vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2958 times:
As a Member of the Global Spotting Community & a fellow Anet Contributor - I want to request you to PLEASE look into the type of photos you are promoting.
I understand driving site traffic is important & no one has a problem with it, neither does anyone have a problem with promoting Important / Newsworthy Images.
Anet is lucky to have a Vast pool of images to choose from for promotion, and I doubt the the site traffic will be affected in ANYWAY, if you just held-off in promoting Freshly Acceptednon-newsworthy, routine & un-Important photos (in the context of promotion) as they are drowning-out Good Images.
Please try to understand that a promoted photo almost instantly gains ~1k hits in a matter of 20odd minutes & another significant amount in the following hour(s) completely skewing the Meritocracy of the Top 5.
I love the website & despite the turbulent romance - i'm Here & most probably here to stay.
Anyways, as a personal request if you can PLEASE only promote shots which have completed 24hours in the system or are Important & Newsworthy.
Thank you for your time & i look forward to a healthy discussion on this
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2936 times:
Like I have said before, why can't the shots that reach the front page be the ones that are promoted, and not vice versa? In other words, let the Top of 24 hours be what it's intended to be and then promote those images after they have reached their spots naturally?
I understand the power of social media and the need for traffic. I understand this more than ever now because I now work behind the scenes for a website myself. It would be great if we could work out a system that makes both sides happy. That's all we ask.
[Edited 2012-01-15 15:42:00]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
RonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 758 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2909 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 1): It would be great if we could work out a system that makes both sides happy.
Ryan hits the point exactly. We can come up with a better method to what is currently in place, I'm sure of it. This is a hobby of very smart members (heck some of them even fly planes!), I'm positive we can talk further on this to make some changes to the social media (SM) postings to keep generating increased site traffic while making things a bit more fair for the contributors.
Let's get some more ideas from the staff and contributors to see how we can improve what is currently being done. Right now there are many unhappy photographers that view the SM efforts as unfair. I understand it is not intentional to be unfair, and Paul may go out of his way to try to be as fair as he possibly can. I think he and the staff are doing a great job, so this issue should not be viewed as an attack against Anet staff. It's a chance to intelligently discuss these issues and find a way to meet the site's needs and the photog's needs.
But when the Top 5 of the last 24 hours, essentially the front page, is being controlled by whatever the powers at be decide to promote on FB, the system is failed because it is inherently unfair. It's not what it was designed to be. It used to be people come to the site and the photo that is the most popular, that the public goes out of their way to view, gets the most views and makes it's way to the front page. On its merit the photo is awarded a coveted spot on the front page, generating even more views for the site and the photographer. Now what we have is a Top 5 of the last 24 hours front page that is part merit, and part put there by someone. And when I say put there, there is really no other way to say it. Almost all the photos that are promoted on Anets Facebook page go to the front page, sometimes knocking out or down photos that got there on their own, and blocking ones that would have gotten there on their own.
I know myself and many others have thanked Anet for promoting their shots. At first, it is great to get all those extra views and exposure. But I have soon realized that my photo didn't deserve to be on the FP, blocking or knocking down someone else's hard work. I want to get those views and reach the front page on my own. It means more to reach on merit, and not an arbitrary reason...such as someone decided to promote the shot on SM. And I certainly don't want to get blocked from reaching the FP by a shot that was promoted, just as much as I don't want to block anyone either.
We've discussed waiting 24 hours to post a photo unless it is newsworthy. I still think that is an option, but Anet staff may disagree still. I ask that you seriously reconsider it again though.
Maybe some of the web designers can think of another way, maybe have a section of the front page that only shows social media photos, I am not sure. What I am sure of is that the system needs to be improved on and that we can come up with something that meets staff and contributor goals.
Perhaps we wait to promote shots once they already reach the front page or top 15 photographer's choice section.
Let's toss some more ideas around. Let's have a discussion here where you can say "hey, I'm not happy with this" and work to try to fix it. SM is here to stay, and I applaud Anet for realizing its power and benefits and trying to increase site traffic. But I think we can establish some better procedures for its use.
Thank you!
All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
dlowwa From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 5149 posts, RR: 36 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2888 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SCREENER
Unless you guys have some empirical proof (and I know Paul will back this up), every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass for images that did not reach the front page on their own, or are not priority. I don't see any image that has been posted on the social media in the past 24 hours that was either a) not already featured on the front page b) priority/newsworthy, or c) outside of the 24-hour window. Where are you guys seeing all of these newly added images displacing the 'more deserving' images because they were featured on the social media? Or is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?
darthluke12694 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2855 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Where are you guys seeing all of these newly added images displacing the 'more deserving' images because they were featured on the social media? Or is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?
I agree with you. I visit this site at least 5 times a day, if not more. I would say almost every time I visit this site, the top 5 pictures are deserving of their top 5 spot. The picture is usually unique in some way, whether it is a cockpit shot, airport overview, unique paint scheme, etc. If I go through and look through all of the shots that were uploaded today, I don't usually see a picture that is "more deserving" then the ones that are already on the top 5. In fact, half the pictures I see on airliners.net Facebook page I don't even remember seeing them on the top 5 at any time (but maybe I am wrong on that).
Just my opinion.
KBNA - "To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home."
RonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 758 posts, RR: 29 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2853 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass
No, that is not correct. The last message on the forum from Paul said he wasn't waiting the 24 hours anymore. From what I have seen, he is not.
Dana, I happen to know you are one of the most hardest working of the hard working screeners here, so that is why you probably are unaware of the impact promoted shots have on the front page. I thank you for that dedication, and if you don't want to take our word for it, let's try it out.
Tuesday morning at 0700 accept a shot and promote it on FB right away. If it doesn't reach the front page I for one won't ever mention this specific issue again.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Or is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?
It's not only you that may not realize, I'm sure there are others, but I believe it to be fact, the impact SM promotions have on the FP. Also, I don't obsessively follow hits. Come on man...It's quite easy to dismiss what I think is a valid concern by brushing us off, saying "oh well if those hit seekers weren't obsessive about stats" blah blah blah it wouldn't be an issue. Let's stay positive, not point fingers (I'm think we're all trying not to, but rather point out an issue) and come up with a better solution to the problem.
[Edited 2012-01-15 18:21:24]
[Edited 2012-01-15 18:33:07]
All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6497 posts, RR: 29 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2851 times:
Quoting RonS (Reply 2):
We've discussed waiting 24 hours to post a photo unless it is newsworthy. I still think that is an option, but Anet staff may disagree still. I ask that you seriously reconsider it again though.
I believe they tried that and it didn't work out so well. Obviously I'm not privy to traffic numbers, so I have to take them at their word. But I have no problem taking Paul at his word.
With that said, I barely log onto Facebook anymore, and I've never used Twitter. Occasionally, I'll notice that one of my photos randomly got a bunch of hits, and I'll see if it was posted on Facebook. The last two photos that I had posted there were WELL past 24 hours in the database.
I have to admit, I have no idea why those two images were posted....but they certainly did not influence the Top 5.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2845 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof (and I know Paul will back this up), every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass for images that did not reach the front page on their own, or are not priority. I don't see any image that has been posted on the social media in the past 24 hours that was either a) not already featured on the front page b) priority/newsworthy, or c) outside of the 24-hour window. Where are you guys seeing all of these newly added images displacing the 'more deserving' images because they were featured on the social media? Or is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?
I have first-hand experience with shots landing on the front page because they were promoted. I had two people contact me and tell me that after I had two shots on the front page...a friend on Flickr (where I posted the same shot), and an airliners.net crew member. I was excited that they made the front page, but after first congratulating me, they pointed out the reality that they were promoted on Facebook. It was still nice to get the exposure, but once I learned that it just didn't feel as special. I almost felt cheated.
[Edited 2012-01-15 18:31:52]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2821 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof (and I know Paul will back this up), every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass for images that did not reach the front page on their own, or are not priority.
As I write this, there is a photo of a Thomson 767 in great light that was accepted to the database 22 hours ago and posted to facebook 9 hours ago. So 13 hours into its first 24, it garners facebook credit and now it sits at the number 2 position behind a priority upload that was also (rightly so) posted to facebook.
dlowwa From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 5149 posts, RR: 36 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2811 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SCREENER
Quoting RonS (Reply 5): and if you don't want to take our word for it, let's try it out.
Tuesday morning at 0700 accept a shot and promote it on FB right away. If it doesn't reach the front page I for one won't ever mention this specific issue again.
I'm not arguing with the impact that featuring an image in the social media has. Having an image featured easily garners 1000+ hits, I don't dispute this.
Quoting RonS (Reply 5): No, that is not correct. The last message on the forum from Paul said he wasn't waiting the 24 hours anymore. From what I have seen, he is not.
Please read my comments again. I said every effort is made. Perhaps you misinterpreted that. I'll try to be more clear. While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority, and every effort is made to wait the 24 hours though this doesn't always happen.
Quoting RonS (Reply 2): But when the Top 5 of the last 24 hours, essentially the front page, is being controlled by whatever the powers at be decide to promote on FB, the system is failed because it is inherently unfair.
Which of the current top 5 (or any in the past 24 hours, as I pointed out) made it solely based on being featured in the social media which otherwise wouldn't have made the front page? None. This is my point. It may happen, but it is very rare, and hardly worth making a big deal out of, imho.
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 8): As I write this, there is a photo of a Thomson 767 in great light that was accepted to the database 22 hours ago and posted to facebook 9 hours ago. So 13 hours into its first 24, it garners facebook credit and now it sits at the number 2 position behind a priority upload that was also (rightly so) posted to facebook.
Exactly, thank you for furthering my point. One made it to the front page on merit, and was then featured in the social media, and the other was priority. What is the issue here? Which of them did not deserve to be featured?
Whenever I'm online, facebook's generally on too. It only takes a quick cross data check to see when the photo was accepted. I can name at least 2 instances where my photos have been destined for the front page by being far ahead of the photos accepted after my own, only for 5 pictures that were just as newsworthy as mine to be published however mine was never published within the 24 hr slot (unlike others), ended up 6th of 24 hrs and never had the fair chance it deserved.
I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page.
Of course there's no doubt that there is a chance that the image may not have made it to the front page; but we'll never know now.
spencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 23 Reply 12, posted (4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2666 times:
This is quite funny as recently I had an image promoted on FB, that has been live here on a.net for over a year. I always felt it deserved a lot more "hits" than it had so I was very pleased to see it gain around 2000 extra views thanks to this implementation.
Now, having said that and in preparation for some flak, I do agree there's some weird choices (IMO) as to what goes on FB. I suppose it's swings and roundabouts at the end of the day and what pleases one person could subsequently annoy another. Personally I don't really care what gets shown. It will never be a fair spread no matter how you look at it.
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
RonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 758 posts, RR: 29 Reply 13, posted (4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2638 times:
Quoting spencer (Reply 12): I do agree there's some weird choices (IMO) as to what goes on FB.
I'm going to concentrate on the when, not the what. If the staff choose to promote a different Cessna 152 that is tied down on a ramp every single day, so be it, it't not my site and I'm going to try not to question it. My issue is the when. If that same Cessna 152 (sorry cessna lol) get's promoted right after acceptance, it will likely reach the front page, blocking out shots that were going to get there on merit from the site viewers.
I would like to find a way to keep the Top 5 of the last 24 hours based on Merit, like Vishal mentions. Waiting 24 hours would do that, and I'm sure there are other ways.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): Which of the current top 5 (or any in the past 24 hours, as I pointed out) made it solely based on being featured in the social media which otherwise wouldn't have made the front page?
I'm not going to point out anyones shots and say they wouldn't have made it. But it is quite obvious to me some do make it solely for the reason staff here promoted it on FB. I for one, know from experience, at least two of my own shots would not have made the front page if it wasn't for someone promoting them. Great, right? No, because my shot blocked someone at the #6th place, someone who's shot the regular site viewers were interested enough to view on their own and that person missed out because my shot was promoted.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority
Dana, I don't sit around and collect this data. You seem willing to say it does happen, but it is by far the minority. I don't think I would say it quite like that, I think it happens a bit more often. But whatever, lets move forward so it never happens. Because even once, it is an unfair system and flawed, that one photographer at #6 missed out on thousands of views, exposure and accomplishment, all because a newly accepted shot was arbitrarily promoted on FB by staff? Even if it happens as you say, in the minority, I find it wrong and quite easy to fix. Let's fix it and not worry how many times it happens, because like I mentioned above, even if it happens only once, it isn't right. thanks
All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
darthluke12694 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11): I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page.
Of course there's no doubt that there is a chance that the image may not have made it to the front page; but we'll never know now.
Yes I agree with that too. But surely you know when a photo has the chance to make it to the front page. An average side shot of a plane probably isn't "unique" enough to make it to the front page. I don't mean any disrespect but maybe you are expecting too much out of your pictures.
I do apprecite the hard work that goes into putting pictures on anet.... Because it is hard work. But just because your photo doesn't make it to the front page doesn't mean that your moral should take a beating. If everyone was like that then no one would be uploading pictures to anet.
KBNA - "To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home."
spencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2544 times:
Just for the record I've only recently seen this a.net thingy on FB. I was unaware generally how it works and what goes on! After seeing two(!) of my photos being shown, that have been live for well over a year, I thought it was down to fans requesting them. I haven't read through this entire thread (sorry) so if it is something like that as well then I stand corrected.
But yes Ronny, I agree it could be very "unfair" promotion for images not already in the deserved top spots. Then again I don't click on anything I don't like from a thumb anyway.
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6497 posts, RR: 29 Reply 16, posted (4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2539 times:
Some food for thought:
I don't know the data regarding where A.net's traffic comes from. But say 75% of it comes through Social Media. Are we supposed to discount 75% of the views our photos get as "unfair"? What if 95% of the traffic comes from Social Media? Did my photo actually get 50 "real" hits, instead of 1000?
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11):
I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page.
Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?
Much as I love this site, it is not the be-all and end-all of my airplane photography hobby. I've had photos that I thought were sure-fire 1000+ view photos, that have actually gotten 100, and other photos I thought were relatively mundane, that for whatever reason garnered hundreds and hundreds (even thousands) of hits. One of the recent photos of mine that was posted on Facebook (months after its acceptance) actually made me cringe a bit, as I don't think it's one of my better ones. But hey, maybe other people liked it.
Yes, I appreciate the hard work that goes into an image - trust me, I probably put more time in per image than most people. The difference is that my morale does not get beaten to the ground based on A.net's image views. Maybe I simply haven't had enough images in the Top 5 to really care....
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 17, posted (4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2526 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?
For me, reaching the front page was one of many goals. The first time I was so incredibly proud. I had spent years looking at the most amazing photos earn their coveted spot on the front page and I dreamed of a day when I could know what that's like. I was much younger, so I cared more than I should have I guess. It meant a lot more to me back then. But it always felt so far out of reach so when I actually did it, I was incredibly proud.
I still like having shots reach the front page and its still an accomplishment I am proud of...when I rightfully earned that spot.
With that said, no. It certainly isn't life or death.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 18, posted (4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2494 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof
Dana, i am a little taken-aback to with that statement of yours, i dont mean to say that you need to be watching Everything that is promoted etc...... No!
However, i wouldnt make this post if it wasnt a major issue.
I barely upload a photo a month but, i do follow the site all the time, on my mobile while to-from work / elsewhere, at home etc
So since You seem oblivious to its existence, i'll try explaining with my own shot since you & others may get the chance to call me names if i provided examples of others.
So when i saw it there, i though to my self 'oh-well, matter of time..... and went about browsing other images.
Just then, there was this pop-up on my twitter-app, exactly 10 mins later my photo went to # 7, a photo cycled-out off the Top-5 & my photo went to # 6.
I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer & since it was my day-off from work, went-out to play Cricket with my mates, after 2~3 hours of playing we sat around chit-chatting, went out to snack.
I came home early in the night, took a shower, read the newspaper, double-click on Google Chrome - Home Page Top of 24 | My Photo still #6 - that is so Sweet
It just turns-out that this so-so photo also happened to be voted as Photographer's Choice
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?
Dana, mate, i respectfully request you to please reserve the sarcasm for someone who just wants to make an issue & dosent give a damn about things.
Thats the last thing i expected to hear for bringing-up 'a wrong' in (what is) the most appropriate place to bring up such a thing for discussion - The Aviation Photography Forum.
So you can call it whatever you want to but the simplest way to provide examples is:
Click that and Sort in order of popularity. You can do that for any day of the year. Many will be able to tell what was blocked & what was promoted.
Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 4): half the pictures I see on airliners.net Facebook page I don't even remember seeing them on the top 5 at any time (but maybe I am wrong on that)
Ryan, A.net promotes lot of images everyday.
Not all are freshly accepted images & therefore you wouldnt see them in the Top 5.
So Yes you are Wrong on that.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?
People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do + spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Maybe I simply haven't had enough images in the Top 5 to really care....
ghajdufi From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 166 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2479 times:
I would like to join the group of photographers who aren't happy with effects of the SM postings.
I do understand that site traffic is the most important element of DM's business model but I find it equally important to let site management know that some of the contributors aren't entirely content right now. I am sure we will find a solution to satisfy both parties.
One more thing about the Facebook, Twitter posts. Has it been to considered to add the photographer's name to each post? I would find it a great addition.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6497 posts, RR: 29 Reply 20, posted (4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2474 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 17): For me, reaching the front page was one of many goals. The first time I was so incredibly proud. I had spent years looking at the most amazing photos earn their coveted spot on the front page and I dreamed of a day when I could know what that's like. I was much younger, so I cared more than I should have I guess. It meant a lot more to me back then. But it always felt so far out of reach so when I actually did it, I was incredibly proud.
I completely agree. And I still am proud when one of my shots gets there.
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18):
People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.
Are you saying I don't put effort into shooting and uploading?
Spending BIG on my gear is not anyone else's concern, and is completely irrelevant. Actually, come to think of it, so is the effort required. It may take me much more effort to get a good image than you, or any more experienced photographer. So does that mean I am more deserving of a spot in the Top 5?
So......those of you who have had many images in the Top 5 are complaining that you don't have more, while those of us who haven't had many are quite happy with what we get?
Meaning no offense, Vishal - this is all in the spirit of lively debate, of course.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2446 times:
Request: Vikram - i dont want to go off-topic, the OP explains the problem.
This thread will be red in the eyes of the moderation team & any deviation will be pounced-upon to lock this thread up.
I DO NOT WANT THAT. End of our discussion & back to the OP.
sovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2206 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2440 times:
Vishal, do you upload every photo expecting it to make top 5 or photog choice? If so, you need to step off the pedestal. I notice many of your most recent uploads have a high amount of hits I suppose due to top 5 or photog choice. You seem to scrutinize the hits so in that fashion, if you consider your 747 photo "so-so" (which I actually consider more than just so-so) how did some of your other photos get such high hits? No offense, but there's nothing special about a side-on of a static French Rafale or F-16, makes someone wonder what you're doing "behind the curtains" to guarantee they get "deserved hits"?
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer
You need to calm down my friend. Big deal, your photo didn't make top 5. Yet it made photog choice, got over 20k hits and you're still complaining?
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): Just then, there was this pop-up on my twitter-app, exactly 10 mins later my photo went to # 7, a photo cycled-out off the Top-5 & my photo went to # 6.
This is a.net, you should fully expect an A-380 photo to out-do a 747 photo
That said, I do agree that social media promotion should be done after the 24 hour mark. Simple as that and it's only fair. I'm not much of a hit counter myself, even though my photos have made top 5 many times, there's also been many times that I didn't even notice my photo made top 5 until days after it happened.
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 23, posted (4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2422 times:
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): if you consider your 747 photo "so-so" (which I actually consider more than just so-so)
Ivan that was a tongue-in-cheek reference
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): No offense, but there's nothing special about a side-on of a static French Rafale or F-16, makes someone wonder what you're doing
Besides, try finding proper military shots from India except from Yelahanka where the bi-centennial airshow is held and you have your answer.
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): your photo didn't make top 5. Yet it made photog choice, got over 20k hits and you're still complaining?
Not complaining at all about my photo, i was replying to Dana as he said such promotions werent happening.
And my photo eventually made it into the Top 5 (albeit for a brief while) after spending hours at # 6
RonS From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 758 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2372 times:
Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): You seem to scrutinize the hits so in that fashion
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20): So......those of you who have had many images in the Top 5 are complaining that you don't have more, while those of us who haven't had many are quite happy with what we get?
It's not about hits. Say it with me folks! "It's not about hits!" If it was, I would be asking Anet to promote my shots every chance I get. Because...wait for it...I do actually care about hits! Ahh, I said it, I feel so liberated! lol No shame here
I'm just playing around guys, but seriously, this argument is not about hits. You're more than welcome to take that approach, and say to me "oh he's just upset because he likes hits." It's an argument that gets played out here time and time again when someone brings up what they feel to be a valid concern.
Yes, I do like hits. But the hits I want are the fair hits, based on merit from those that view the site. This is the difference, I don't want to get hits at the expense of anyone else, because someone on staff likes Boston and doesn't like LAX or vice versa. Let's wait till after the 24 hours passes, and then promote whatever you want whenever. What I'm saying is, let's make it as fair as possible for all.
I rather get 200 hits on a photo I like than 20K hits on a photo that Staff decided they wanted to promote on FB, because I didn't get those hits on merit and I took it away from someone else. I appreciate the staff promoting my shots when they do, I hope nobody here thinks I don't. I just think we could harness the power of SM in a way in a way that ensures fairness better than what we do now, while getting DM the site traffic that they are striving for.
Here's my promise to Anet, we'll keep working to provide you with the most incredible aviation photos from around the world, you take our concerns seriously and see what you can do to work with us. Happy photographers produce better images and better images produce more traffic for your guys! Win Win
All opinions expressed by me are my own opinions & do not represent the opinions in any way of my employers.
dlowwa From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 5149 posts, RR: 36 Reply 25, posted (4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2398 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD SCREENER
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): So since You seem oblivious to its existence
Oblivious to the existence of what?
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): i respectfully request you to please reserve the sarcasm for someone who just wants to make an issue & dosent give a damn about things.
Not quite sure what you're asking, but anyway, it wasn't sarcasm, just a simple, honest, observation.
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): Click that and Sort in order of popularity. You can do that for any day of the year. Many will be able to tell what was blocked & what was promoted.
What was blocked? I think you are seeing a conspiracy where there is none.
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do + spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.
Sorry, but if you're spending big dollars and putting lot of time in with the sole purpose of getting a spot on the front page, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 23): Not complaining at all about my photo, i was replying to Dana as he said such promotions werent happening.
Where exactly did I say that? I think I conceded the opposite, in fact.
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 23): my photo eventually made it into the Top 5 (albeit for a brief while) after spending hours at # 6
So the problem is the number of hours your image was in the top 5? Just as you have the right to rail against this perceived travesty, I have the right to think you are taking this waaay too seriously. Go out, shoot, have some fun, and don't worry about what makes the front page or not. If you do it for the pure enjoyment of taking photos, you'll probably experience a lot less of the keyboard banging you seem to be suffering from.
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 26, posted (4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): Where exactly did I say that?
here:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): I don't see any image that has been posted on the social media in the past 24 hours that was either a) not already featured on the front page b) priority/newsworthy, or c) outside of the 24-hour window.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): Sorry, but if you're spending big dollars and putting lot of time in with the sole purpose of getting a spot on the front page, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
I dont know why there's such a problem with Interpretation when you know that it was a reply to a previous post.
Nobody buys Big Expensive gear to get a # 1 shot on Anet, Anet dosent pay us.
But, if i think i have managed to pull-off a Really good shot, it isnt wrong for me to have greater expectations for it¿
ghajdufi From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 166 posts, RR: 9 Reply 29, posted (4 months 6 days ago) and read 2282 times:
There has always been a misunderstanding about this subject whenever it came up here in the forums.
It is NOT about the HITS , that isn't what Vishal is talking about, the problem is with the way SM promotion is controlling the top5 on the front page. We find it unfair. The site used to work differently before the SM postings took over merit. For some contributors the reason for uploading and even going out shooting is to impress others (apart from having fun with the camera at the airport).
For some photographers the aim is to catch a rare aircraft for some the aim is to impress many many enthousiasts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being different! There is no need to critisize each other for what we are, we are all photographers.
If the SM promotion doesn't bother you please don't try to convince us that we are idiots, just accept it that we are interested in different stuff.
Respectfully,
HGabor
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 800 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2269 times:
Quoting clickhappy (Reply 27): It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?
So when are you guys doing away with the whole view count thing?
Positive comments and ratings, combined with high view counts convey a sense of appreciation for one's work and accomplishment - even moreso when the number of views catapult one's photo onto the homepage. It's only natural. That said, particularly for someone in your position to say "who cares" about the number of views an image receives is, with all due respect, rather baffling.
Is Vish overreacting a little with his keyboard banging? Perhaps, but who am I to say. There are obviously people here who take things more seriously than others, and they certainly shouldn't be criticized for it - particularly if they feel their work isn't being treated fairly or policies aren't being adhered to which may be hampering their efforts to achieve their personal goals. Mind you, I'm not claiming policies are (or aren't) being adhered to. But I do fully support his efforts in addressing the issue.
I'm a fulltime photographer (non-aviation) and yes, I'm proud of my work. But I wouldn't be too thrilled if I uploaded a bunch of photos here which I thought were great - and they received little to no attention. It's human nature for people to seek confirmation for their own work, be it in the form of comments, ratings, or views. Without the views, they get neither.
JakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4121 posts, RR: 9 Reply 31, posted (4 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2232 times:
Guys, why are you getting so worked up about all of this?
This is what sites like this can do - make us competitive, bitter and resentful. I'm always the first one to criticise the site if I think things are not running smoothly, but come on, we're practically arguing about hits here.
I'm not a frequent member of the top 5 club, but I have had the odd one here and there - both before and after the implementation of the social media method. True, I felt much more pride when my images achieved this on their own merits, but at the same time whoever adds them to the Facebook page or wherever must also think they're worthy in some way or another. No-one makes someone click the Facebook image, although I do concede that such exposure certainly helps.
I had to snigger to myself the other day when a month-old shot of mine found its way onto the Facebook page and was boosted by a couple of thousand hits. Very bog standard sunny side-on, and while I wondered what wonderful image had been held back by mine, it never once really concerned me. Sh*t happens, every day, and I'm sure we all have better things to worry about than hits here. If you haven't, then I sure envy your lifestyle!
Enjoy the hobby like we used to (when/if you were ever a slide/film shooter). Enjoy the company, enjoy the jokes, the beer, the weather - and the moment we all still awe at when one of these things once again gets itself off the ground!
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2084 posts, RR: 5 Reply 32, posted (4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2204 times:
Since this debate was sparked by my photo of the First Choice (Thomson) 767, I thought I'd better comment! I was very surprised to see it made the 2nd spot with the number of hits, actually amazed. Given it's just a common shot of a common aircraft at one of the most photographed airports, I was expecting a couple of hundred hits at most. Personally, my motivation for uploading photos here isn't hits, it's the enjoyment of being out with the camera capturing some action and achievement of having them accepted here. If they make 200 hits, that's fine if the odd one makes a few thousand, that's great too. I was at MAN when the photo was accepted and when I got home so see it had been accepted, it had about 50 hits. After processing a couple of photos for upload an hour or so later, it still only had maybe 70 hits. An hour later, around 5pm UK time, it made page 1 so had a couple of hundred hits. That was about as much as I was expecting. Around 6pm UK time though, I remember seeing the number of hits had shot up to nearly a thousand, then it went ballistic. It was at that point it must have been chosen for the social media pages and it eventually went on to get just under 12,000 hits before the 24 hour period was over. I can't see why that photo may have been chosen over some of the others, the only difference to many other common photos of it was the lighting. I can see why some get frustrated by the way photos get more hits than others, but is it so much of a big deal? Surely the main emphasis in our hobby is being out by the runway enjoying the action and photography, and not on the number of clicks? While it's nice to get hits, and is almost a sense of achievement to gain them, I can think of far greater things to concentrate on than the number of hits. It's an interesting debate, but for me, not the most important thing in our hobby.
Darren
[Edited 2012-01-17 02:38:17]
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3878 posts, RR: 96 Reply 33, posted (4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2160 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
Hi All,
Thanks for your input and feedback. Vishal, you have 129 shots on site, a quick check of them shows at least 6 posted on Social Media, hopefully the views generated by those 6 shots being posted will spare your keyboard more trauma
Social Media does influence the Top 5 just as the Top 5 influences what is posted on Social Media. We do our utmost to take the data we receive and post in response to certain demographic criteria, what time zone it is and many other factors. That said, a shot that makes the Top 5 on its own may receive minimal extra views from Social Media and vice versa. Viewer preferences can be vastly different between the two. As Darren pointed out, he thought the 767 was "common" but for those who will never see one in real life, it is of high interest.
One thing we do watch very closely is the time stamp a shot is accepted, there are times when you'll click on the Top of Last 24 Hours link under the Top 5 and it doesn't display the same shots as some have timed out and more recent additions have made it to the homepage so we'll post it because nothing will change it from appearing when everything re indexes at the Top of the Hour. If it looks like it'll pass another shot with more views, we'll post that too or just wait.
Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now. As for "within 24 hours" the indexing of the database takes place at midnight Santa Monica time. As a result, if a shot is accepted at 03:00 it stays in the system for the next 24 hours marked as accepted on the date it was, then after the 24 hours is up at 03:00 the next day it'll still show that date for the next 21 hours until the database in indexed again. In effect, there can be up to 400 to 600 photos marked like that and if posted on social media it has no influence whatsoever on the Top 5. That can cause confusion as some think we're posting to influence the Top 5 when we are not.
Social Media helps to grow the overall reach of the site, but it is just one part of what DM have done, the arrows and some search tweaks have all combined to generate the fastest rate of views the site has experienced, it's just that it is spread across the entire database more than it was in the past.
There are a lot of other dynamics that influence the Top 5 too, some shots are posted on large local country forums which generate a lot of views in their own right, that is the photographers decision and right to do that. Some use their own social media sites and specifically market the shot, again, that is their choice to do so.
You would have noticed, we have now started to post links to the latest additions, the shot is randomly chosen by an automated system and when the link is clicked, it shows the latest 120 acceptances so those who follow us have to look for the shot among 119 others. Each time a screener releases a batch the content in that link is changed so no one particular shot really benefits. The link we use let's us know how many click it and we average about 7,200 clicks, that is a far more equitable way of posting within 24 hours. It is not about who "likes" it but rather the real followers who want to see diversity and they select what they view. Not all view a shot as some expect it to be the random thumbnail and close the page immediately, others spend quite some time viewing many different shots.
We're constantly evaluating how to engage those who follow us on Social Media and you'll notice some changes so we get interact more with our followers via means other than photos. As for the 24 hours, we'll continue to post.
Quoting clickhappy (Reply 27): That's your problem, right there. It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 31): Enjoy the hobby like we used to (when/if you were ever a slide/film shooter). Enjoy the company, enjoy the jokes, the beer, the weather - and the moment we all still awe at when one of these things once again gets itself off the ground!
There is more to it than just views, for many it's a lifestyle, enjoy it as others do by coming to this site to enjoy your photos.
JakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4121 posts, RR: 9 Reply 34, posted (4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2112 times:
We keep hearing this 'merits' thing but really, what 'merits' does a photo featuring a brand new livery or similar have? This one of mine made 'top of the day' a couple of years back...
Nice enough photo I guess but the featured aircraft wasn't going anywhere (i.e. it was parked), the sun was out and it was only a few feet away from me. Hardly a great photographic feat on my part, but as luck would have it it was a brand new airline at the time - which meant that my luck continued with the viewing numbers after a priority upload. Emphasis on luck there. The photo didn't have the 'merits' of the below shot I took recently - that is, my workmanship wasn't responsible for the number of views.
Just luck that people wanted to see my Nesma image. Viewing figures were outside of my control. The above shot on the other hand was attractive no doubt to viewers for entirely different reasons. Goes to show, the current system isn't all bad. As the old adage goes, "Be careful what you wish for"........
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 35, posted (4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2063 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15),
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 31): I felt much more pride when my images achieved this on their own merits,
Most of the "nay" sayers to this topic have, while questioning the relevance of the argument, confirmed that there is merit and appreciation in having a photo of theirs make it to the front page. For some, it happens often, for others, not so much. But it's the fairness and the satisfaction that comes along with seeing enough ordinary visitors whom seek out this website to look at pictures of airplanes click on your image to propel it to a "higher" level of appreciation. Can we manipulate the front page to display anything one person wants? Sure. Is that the best policy? I certainly don't think so.
If we didn't appreciate the appreciation, we would all card dump to flickr and give the big middle finger to the strict screening standards here (as many have done in the past). There is a reason we try, try, try again. There's a reason why we get mad when a shot is rejected. There is a reason why some leave after "too many" rejections. Because we care. We care for this website, we care for the hobby, we care to share our work with the largest aviation enthusiast audience (pictures). We care about the big things and we care about the small things.
Thanks to Paul's response, I see he is taking care to evaluate a photos time of acceptance. That is appreciated.
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 34): (i.e. it was parked), the sun was out and it was only a few feet away from me. Hardly a great photographic feat on my part, but as luck would have it it was a brand new airline at the time - which meant that my luck continued with the viewing numbers after a priority upload. Emphasis on luck there. The photo didn't have the 'merits' of the below shot I took recently - that is, my workmanship wasn't responsible for the number of views.
There are many types of "merit". Many people are interested in a new paint scheme. Many are interested in an aircraft with a beautiful backdrop. The first shot warranted enough "merit" for you to stop ("Thanks to Kevin Bates for the tip-off.") whatever you were doing to photograph the boring aircraft.
I've noticed (and you are correct on this point), the "merit" you speak of comes in the comments left from viewers who actually take the time to textualize their appreciation.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6497 posts, RR: 29 Reply 36, posted (4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2053 times:
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): Most of the "nay" sayers to this topic have, while questioning the relevance of the argument, confirmed that there is merit and appreciation in having a photo of theirs make it to the front page.
Appreciation, certainly. Merit? I don't think I would ever consider one of my photos more deserving than someone else's.
Anyway, what you stated isn't a contradiction. Yes, I love getting photos in the Top 5. No, I don't particularly care whether it's aided by social media or not.
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): But it's the fairness and the satisfaction that comes along with seeing enough ordinary visitors whom seek out this website to look at pictures of airplanes click on your image to propel it to a "higher" level of appreciation.
I just don't get the whole "on the photo's own merit" and "fairness" thing. Just because I see a shot on Facebook, I'm not automatically going to click on it. Another example: I visit A.net pretty frequently. I probably click on 1 out of 5 shots that are in the Top 5.
If we're going to take this "fairness" argument to it's logical conclusion, then the Top 5 of the Last 24 Hours shouldn't even be posted on the front page until the 24 hours is up. Because by posting on the front page, A.net is now generating "non-meritorious" hits (now, maybe I'm an idiot and that's the way it already is....but I don't think so).
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): Thanks to Paul's response, I see he is taking care to evaluate a photos time of acceptance. That is appreciated.
No matter which side I agree with, it's always nice to see the powers-that-be taking note of photographers' wishes.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Added to fb 40 mins ago and suddenly rocketing up, coming out of nowhere with up to 100 views per 5 minutes! Is it a nice photo - yes. Might it make the Top 5 without facebook - maybe yes. Is it fair, guess not.
The question is what you want a.net Top 5 to be. A collection of the facebook photos or should it be the photos liked by airliners-net users that can then be shown on facebook?
Cheers,
Felix
[Edited 2012-01-17 09:57:06]
http://www.greenpilots.net - Pilots creating a brighter future
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 38, posted (4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2030 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36): Just because I see a shot on Facebook, I'm not automatically going to click on it. Another example: I visit A.net pretty frequently. I probably click on 1 out of 5 shots that are in the Top 5.
Vik, the fact is that when a photo is posted to Facebook it get's hundreds, often thousands of hits regardless of what kind of shot it is. This is why some question why the crew feel they need to share newly accepted photos to generate the traffic DM wants. It seems that it doesn't matter when a chosen shot was accepted, it will bring a lot of traffic to the site.
Quoting Africaspotter (Reply 37): The question is what you want a.net Top 5 to be. A collection of the facebook photos or should it be the photos liked by airliners-net users that can then be shown on facebook?
I agree. Perhaps it is time to change the name of the Top 5 or at least establish an official change to what it's supposed to represent. Maybe it should be called "What's hot" or "What's Trending" or "Viral Photos".
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
Africaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2028 times:
Btw, here goes another one right behind it... Just added to the db an hour ago, put on facebook and already more than 1000 hits... As if Sam needed his photos pushed
The next three TOP 5 candidates are all recent "facebook pics". It is not the users who decided, but the facebook site admin. And he seems to like LAX...
[Edited 2012-01-17 10:58:13]
http://www.greenpilots.net - Pilots creating a brighter future
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6497 posts, RR: 29 Reply 40, posted (4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1997 times:
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 38): Vik, the fact is that when a photo is posted to Facebook it get's hundreds, often thousands of hits regardless of what kind of shot it is. This is why some question why the crew feel they need to share newly accepted photos to generate the traffic DM wants. It seems that it doesn't matter when a chosen shot was accepted, it will bring a lot of traffic to the site.
Ryan, trust me, I understand the argument. But I have to assume that those who click on a particular photo want to see that particular photo, whether they find it on A.net, Facebook, Twitter, or wherever. And I really just can't get worked up about photos getting more hits, no matter where they're coming from, whose photo it is, or what the subject is.
Though, a photo that shows up in the Top 5 is also going to get hundreds if not thousands of extra hits, no matter what kind of shot it is....
Ultimately, I have to agree with Karl. When you strip it all down, we are arguing about hits. You can frame it any way you want, but it is what it is. Now there's nothing wrong with wanting and discussing hits, but lets be honest about it, at least!
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Africaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
Yes, we are discussing hits, we are discussing attention, but also the identity of a.net
Facebook is a strange phenomena. Some people use youtube as a search engine and some people use facebook for all their internet browsing. Most people think that the photos presented on facebook are the only good photos that are on a net. While scientists were worried that young people know the internet too well, we now see a trend where they don't know how the internet works at all. That is why things like facebook, youtube and twitter are so popoluar. People don't have to invest time to browse the internet, they just feed on whatever you present them.
Many of the 80.000+ a.net facebook fans do not visit the side. Have you ever looked at the comments and request there. People ask for photos like "A380 at Frankfurt" or "please show a Qantas 747". It is a miracle to me why they don't go to a.net directly and search it themselves...
But that is the way it is. Why have a editor's choice on the frontpage, why so many people living the a.net system? Just leave it to the hands of the facebook admin...
http://www.greenpilots.net - Pilots creating a brighter future
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 42, posted (4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1995 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 40): Ryan, trust me, I understand the argument. But I have to assume that those who click on a particular photo want to see that particular photo, whether they find it on A.net, Facebook, Twitter, or wherever. And I really just can't get worked up about photos getting more hits, no matter where they're coming from, whose photo it is, or what the subject is.
Though, a photo that shows up in the Top 5 is also going to get hundreds if not thousands of extra hits, no matter what kind of shot it is....
Ultimately, I have to agree with Karl. When you strip it all down, we are arguing about hits. You can frame it any way you want, but it is what it is. Now there's nothing wrong with wanting and discussing hits, but lets be honest about it, at least!
In the days before social media postings, photos reached the front page on their own simply because the viewers spoke. Viewers came to the site and weeded through the recent additions and clicked on the photos they found interesting enough to view. Today, some shots get there because they are being chosen by one(?) crew member and are being thrown into a social media machine that has a huge influence on views. Sure, you can say we are arguing over hits. But it's the mechanism behind the hits that we are discussing and one does seem to be more fair than the other.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
McG1967 From UK - Scotland, joined Apr 2006, 466 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1937 times:
We know that there is a link between photos promoted via social media by A.net & the number of hits that the social media generates for that particular photo.
The question that many of us have been pondering is how to give a fighting chance, to those photographers / contributors to the site whose work is not being promoted by A.net on social media during the 1st 24hrs of an images acceptance, of their image reaching the front page or top of last 24hrs.
I think I may have an idea as to how this could be achieved, while still allowing A.net to promote any image that they so desire as soon as it is uploaded.
Currently A.net can track how many views an image receives from a web link, and the photographers can view this info in real time in their photographer's corner section.
Now if there was a way to only count direct hits on an image from the search page of the site for the 1st 24hrs of a shots acceptance, then this may be a way to counteract the current situation where social media seems to have a disproportionate affect on the outcome of the top of last 24hrs.
This would at least level things up a bit for those whose images are not being promoted, however I suspect that at least 50% of the images that have been promoted by a.net would probably have made the top of last 24hrs.
Finally, it has always been considered bad form to promote your own works within the forum, but who many of us use social media to promote their stuff. I know I use my twitter account to post links to some of my recent acceptances (when I manage to sneak 1 passed the screeners ) and to post links to photos taken by others that I have seen that I like, as social media is more of an advertising service in this regard.
Africaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1924 times:
Hi,
interesting idea, but how would the clicks from facebook count? Only after 24hrs? And what about clicks from other facebook pages?
In my opinion it is okay to "advertise" photos, but usually these generate just a few clicks. The a.net facebook page is special in that particular way. It is also okay to put cool photos on the facebook page, but look at the recent Top 5. Three of them got up within very short time and made it on the front page. They would surely have made it at some point, but maybe not within 2hrs. This means that all the patient photographers who were not selected never got their 4 hour share in the Top 5. And even though we all like Sam's LAX air-to-air photos, there is no need to have them on facebook instantly. Rather give some poor underdog the chance to sit there and watch his photo go to the front page the "old way"
But I appreciate that the problem is looked into!
Cheers,
Felix
http://www.greenpilots.net - Pilots creating a brighter future
Silver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, RR: 31 Reply 45, posted (4 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1907 times:
Quoting McG1967 (Reply 43): Finally, it has always been considered bad form to promote your own works within the forum, but who many of us use social media to promote their stuff. I know I use my twitter account to post links to some of my recent acceptances (when I manage to sneak 1 passed the screeners ) and to post links to photos taken by others that I have seen that I like, as social media is more of an advertising service in this regard.
This is a good point, and one I meant to edit into my last reply. Many of us are "guilty" of self promotion via social media. I do it, and I follow a few members in this thread on twitter and they do it too. Now, we don't bring nearly as much traffic to the site and our photos as the official Airliners.net twitter and Facebook accounts, but if we did have that much power, would we still self promote? Or would it be unfair? Hmm
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 46, posted (4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1853 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof (and I know Paul will back this up), every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass for images that did not reach the front page on their own, or are not priority.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): I'll try to be more clear. While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority, and every effort is made to wait the 24 hours
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 33): Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now.
Paul, thank you for coming here to post. Please forgive me but, i couldnt make much out from your diplomatic language. (no disrespect meant)
In the hours after your post till now (and even Felix has posted about it here in the above posts), i recieved just over a dozen emails ALL of them basically stating:
Quote:
from: *********@gmail.com>
date 18 January 2012 03:44
subject Hi
hide details 03:44 (2 hours ago)
Hi Vishal,
i'm sorry to see u getting targeted for all the wrong reasons,
if you see they just promoted these three photos very shortly after their acceptance
@airliners_net: I love the last United livery. I will miss their stylish Tulip forever! It was great to see her flying past us. http://fb.me/KX3iejrr
@airliners_net: Talk about huge engines and wing flex, well here you've got it all! What a beast is the 777-200F!? http://fb.me/NP3Vhz7m
@airliners_net: Nice angle to capture a Delta Air Lines B737-832 moments from touching down at LAX. http://fb.me/1nhGRHKkx
-----
take care
So Paul, if i may quote you again:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 33): Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now.
In simple English, if you can please tell me what the policy henceforth is, Are you folks going to keep promoting Freshly-Accepted Non-newsworthy photos?
In simple English: each of those three images was either already on the front page or next in line to be when they were posted, so nobody 'lost out' due to them being posted. Did you actually check this, or are you going simply by what your anonymous email friend has passed on to you?
Quoting vishaljo (Reply 46): what a co-incidence that 2 of those photos are of screeners
Screeners are not allowed to have their images featured in the social media? Kind of goes against the fairness you are seeking, no? And I know Andy is on the screening team, but wasn't aware Sam or Juan Carlos had joined. You might want to vet the information people are sending you in these emails lest you post a little hastily.
vishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, RR: 10 Reply 48, posted (4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
Dana, i went by the info in the emails as i was away & very busy for a long time.
Yes you're right, i just copy-pasted it in haste (Its been a very long day for me) as i should've deleted that line or quoted another mail, apologies.
Added to fb 40 mins ago and suddenly rocketing up, coming out of nowhere with up to 100 views per 5 minutes! Is it a nice photo - yes. Might it make the Top 5 without facebook - maybe yes. Is it fair, guess not.
-
Quoting Africaspotter (Reply 39): Btw, here goes another one right behind it... Just added to the db an hour ago, put on facebook and already more than 1000 hits...
This is not me vs you, or vs the screeners or anybody.
May sound odd to you but, mate i completely appreciate the work you guys put-in for free, devoting precious personal time for others via your crew duties & i have nothing but the greatest respect for that
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1797 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 47): each of those three images was either already on the front page
They were not.
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 47): or next in line to be when they were posted,
Just to give some credibility to these statements (since we are looking for empirical evidence), they were numbers 6, 7 and 9 on the list when I saw them on facebook. Were they headed to the top 5? Very much so. Were they aided by their presence on facebook? You better believe it.
When I noticed them, the then current Top 5 had photo numbers in the area of 2050083. Sitting at number 6, 7 and 9 were photos in the area of 2050180 x1 and 2050460 x2. Almost 400 photos in between and they were neck and neck.
megatop412 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 120 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1792 times:
This thread has raged on for over 2 days now and I still don't understand what the big deal is. So what some photos get more hits than others because of social media. I could care less how many hits a photo has, when I like a photo nothing else matters. I never look for how many hits a photo has.
It's nice to have pride in your work, sense of achievement and all, but when that pride causes you to say things like "promoted photos are drowning out good images"(i.e., your own) you're letting it control you. There are so many images that get on here that don't get the exposure they deserve for different reasons, and there are so many good images that don't even make it onto the database, that it's pretty much a given that there is no way to ensure fairness in exposure. If every hit was a dollar, I could understand this outcry, but this is really about bragging rights. Be thankful you have the resources to take these pictures in the first place.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1788 times:
Quoting megatop412 (Reply 50): This thread has raged on for over 2 days now and I still don't understand what the big deal is. So what some photos get more hits than others because of social media. I could care less how many hits a photo has, when I like a photo nothing else matters. I never look for how many hits a photo has.
Spot on, this. If you take pictures of airplanes solely for view counts and attention, you've got some self esteem problems you need to work on.
= they were 1st, 2nd, and 4th in line for the front page, no? Thank you for again confirming what I said.
Quoting megatop412 (Reply 50): There are so many images that get on here that don't get the exposure they deserve for different reasons, and there are so many good images that don't even make it onto the database, that it's pretty much a given that there is no way to ensure fairness in exposure. If every hit was a dollar, I could understand this outcry, but this is really about bragging rights. Be thankful you have the resources to take these pictures in the first place.
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
Quoting megatop412 (Reply 50): I still don't understand what the big deal is. So what some photos get more hits than others because of social media. I could care less how many hits a photo has, when I like a photo nothing else matters. I never look for how many hits a photo has.
That's a whole lot of "I"s in that paragraph.
Quoting megatop412 (Reply 50): there is no way to ensure fairness in exposure.
That is correct. But there are ways to ensure unfairness.
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 51): Spot on, this. If you take pictures of airplanes solely for view counts and attention, you've got some self esteem problems you need to work on.
Let's take this to the extreme, because if you can't, it won't work. What if the social media sites only promoted Sam Chui's work. Every time you pulled up the airliners.net homepage/facebook page, there were 5 shots by Sam at the top... How would you feel about that? If we can't ensure fairness, then why even try? Sam produces great work and it's a testament to his skill and ability but he is not the only contributor to this site.
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 54, posted (4 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1792 times:
Quoting dlowwa (Reply 52): = they were 1st, 2nd, and 4th in line for the front page, no? Thank you for again confirming what I said.
All I'm saying is, if I had been number 6 and headed for the front page, I would have been dismayed to see two photos come from no where and push me back to number 8, simply because someone chose to highlight them on a secondary yet affiliated website, knowing full well that placement on that secondary/affiliated website all but guarantees front page placement, if done so early enough.
If you feel that's okay and don't have a problem with it, then I will reserve further comments from this thread.
PMN From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 562 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
Quoting megatop412 (Reply 50):
This thread has raged on for over 2 days now and I still don't understand what the big deal is.
You and me both. I've just sat and wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread, and frankly it contains some of the most petty nonsense I've ever seen written on an aviation photography site.
Shouldn't people be out taking photos of planes rather than sitting here bickering?
Edith in his bed, a plane in the rain is humming, the wires in the walls are humming some song - some mysterious song
Africaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1643 times:
Hi all,
I should have taken screenshots last night... I was actually sitting in front of the TV and browsing the a.net forums, when I stumbled across this thread. As I had noted the problem before, I was waiting for new facebook photos to appear. My photo was also number 6 and I was quite anxious to see it on the front page soon. That might sound a bit excentric, but I always aim to be on the TOP 5. It is a personal goal and I measure my photos by the number of clicks, as my personal taste might not be what most people like. I still upload everything I like most, but it is always interesting to see what the general public thinks and do be recognized. While this might not be important to some people, others might want to get some credit for their work!
So there I was, waiting. Suddenly I see a pic coming up in the TOP 15, having a click rate of 80-100 per 5 minutes (which is about 5-10x the normal rate for a really good photo). The photo was nice, but I couldn't explain it and checked facebook. It was added to facebook 40 minutes ago and now I knew what was going on. Soon thereafter the next photo appeared, also a facebook addition. While the rest of the photos got 1000 clicks in more than 12 hours, these two hit 1500 hits within less than 2 hours, pushing aside all the others that were waiting. And to be honest, I was really angry. Not because there were photos better than mine, but because of unjust system.
Maybe it is being (Continental) European and seeing the world with other eyes than people from other parts of the world, maybe it is just me being crazy. That is on you to decide, but there are many more here who think the same way and it especially those people who do not appear on the front page everyday. I don't complain, because I had my fair share already, but what about those other one or two photographers each day, that once in a year manage to take a really cool photo, just to be beaten by facebook?
http://www.greenpilots.net - Pilots creating a brighter future
moderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1595 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
This thread will be archived as it has run its course. Questions were asked and we believe sufficient answers provided by respective crew members of the site.
We thank you for your interest.
The Forum Moderators
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
Sponsor Message: 
From India, joined Aug 2006, 366 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4041 posts, 
From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 5149 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 4883 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1609 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 166 posts, 
From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2206 posts, 
From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3878 posts, 
From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 17 posts, 
From UK - Scotland, joined Apr 2006, 466 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
