, where you have no wind to deal with at all.

That makes indeed a huge difference although even a big and stable platform can be very shaky.

Quoting MUC_Spotter (Reply 11):
Stabilized lenses are fine as well, but not that effective.

I would say not effective at all, in fact it makes the problem only bigger.
Which is logical, in lens IS is designed to counter human shake which is measured in mm.
Turbulence shake is measured in cm ..............on a good day.
Even on the perfect day you still move the camera by cm at the time just to keep focus lock and the IS is simply not designed to cope with that.
For sure the ones without a mode switch like the 24-105/4 are a pain the the a.......
Another thing is that I found out(after almost screwing up a complete session) the especially the 24-105 IS can't take any form of G-loading(which btw includes turbulence).


Baldur in general.
- Use the shortest lens possible, the shorter the lens the easier you can get slow shutter speeds.
From all glass used over the years my personal favorite is still the Sigma 24-70/2.8, sturdy as a tank and pretty good stopped down.

- Try to get some technical data before the session which will enable you to calculate the required exposure.
Ask the crew during the brief to use the finest pitch possible in order to increase prop rpm(if the a/c in question can of course.....DC3, F.27 etc).
Small a/c useally can't but they have a high prop speed anyway which makes the matter easier.
You can also ask the crew of the object a/c to use a bit flap which enables them to increase power a bit.

- I personally like to shoot short burst of 3 rather then machine gunning the object.
If the conditions aren't good enough to make a good shot in 1 out of 3 you are not gonna make it with 1 out of 10 either.

- Go high if possible, at 6000ft things are a lot quieter then at 1000 to 1500ft.
I imagine that the skies above Iceland are like the Dutch turbulent most of the time albeit due to different reasons in which case one has to accept the way things are.
In 8 year A2A I got 2 opportunities to go really slow and those opportunities didn't last for more then 20 seconds  Big grin

I'll write you an email about the Neptune.

Take care and good luck,
Willem



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8649 times:
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Quoting Aviopic (Reply 19):
Tell that to the one who pays the fuel bill and you have flown your last mission.
A2A is like any form of photography based on knowledge and expirience(lots of it), hope is best left inside the church but surely no part in any kind of aviation.

Hope and luck play a big part in photography IMO, it often (together with skill and experience) determines if you get that one unique shot or not. That has been my experience at least, you cant plan for everything.


Tim



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User currently offlineBaldurSveins From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8640 times:

Dear all

How stupid can one be? I taught mathematics in a college for 40 years, and still did not see the logic. This is a simple matter of timing calculation.

Lets take an example. Say the RPM of a single engine small plane is 2400 (of course almost everyone knows that rpm stands for revolutions per minute). Divide by 60 and you get 40 revs per second. If you have a two blade prop, it only has to go for half a revolution for the prop to make a circle. This means that if you use 1/80 you get the whole disk. With a three blade prop and the same rpms you use 1/120 to get the whole disc. A very simple problem to calculate what speed you need. Not so simple a problem to actually be able to do it as everyone has attested to. Look at my EJG photos above (Reply 15) and see this calculation substantiated.

Willem

You mentioned some very interesting cookie material regarding the god of the sea (P2V Neptune. Those who know me know that I am trying to get a photo of every single Lockheed Neptune built, all 1100+). I am looking forward to that. Of course you also gave very good and relevant advice.

I hope this subject has been of interest to a lot of people. It has been read at least 450 times and hopefully learned something. I know I have. I ask everybody that has something to share to pitch in and give us te benefit of experience and knowledge.

It was interesting to learn of the Giro experience form Jerry. I seriously thought about getting something like that, but now I am not so sure without having a chance to test without buying.

The mission tomorrow is almost certainly on, The only uncertainty is the subject airplane, but Sigurjón Valsson who is my chief pilot will find something befor noon tomorrow, so we can try put put the theory into practice.

Baldur


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 8600 times:



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 20):
Hope and luck play a big part in photography IMO, it often (together with skill and experience) determines if you get that one unique shot or not.

With both feet on sturdy soil yes but when burning 10 euro's a minute luck has to be excluded from the occasion.
You simply come back with usable material or you don't go without "hope" and/or "luck".

The words "hope" and "luck" makes people nervous in aviation.
If I tell the Captain "Well I hope to have done a proper repair job" he is going to leave the a/c on the tarmac without going anywhere.
If I tell the ceo "well I hope to come back with proper photo material" he will answer "well in that case I better send someone else up".

Maybe it sounds a bit dramatic but that is not my intention.
First It's Attitude that determines whether someone is ending up doing A2A after which you have to proof your point of course.
Probably this is the best tip I can give to all who would like to have a go at A2A.
"Yes I can" is the right attitude and never mention Hope and/or Luck no matter how much doubts you might have.

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 21):
How stupid can one be? I taught mathematics in a college for 40 years, and still did not see the logic. This is a simple matter of timing calculation.

I tried to tell you without using the word "stupid"  Big grin

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 21):
Say the RPM of a single engine small plane is 2400

Almost correct haha
Engine RPM often differs from prop RPM.
You have to take the reduction box(or gear box) in account as well.

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 21):
If you have a two blade prop, it only has to go for half a revolution for the prop to make a circle. This means that if you use 1/80 you get the whole disk. With a three blade prop and the same rpms you use 1/120 to get the whole disc.

No, you have to calculate the time one blade needs to make a full circle.
You can cheat a little with more blades but there is only a limited margin.


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Photo © Willem Honders


Engine RPM about 900, Gear ratio 0.4375:1 Let's say 1/3 to make things easy.
Makes Prop RPM about 1200/60 = 1/20s
1/30s might just work as well but anything faster doesn't.

Quoting BaldurSveins (Reply 21):
Those who know me know that I am trying to get a photo of every single Lockheed Neptune built

You are welcome to make the photos your self.  Big grin



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineTimdeGroot From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 3674 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks ago) and read 8589 times:
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Quoting Aviopic (Reply 22):
Maybe it sounds a bit dramatic but that is not my intention.
First It's Attitude that determines whether someone is ending up doing A2A after which you have to proof your point of course.
Probably this is the best tip I can give to all who would like to have a go at A2A.
"Yes I can" is the right attitude and never mention Hope and/or Luck no matter how much doubts you might have.

Yes but that is just marketing Willem, and I agree you need to sell yourself. But you do have that hope inside that this time you may just get a fantastic image that no planning could have done. Photography is art and luck does play a part, maybe not always if you are "playing safe" but if you are pushing bounderies like Javier does than I do think you can hit or miss. That may not be a problem if you are shooting just for yourself, but if you shoot for a client then you have to play it safe, and only if you got enough good images can you take it to the next level.

Tim



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User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8572 times:

I hear you Tim but I don't market myself.
The fact that you, Javier make more stunners than others has in my opinion nothing to do with luck but with skills and lots of practice so if the moment comes your are able to perform.
Let me explain with an example.

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Photo © Willem Honders


We were in serious bad weather and I was(of course not buckled in but sitting on my knees in front of a window) smacked from the ceiling to the floor and back.
Took a couple of I don't know 1/1000s or so shots and packed my gear as I didn't see the point to continue.
Then all of a sudden it became very quite(apparently we were in the eye of a system), got my gear back out and took 3 shots.
It didn't last for more then 10 seconds or so.
Now the fact that you get a break might be luck but the fact that you can pull off 3 1/60s shots is not.
That's about being prepaired, knowing what you want and practice.
If that split second opportunity comes there is no time for hope and luck, let alone checking your lcd.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
25 Viv : YES! As a famous golfer once said when told he was lucky: "I am lucky. And the more I practice the luckier I get"!
26 Post contains links and images Walter2222 : I have never done A2A, but this is my best result so far in the digital age: View Large View MediumPhoto © Walter Van Bel shot at 1/40s at 160mm
27 Post contains images Acontador : Hi Baldur, I have had a few opportunities to shoot some Air-to-Air props, but have to admit that I have not produced anything worth showing. There is
28 Post contains links and images Jspitfire : Some great information in this thread. I have not done a2a yet, but I think I've finally figured out how to get a prop circle on the ground. This one
29 Post contains links and images ThierryD : Hi Baldur, hi all, one point one has to emphasize again here I think is the importance of the engine resp. propeller rpm. For instance taxiing planes
30 JRadier : That's why I think doing Air-2-Air with gliders is a great start for an 'A2A introduction'. Sure, the shooting possibilities are limited and they all
31 Aviopic : Hehe..... get yourself an "el cheapo" lens which stops down to F32 Thierry. I was the only one to make full discs of an idle running Connie because I
32 ThierryD : You'd still have to set it there then in manual mode Bragger!! Thierry
33 Post contains links INNflight : Hmm good thread. Any chance one of you guys could help me with this one? I tried to go VERY low with the shutter speed, but still didn't manage more t
34 Xenon : good one Daniel
35 ThierryD : Flo, I really expected more from a photographer like you!! But keep trying; one day you'll get there!! Thierry
36 JRadier : Wishful thinking!
37 AirKas1 : I thought you flew long-haul?
38 Post contains links and images Aviopic : Missed your post last night Jurgen. Well yes and no. First of all I like gliders for their gracious lines and they are packed with technology(they hav
39 Post contains links and images BaldurSveins : Florian Seems like your arcraft is below the horizon and rising, but with a humongous propeller and extremely finely painted proptips. Perhaps you did
40 Post contains links and images Damien846 : Glider A2A does need a bit of planning but does not have to be that hard...... View Large View MediumPhoto © Damien Dyer One 20 min flight we in
41 Aviopic : Of course they will, Iceland rocks ! Well done Baldur and to bad of the 28-70. A final tip, I keep a checklist in my pocket which I work through afte
42 Walter2222 : Really very nice shots, Baldur! Good photography, amazing backgrounds! This happened to me also some time ago, and i only found out after 4 F-15C Eag
43 JRadier : Not as black and white as you make it out to be. I 'grew up' around EHDL (Deelen AB) which is right next to EHTL (Terlet, national glider center) on
44 Javibi : I did. Not anymore j
45 ThierryD : Always knew Canons were cameras for Dummies... Thierry
46 Post contains links and images Scooter01 : I'm not an expert like some of you guys, but think the trick is to get a bit higher off the ground..... View Large View MediumPhoto © Fyodor Bor
47 Chukcha : If threads could be rated, I'd rate this one five stars. And I'd vote it for "Photographers Choice" .
48 Chris78cpr : Baldur, I just had a look at your shots on your webpage, they are really good, great stuff. I'm sure you can get one or two on here. Did you use the
49 BaldurSveins : Thank you Chris. I have two in the pipeline now (9251G and 9355G) and wait patiently for the screeners decision. Of course I hope that one of them wil
50 Post contains links and images BaldurSveins : Both of them were accepted this morning. View Large View MediumPhoto © Baldur Sveinsson View Large View MediumPhoto © Baldur Sveinsson Baldu
51 ThierryD : No full disc but still a real treat!! Very well done, Baldur! Thierry
52 Post contains links and images Dlowwa : This one was just added... View Large View MediumPhoto © Baldur Sveinsson ...WOW... ...keep as many of these as possible coming please! Dana
53 Javibi : If you need any help with that or do not feel like flying a mission for any reason, do not hesitate to give me a call Cheers, j
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