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Request To Be In Android App For 1000+ Club  
User currently offlineatomother From United States of America, joined May 1999, 440 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 8 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5719 times:

Hi all,

I received an email recently to participate in an Android App by giving permission for my photos to be used at no charge. I was wondering what others had thought of this that received this email request?

Personally, I usually don't mind letting "not for profits" use my photos but anytime the person/company using my photos is making a profit off of my photos I feel that I should get a cut of that profit. In this case, this App will have a free and pay version.

It does sound pretty neat and I look forward to checking out the free version when it hits the marketplace but I don't think I will be participating at the moment.

Thoughts?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGaryck From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5650 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

I had the same one......... I would suspect lots people would've got the same one.

Mine went to the recycle bin.

Gary



Keep your Ladders close, but your camera closer
User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

I saw no problem with the request as the app merely links or provides a link to shots on a.net. I see it as no different to a user manually using a search engine to find a picture.

I find it odd that a crew member would simply bin the message when a.net's own contact photographer template includes this: "To uphold the good reputation of the photographer community, please try to reply to photo usage requests".  


User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting Jez (Reply 2):
I saw no problem with the request as the app merely links or provides a link to shots on a.net.

So, Jez, you're fine with a company making big bucks from what basically has your photos as its only visual attraction?! Well, each to their own but mine also went in the bin!!!!!!!
Spence



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

Quoting spencer (Reply 3):
So, Jez, you're fine with a company making big bucks from what basically has your photos as its only visual attraction?! Well, each to their own but mine also went in the bin!!!!!!!
Spence

If you are going to look at it like that, the same thing could be applied to any search engine, which is basically used to find other people's work. Google are quite good at making big bucks. Object to people using Google to find your images? If so, then maybe it's best to refrain from using the internet.

Some can be so very precious about their 'work'.


User currently offlineGaryck From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5621 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting Jez (Reply 2):
I find it odd that a crew member would simply bin the message when a.net's own contact photographer template includes this: "To uphold the good reputation of the photographer community, please try to reply to photo usage requests".

Thanks for your valued input, but I if decided not to reply to what I feel is a mass email request that is my decision, I always reply to personal emails and will continue to do so. As it turns out, my first suspisions are correct, this is a mass email.

Spencer has hit the nail on the head............

Dear sirs, we want to use your images for free, We will charge others for the app and make us money.

Without the images from us they don't have a product.Sorry but no. If the company wanted to give me a fee for the use of all my images then great, but they want them all for free.

Gary



Keep your Ladders close, but your camera closer
User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Well it creates no extra burden on me. The app merely links to the already publicly available low-res images here on a.net and that is all I (and I'm guessing the multitude of others) have given permission for. If it leads to more people looking at my shots and possibly a request to publish an image (for money) then great.

People are already using images here for free by viewing them. The whole model for this website is based on people giving away their images for free! It's no different in my eyes. Some people need to wake up.


User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5581 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Jez (Reply 6):
The whole model for this website is based on people giving away their images for free!

I would have to argue with your choice of words here Jez. I have never thought for one moment I am 'giving away' my images for free by allowing A.net to host them. Sure, people can 'look at them' without paying, but if they want to do anything with them at all then they should ask me, because I own them. Certainly if they intend to make money as an indirect consequence of my photography then I need to work out whether the trade in return makes it a worthwhile transaction.

I got this email too. The offer to me was the app for free, which isn't much use as I don't have a modern enough mobile - I guess the app would be peanuts to buy anyhow. That is why many will not respond positively - not a 'fair' transaction as far as many are concerned. But at least he asked.

Paul


User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

Quoting Psych (Reply 7):
Certainly if they intend to make money as an indirect consequence of my photography then I need to work out whether the trade in return makes it a worthwhile transaction.

I'm sure the ultimate intention of DM/a.net is to indirectly make money out of your images that you have given away for free by hosting them. No doubt that's why it's owned by a commercial concern or do you think it's run on a purely philanthropic basis? I assume that all uploaders are aware of this and have accepted the trade-off.

If this app makes it easier for people to find my images already on a.net then that's good surely? Maybe, I'm just a glass half full sort of chap.

[Edited 2012-01-15 09:18:08]

User currently offlineJorge1812 From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 3149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5545 times:

Got the same message and think it's OK if they only link the pics (like they wrote). Having the app for free is good and at least a few more hits on my pictures are nice too.

In the last mail they wrote to all the photogs who gave permission. Unfortunately they had all email addresses listed (very unprofessional), and now I know that also some of the "Big Players" on Anet gave their permission for the picture link which supports my own decision to say yes.

Also doubt that they make lot's of money with this app.

Quoting Garyck (Reply 5):
Thanks for your valued input, but I if decided not to reply to what I feel is a mass email request that is my decision, I always reply to personal emails and will continue to do so. As it turns out, my first suspisions are correct, this is a mass email.

Even when I think the same as you about the typical mass-requests I think that when contacting all Photogs with more than 1000 pics on Anet one can't expect a personal email to each of the hundreds (maybe more than thousand) of Photographers here

http://www.airliners.net/about/photographers.main

georg


User currently offlinederekf From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 912 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5510 times:

Well I said yes. Can't see what harm it would do and it may do a lot of good. As a Nokia user a free Android app isn't much use to me though.


Whatever.......
User currently offlineunattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2327 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

Unfortunately, THIS website hasn't picked up the ball and created some sort of cell phone app that could be sold to customers, Heavens knows, there is no money in THAT!

Would we say "no" if it had been an airliners.net paid app? Would we have even been asked? Would there have been a problem with that? I'm sitting at just under 1,000 photos, so I didn't get the email, but I might've said "yes" had I received it.


[Edited 2012-01-15 14:52:42]


Slower traffic, keep right
User currently offlinePsych From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 3048 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5482 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Jez (Reply 8):
I'm sure the ultimate intention of DM/a.net is to indirectly make money out of your images that you have given away for free by hosting them.

You make a fair point Jez. As regards the 'A.net transaction', I guess for me the 'deal' is that my photos are given exposure on a world leading aviation photography website. As has been said, the app may also draw people's attention to your photos, and I can see why some may consider that a fair deal too.

Paul


User currently offlineChukcha From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5445 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Garyck (Reply 5):
Dear sirs, we want to use your images for free, We will charge others for the app and make us money.

Actually they do offer something - a free application. It is not entirely 'something for nothing.'

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, THIS website hasn't picked up the ball and created some sort of cell phone app that could be sold to customers, Heavens knows, there is no money in THAT!

Well THIS website won't even make arrangements to re-introduce prints for sale which might have allowed photographers make a little bit of money; maybe at least it would pay for me getting first class membership.

But all they do is feeding us promises. 'The deal is being negotiated and is nearly finalised'. And so since several years.

And it is THIS website that makes big bucks by using our images for free; otherwise Demand Media would have never bought it.

What do we get out of it? That's right - exposure.

These guys offer pretty much the same - exposure. Plus they offer a free app.

I thought it was fair, and I said yes.


User currently offlineatomother From United States of America, joined May 1999, 440 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

Well, I was interested in working with this guy and told him I may volunteer to be a part of his free app but if he wanted to charge people and make money off of my photos then I would also prefer some sort of compensation. The reply I received made me happy that I declined.

"No problem, I will blacklist you then. Sorry I cant pay 150 contributors a fee even if I know if there will be any revenue from this free-time project.
Thanks anyway."

I am not sure what I have been "blacklisted" from but this seems very unprofessional to me and I am glad to not be a part of this.

As for the discussion above about it being the same thing as uploading to a.net. I am not giving my photos to a.net, they are still my photos, I just get exposure from the site here which I am very happy with as it is the No1 aviation photography site. When this app thing can provide me with enough exposure to substitute compensation then I will be interested, until then I will need compensation but apparently it is a moot point though as I have been "blacklisted" so it seems that I will just have to be happy with what a.net provides me.


User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5416 times:

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, THIS website hasn't picked up the ball and created some sort of cell phone app that could be sold to customers, Heavens knows, there is no money in THAT!

Of course, it's entirely possible that a.net/DM have 'arranged' something with the developer or whole idea is a joint venture? Who knows.

Quoting Garyck (Reply 5):
Dear sirs, we want to use your images for free, We will charge others for the app and make us money.

Without the images from us they don't have a product.Sorry but no. If the company wanted to give me a fee for the use of all my images then great, but they want them all for free.

You've also unwittingly described some a.net attributes quite well. The irony of a screener and I'm guessing also an uploader deriding an individual or a company for attempting to make a few pennies from what some may consider is other people's hard work is comical.

Slightly off-topic, but when you think about it you realise what a perverse dynamic the whole a.net thing is. They get photographers to jump through hoops to give away their images for free, thereby maintaining a high quality resource pool. They employ unpaid volunteers (screeners) to maintain the quality and to cap it off, they can even get some people to pay to be a member. There seems to be an almost bizarre Stockholm Syndrome going on. It's genius. I wish I'd have thought of it!


User currently offlineRotate From Switzerland, joined Feb 2003, 1491 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 5398 times:

Got the same email. I declined the offer ... I am NOT giving away my shots in exchange to get a app for free. Sorry, but this offer is ridicilous ...
But I am pretty sure a lot of people took the offer ...



ABC
User currently offlinejohnkrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5387 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Quoting Jez (Reply 15):
Of course, it's entirely possible that a.net/DM have 'arranged' something with the developer or whole idea is a joint venture? Who knows.

Nope, not the case. We got a email where it said they (assuming it's the same person) wanted to use the thumbnails for their app, to which we replied that it was outside the TOU. Linking to images is OK, hosting in an app is not. In this case we replied that they needed to contact each photographer individually, and apparently they have. It's then up to you to deny or approve use of the images they ask for.



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5382 times:

Jez, I agree on pretty much everything you said, but in this instance I feel the so called trade off doesn't benefit me as much as it does him. On another note, I suppose you could compare (it) with the a.net model to a degree and the reason I choose to upload here (for free if you like) is that uploading has become a massive part of our hobby now. I choose to be a part of what websites like this have to offer as it creates friends, respect to a certain degree and the odd sale.
I could've just said yes to that guy but it goes against everything I stand for, with respect to giving away images and keeping the sales prices at a low, which is not good in the long run.
Add to the fact I already run Radar24 and Planefinder on my iPhone I didn't feel this would provide anything I feel I'm missing right now.
Spence



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineJez From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 69 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5376 times:

Quoting spencer (Reply 18):
Jez, I agree on pretty much everything you said, but in this instance I feel the so called trade off doesn't benefit me as much as it does him.

That fair enough Spence. I can understand that.

I wasn't trying to change people's minds; I'm simply trying to point out some hypocrisies and inconsistencies to counter some of the more hysterical arguments about others making millions out of their images.

[Edited 2012-01-16 04:13:42]

User currently offlineatomother From United States of America, joined May 1999, 440 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5255 times:

Again, I would like to point out that we as photographers are not giving our images to a.net. They are hosting the image online and at any time we can have them all removed. The exposure that a.net is able to provide is worth the trade-off to me. Without a.net I would not get anywhere close to the amount of photo sales I have made. Conversely I am sure my 3 or 4 million page views has brought them a fair amount of advertising dollars too.

In the end, it is worth it and more importantly it is fun for me. A.net is unique though and I don't see that relationship occurring anywhere else, especially with a start-up website or app.


User currently offlineil76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2237 posts, RR: 48
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

Then what about this one then? Is this different?
http://www.aerotransport.org/

Exactly the same thing: links to our A.net photos, without asking permission as far as I know. They make money too, it's a pay-site (you can subscribe).

E


User currently offlinejohnkrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SUPPORT

Quoting il76 (Reply 21):

As long as they are linked using the code found under Photos->Photo Usage Requirements it is OK, all other linking or photo usage on websites is not allowed.



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlinespencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Eduard are you opening that can of worms up again!!   remember the discussions we had last time, a few years ago, re that site?! I think a few people left because of it in the end iirc...
Spence



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineil76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2237 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting spencer (Reply 23):

  Well... My question still is: how is it different from the app? Someone links to your pics from somewhere else. And he makes money (he hopes) from his app development. But technically he doesn't touch your photo. Seems kind of the same thing. I remember the big hoohah a few years ago, but we seem to accept aerotransport.org now. Why would this app be different?

Just wondering. I got that mail too, haven't replied yet though.


User currently offlineChukcha From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5135 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Update from SkySpy:

"So it took HOURS to email to approx 250 people out there. We received 10 mails "return to sender" from the postmaster, 17 definite denials to use the photos and 147 okays

PS: We had some late arrivals. Now the team has 167 photographers of airliners.net and a rough estimate gives >300.000 photos accessible. Thanks again."

[Edited 2012-01-17 19:46:18]

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