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Dilution Of Quality In "PHOTOGRAPHERS' Choice"  
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1309 posts, RR: 25
Posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6390 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

I have noticed this phenomenon for a while now (a few years at least) and I am sure others have too.

I find it very odd that while there are fantastic (and rightfully so) pictures chosen as "photographers choice" by us there are also mundane run of the mill stuff from certain countries that repeatedly and routinely join this list. A few years ago, these pics were novel and eye catching but a few hundred or thousand later, they are routine shots. These are not stellar technical masterpieces either hence I call them routine shots.

Perhaps, the rest of the photographers need to band together to make a concerted effort to tag appropriate pictures so that the photographer's choice really means that as opposed to a buddy list.


World Wide Aerospace Photography
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChukcha From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6342 times:
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You hit the nail right on the head. Just the other day I noticed that three or four pictures on the top were from the same country, and a couple of them seemed very average in all respects. The shots below them seemed much more interesting and deserving to be voted for.

The only way to stop it from happening this would be for every photographer to try and exercise their right to vote for the pictures that really deserve to be on the top.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6052 times:

Photos from "certain" countries always seem to do that. Some of them are worthy (rare catches) though.

And if you get a shot to the photographers choice, then when one of the aforementioned images comes along, yours will be voted down very quickly with very low votes. Pretty suspect.  


User currently offlineRotate From Switzerland, joined Feb 2003, 1491 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5946 times:

Noticed the same since months .... Russia and Iran are the countries. Those people stick together and do "rate up" pictures from their buddies ... I am afraid there is nothing we can do about that ...


ABC
User currently offlineChukcha From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5877 times:
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Quoting Rotate (Reply 3):
Russia and Iran are the countries.

Also sometimes Ukraine.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 3):
I am afraid there is nothing we can do about that ...

Yes you can. Vote yourself for the worthy images.

By the way, just a few days ago there was a heated argument about this issue on the Russian A.net forum. I must say that most photographers taking part in that forum, such as Fyodor Borisov, Vala, etc. were arguing dead against this sort of voting on the "compatriots" basis. Unfortunately, there seem to be plenty of others that think otherwise.


User currently offlineRonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 762 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5860 times:

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
es you can. Vote yourself for the worthy images.

Agreed! It's like people complaining about elected officials and not going to the ballot box to vote on a better candidate!

From what I read and from what it seems, PC voting is not used very often by the majority, if it was used and used for superior shots, it would be fine.



All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
User currently offlineDvincent From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5852 times:
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Suresh,

There's been a lot of grumbling from people I correspond with on this very issue. Unfortunately, I don't think anything can be really done about it because I would see controlling what people could vote for as censorship. It's the freedom of this site for anyone to vote on what they please for their idea of photog's choice. If their basis is for their brothers... then so be it. It is, after all, their choice.

I actually think the bigger travesty is people who have PC votes and don't use them. I can be guilty of forgetting to vote, but I try to do it on a regular basis.

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 4):
By the way, just a few days ago there was a heated argument about this issue on the Russian A.net forum. I must say that most photographers taking part in that forum, such as Fyodor Borisov, Vala, etc. were arguing dead against this sort of voting on the "compatriots" basis. Unfortunately, there seem to be plenty of others that think otherwise.

Unless there's some kind of foul play going on, it is what it is. The only way to get what an individual wants to see in PC is to vote for it.



From the Mind of Minolta
User currently offlineFYODOR From Russia, joined May 2005, 661 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5815 times:
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Hi folks,

As the matter of fact just few days we had same discussion on one of Russian leading aviation photography forums - exactly about last certain cases. I wanted to react here as topicstarter myself but after car accident I was involved couple of weeks ago I type slowly and it is still a bit difficult - sorry for belatd reply.

First I have to agree that problem is exists. However I would not follow on such primitive approach like to share it on countries. As Chukcha had mentioned above many cases of 'Russians' were from Ukraine community (in my view no less often cases with Russian photogs). But for the both comunities I guess such "alwaysontopmen' are representatives of clear minority. I even could not blame any certain spotting groups (even uniting young photogs) as far as in my view this is the matter of personalities. Sadly that it goes more often here - in ex-USSR world. I would not like to develope the nature of this case on .net - no actual need and let us to discuss it amoung ourselves within the communities.

My point is in thquestion what can we do to give a new breath to Photographer's Choice option (which I think is great).
Two easy options:
- First was explained above, best as

Quoting RonS (Reply 5):
Vote yourself for the worthy images.
Quoting RonS (Reply 5):
people complaining about elected officials and not going to the ballot box to vote on a better candidate

There is very wide group of A.net frequenters, active on forums, watching pis, making comments etc. Why not to spend one more minute to commit yourself make your judjement on best shot of the day or at lest week?
- Second is less obvious bu here is always feedback option. If you see photog plays doubtful gme - write him and ask his opinion. If it will happen once it might be senseless, however if 5-10-more people will say, even privately 'mte, we don't tust you' it could be very convincing.

Thats in brief.

Regards,

Fyodor


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
Perhaps, the rest of the photographers need to band together to make a concerted effort to tag appropriate pictures so that the photographer's choice really means that as opposed to a buddy list.

Suresh,

Thanks for bringing this up and I wholeheartedly agree with this observation. This is something that has been bugging me for some time. But, apart from convincing fellow photographers to use their PC votes wisely, I'm just not sure what else can be done about it. In a sense, PC votes here are turning out a little like the Eurovision song contest.  

Tony

[Edited 2010-04-25 09:29:28]


Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5751 times:

Quoting Dvincent (Reply 6):
Unfortunately, I don't think anything can be really done about it because I would see controlling what people could vote for as censorship.

Maybe so, but that's not to say that the photos ending up on the front page are of a low standard! In fact the standard is so low I've given up any hope of a reversal.
Spence.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineJohnKrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5732 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

So I was lucky as a non Russian to get a PC last week?  
I vote for the pics I find great, be it Russian, American or whatever. But I have also seen that rather bland pics of Iranian 707 or 747SP, or another loop jet fighter get on the top15, as does a lot of the Russian iron. When I vote for an image I often don't care what the motive is, it just have to have that extra that makes it a great photo. A pic of a great aircraft does not automatically make it a great photo, which is often the case on the PC. I for one loved the Swiss golden photo, but didn't really care for the Saha 707. The Saha 707 was a nice and interresting pic with the IL-62, but not a great photo. And there are probably people who think that my PC with the KLM 747 in the moon have been done before, and that it didn't deserve a PC. People are allowed to vote for any image they like, and that's not a whole lot to do about it but to cast a vote yourself.
I just hope that people put votes on what they like, and not patriot or friend votes.



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5548 times:

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 7):
I even could not blame any certain spotting groups (even uniting young photogs) as far as in my view this is the matter of personalities. Sadly that it goes more often here - in ex-USSR world. I would not like to develope the nature of this case on .net - no actual need and let us to discuss it amoung ourselves within the communities.

I think a lot of the Russian photos that I look at there do exist on their merit, and not due to manipulation of the photographers choice.


User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2614 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5347 times:
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I see this pattern exist with certain "spotting groups" as well

User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

To put it bluntly, as some of you don't obviously get it!! There's better pictures that deserve the PCA than the mundane ones that are up there of late. Is that plain enough? Got a problem with that? Tough! And sure, if no one's gonna vote on a decent pic, then the run of the mill sort of shots will end up there. Sorry for my directness, but please!
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlinemjgbtv From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

So does it actually say anywhere what the criteria are for the PC vote? Unless it does, who is to say that voting for your buddy's shot or a shot based on some nationality is any less legitimate than a 'high-quality' shot? (In the unlikely event that you could actually get some agreement on that!)

User currently offlineDvincent From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5177 times:
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Quoting mjgbtv (Reply 14):
So does it actually say anywhere what the criteria are for the PC vote? Unless it does, who is to say that voting for your buddy's shot or a shot based on some nationality is any less legitimate than a 'high-quality' shot? (In the unlikely event that you could actually get some agreement on that!)

From the front page:

Quote:
How to vote on the Photographers Choice
Every photographer with at least one photo on Airliners.net can vote on any photo added to the database within the last 7 days as the Photographers Choice. The winning photo will be posted on the frontpage of Airliners.net and is updated every day at midnight CET and noon CET (to always reflect the most recent 24 hours). Although the recalculation of the votes is done twice a day, the same photo can stay at the top for several days. Every photographer has max one vote every 12 hours. This means that if you choose to vote now, you will have to wait 12 hours before you can vote again. You can not vote on the same photo twice and you can not vote on your own photos.
You need to be logged in to vote and your username needs to be connected to the photos you have in our database. When you are logged in, a "Vote on this photo" link will be visible below each large version photo that has been added to the database within the last 7 days. You can view the latest additions by clicking here.

Please make use of this privilege! As a photographer you have the rare power to decide what photo and photographer will be rewarded with the Photographers Choice Award. Make your decision with care, choose the photo based on the qualities of the photo itself, nothing else.



From the Mind of Minolta
User currently offlinemjgbtv From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting Dvincent (Reply 15):
From the front page:

Quote:
How to vote on the Photographers Choice

Thanks. I missed that last sentence.


User currently offlineunattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 11):
I think a lot of the Russian photos that I look at there do exist on their merit, and not due to manipulation of the photographers choice.

A plain white IL-76 on final with nothing but a cloud behind it? It didn't last long however...

Quoting spencer (Reply 13):
There's better pictures that deserve the PCA than the mundane ones that are up there of late. Is that plain enough?

It's sad that they have to vote for their friends photos just so they can get a few extra views or a little more front page time, sad but legal.

Quoting spencer (Reply 13):
And sure, if no one's gonna vote on a decent pic, then the run of the mill sort of shots will end up there.

Well, when I do vote from now on, I can tell you which ones I won't be voting for.



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1309 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4870 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Thanks for the replies. I am glad that it is on the radar of others too.

So the solution should be to dilgently vote every 12 hours for what is BEST not one's buddy or country PERIOD.


There is some great stuff that disappear without true recognition hence my thread.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 17):
A plain white IL-76 on final with nothing but a cloud behind it? It didn't last long however...

No, I'm thinking of rare and awesome photos they sometimes deliver us.


User currently offlineRonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 762 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting eksath (Reply 18):
So the solution should be to dilgently vote every 12 hours for what is BEST

I think so, the more people using the voting system, the harder it is to simply cast a few votes by a particular group and get a PC award. More people simply have to use the system.



All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
User currently offline10boomer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 57 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

The current PC award from a "certain" country is well deserving. I know I voted for it


Fly Gucci
User currently offlineChukcha From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4688 times:
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Quoting 10boomer (Reply 21):
The current PC award from a "certain" country is well deserving.

I agree.


User currently offlineunattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 19):
sometimes

Im glad you included that word.

Quoting 10boomer (Reply 21):
The current PC award from a "certain" country is well deserving. I know I voted for it

I agree. But there are currently 6 photos from Russia that are up for "Photographers Choice". Maybe we should be paying to see their photos...



Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlineunattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

There is currently one photo that has been on the Photographers Choice list for 10 days now. I thought photos were only allowed for 7 days...


Slower traffic, keep right
25 cpd : "The outcomes stated in this message may be materially different and any liability is hereby disclaimed" I think that could be my new signature. My v
26 viv : If we ignore the system - and never vote - it will become discredited and without value.
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