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Canon Eos 60D- Unsatisfactory Results  
User currently offlineDVAPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6529 times:

Hello all,
First of all, I would like to say that I have never seen this many talented photographers on a single website before. Some of your photos are simply stunning. I am striving for this level of quality and that "wow" factor. DTW is my home base, and I will be travelling to ORD in a few weeks to go have a spotting adventure (B748 ). Over a few months of work with the EOS 60D, my photos have improved considerably. They have a new form of 'motivation", some of which I find to be worthy for the A.net DB. I get home after going for a few solid hours at DTW, sometimes collecting more than a thousand photos. I took this photo yesterday (2-21-12), and I decided to post here about something. It seems that I simply can't get the quality that I see on here. So my question is, what is causing this. By the way, the photos are unedited, but I could use a bit of help with that too. Along with the 60D, I am using the Canon 18-200mm EF-S (Image Stabilizing turned on) Lens that the camera came with.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F046.jpg
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F159.jpg
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...TWLongtermsunsetandLHMD-11F006.jpg

Also, with the final picture of the Skyteam 738, I would like to know if there is any way to change the depth of field, in order to bring the entire aircraft into focus. EDIT: It appears that wikipedia.org shows changing the aperture effects the DOF. Is this true and is it feasible for use with aviation photography?
The photo info is for the first one: f/5.6, 1/800s, ISO100, 145mm. The second one: f/5.6, 1/1600s, ISO100, 120mm. And for the third one: f/5.6, 1/800s, ISO100, 170mm.

Finally, I would like to know if anyone is willing to or able to edit my photographs for better quality. I am not very experienced when it comes to this, and no matter how many hours I spend trawling A.net for a bit of inspiration or that "aha!" moment, the photos never seem to reach the level that is shown here.

Thank you,
Aiden O'Nions-DVA9515
The email that I will respond to is theairplaneman@comcast.net rather than dva9515@gmail.com

[Edited 2012-02-21 15:56:47]

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9943 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6504 times:
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Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
I am using the Canon 18-200mm EF-S (Image Stabilizing turned on) Lens that the camera came with.

That might be part (or most) of the problem. I haven't used the 18-200, but an EF-S lens + large zoom range likely = softness, especially toward the long end.

Are those photos cropped at all? That will also make them appear softer.

F5.6 is a wider aperture than is typically used for aviation photography in good light. Lenses tend to be sharper toward F8 or F9. Plus your depth of field will be greater, though if the subject is sufficiently distant, it may not have any effect.

As for the 2nd photo, it's very simple - the sun is lighting the opposite side of the aircraft from the one you were shooting.

Yes, a narrower aperture (higher F-number) increases depth of field.

Other than that, there's just some experience necessary in order to nail exposure and such (your photos are all dark).



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDVAPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6498 times:

Thanks for the quick reply!
I will take this into account on my next trip, perhaps this weekend. These photos are not cropped either, just taken from RAW to JPEG at the same size and maximum quality using RAWTherapee.


User currently offlineWakeTurbulence From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

Try this simple method and post some results when you can. On an average sunny day, put your camera in Av mode and set the aperture to f/8. Keep the ISO at 100 and let the camera meter the light and determine the shutter speed automatically. The shutter speed may change between 1/250 to 1/800 depending on how bright things are and how much the light changes. Shoot with the sun at your back. I am curious to see what kind of results you get. From there we can talk about editing, but it is important to do as much correctly in the camera as possible.

Looking through the 3 you posted above, I almost feel like they were shot through glass windows or something. The 60D should be very capable of great results, but your lens may be slightly limiting some quality. With some experience and trial/error I'm sure you can achieve better pictures.
-Matt



Jetwash Images - Feel the Heat!!!
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6461 times:

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
Over a few months of work with the EOS 60D

[...]

Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
I would like to know if there is any way to change the depth of field
Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
It appears that wikipedia.org shows changing the aperture effects the DOF. Is this true

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I suggest you read up on some photography basics. It's a little baffling you've ventured into shooting manually without even a basic understanding of aperture. Have you even read the manual?


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5691 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6416 times:
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Quoting DVAPilot (Thread starter):
sometimes collecting more than a thousand photos.

That can be part of the problem, despite the myths, Photography benefits greatly from a "less is more" philosophy.

Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

Taking less photos also makes it easier to learn from them.. a thousand or more from a session just overwhelms.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineAirplanepics From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2732 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

I would be shooting high quality JPEG until I was confident that the pictures were coming back high quality.

By the looks of it you are shooting into the sun, which 99% of the time will give you poor results.

As they say, don't run until you can walk - take some photography classes or meet up with a local to ask for advice etc..



Simon - London-Aviation.com
User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6349 times:

Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting. I also think the exposure in your photo is left to be desired. Hope this helps! Photography is indeed an expensive hobby! BTW, like your composition though, nice angle.

User currently offlinestevemchey From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6320 times:

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

While I agree that the kit lens is not the best lens around, I don't think getting a 70-200/f4L is the answer to the problem. If the user doesn't understand the basics of photography, no lens in the world will fix the problem. It's like upgrading a car's engine from a V8 to a V12 when you don't know how to drive stick.

DVAPilot, take some time and read some good technical photography books. Don't worry too much about the artistic side yet (like composition, rule of thirds, etc), since you already seem to have a good feel for that. Focus on how photography works and how the camera captures pictures. The main concepts you should understand are: Shutter Speed, Aperture, ISO, Exposure (exposure triangle), Depth of Field, Motion Blur, Grain/Noise and how all those are related to each other. There are also a few good blogs and Youtube videos out there to get you started.

Once you understand these concepts, go out and play with your camera. Take a look at how different settings affect the end result. The good thing about digital is that when you get home, you can look up all those settings on your computer and learn from them.

Good luck


User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Yup, I think lens is part of the problem you are seeing here. Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

That is correct, buy some lenses and a more expensive camera 7d o 5d, and the quality will improve?
Seriously, a rebel and efs lens is good enough unless you are getting paid or have too much money.
As people pointed out you need to understand more about how camera and lens work.
Also, shooting raw and using a good software will give you some flexibility to get most out of your shots.


User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

The images are way underexposed for one thing. One shot is 1/800 and one is 1/1600. There's simply no need for shooting at such fast shutter speeds on slow moving aircraft. With that lens, especially if you're around f4.5 or f5 at the medium range, try going to 1/400 or so and try that. I recommend learning about the exposure triangle and learning some of the basics physics at play there. I also can't stress enough how much I recommend you shoot in RAW. You can then examine your images and play with changing the exposure to learn what settings would have been better for the shot and learn why it didn't work. You'll learn invaluable knowledge that way.

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
Try to switch to 70-200/4L non IS, which is a true bargain for APSC long range shooting.

Come on. Seriously? You're suggesting a beginner looking for advice on the basics such as exposure to buy L glass? The lens he has is MORE than fine for what he's doing right now. Suggesting lens or camera upgrades are fine for a pixel peeper looking to improve IQ but it's completely unrelated and misleading here. It's almost laughable to suggest that the lens he is using is any part of the problem with the underexposure he's suffering from. One look at the EXIF data would have shown that.


User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4782 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6215 times:
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Quoting stealthz (Reply 5):
That can be part of the problem, despite the myths, Photography benefits greatly from a "less is more" philosophy.

Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

You are absolutely right! I used to shoot exclusively in burst mode. Not because I was spraying and praying, but I always felt my chances of a keeper improved if I fired multiple shots of every scene, just for insurance. Well I recently went on a photo trip and shot exclusively in manual and single shot modes. I came home with more keepers than I know what to do with! It forced me to focus on my composition and take extra care to get the right exposure. What I've found is my problem in burst mode (7D by the way...8fps) is that I would take a series of shots and the sharpest one almost always turned out to be the one with poor composition. By slowing things down and being more selective, I nailed sharpness and composition on almost every frame.

But I'll repeat what everyone has said to the OP. Learn the basics! And then learn everything about your camera. Read that manual 5 times. Get lost in your menus and just play. I'm bored with my camera...I wish there was MORE I could do/learn, but I've just about covered it all.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6183 times:

This video pretty much covers the basics of exposure triangle and what variable you would want to control to get the desired effect on your shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk78nH3d8hU&feature=related


User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6162 times:

Well, I guess I did not notice that the writer is a beginner in photography then.

User currently offline747438 From UK - England, joined Jan 2007, 838 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

I'm very happy with my 60D, the first 60 or so photos here are with it.

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...h=Phil%20Broad&distinct_entry=true


User currently offlineyerbol From Kazakhstan, joined Feb 2010, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6053 times:
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Quoting 747438 (Reply 14):

Phil enjoying his 60D with 100-400mm L lens   Great photos Phil!

It is all about person behind the camera and light.



With best regards from Almaty
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3301 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6041 times:

The Basic Elements of Exposure (PDF)

The most valuable 41 pages you'll ever read in photography.



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineDVAPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5921 times:

Ok, I haven't been on in a little while so here is a reply to all of the comments here. Thanks for patience.
First of all, let me get something straight. I am a relative novice. I have some (but not loads) of experience with the Eos 60D. I understand how it works, and yes, I have read the manual. I also understand the fact that the lighting conditions were not great. Finally, I also understand aperture and how it relates to DOF, now, after reading through "The Basic Elements of Exposure". I was simply confused how to change it. Bare in mind-I'm not all that bright when it comes to cameras and am still practicing and learning. This thread is simply a request for a bit of advice or assistance.
Now to reply to all of you:

Quoting WakeTurbulence (Reply 3):
On an average sunny day, put your camera in Av mode and set the aperture to f/8.

I will try this, when it decides to stop snowing.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 5):
Take less photos and think about the settings and the results you are trying to achieve.

Ok, next time, less pics-better results.

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 6):
I would be shooting high quality JPEG until I was confident that the pictures were coming back high quality.

Taken into account.

Quoting celestar (Reply 7):
BTW, like your composition though, nice angle.

Thanks, but I simply don't have enough cash for the lens, and by the looks of things, it doesn't look like that great of an idea.

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
There are also a few good blogs and Youtube videos out there to get you started.

Cheers for the tip.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 9):
Also, shooting raw and using a good software will give you some flexibility to get most out of your shots.

Perhaps, Photoshop Elements?. But I'll be trying JPEG again until I have that down.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
but I always felt my chances of a keeper improved if I fired multiple shots of every scene, just for insurance

Understand my thinking?

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 11):
By slowing things down and being more selective, I nailed sharpness and composition on almost every frame.

But I'll repeat what everyone has said to the OP. Learn the basics! And then learn everything about your camera. Read that manual 5 times. Get lost in your menus and just play.

Taken into account.

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 12):

This video pretty much covers the basics of exposure triangle and what variable you would want to control to get the desired effect on your shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk78n...lated

Thanks mate!

Quoting 747438 (Reply 14):
I'm very happy with my 60D, the first 60 or so photos here are with it.

Very nice!

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 16):
The most valuable 41 pages you'll ever read in photography.

Reading it now! Thanks!

Ok, well I hope that this has cleared things up. If I didn't quote you, I still took the message into account. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to DTW before next weekend and practice. Thanks for all the tips.
Aiden O'Nions-DVA9515


User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting DVAPilot (Reply 17):
Perhaps, Photoshop Elements?.

I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw. Last week they were going so cheap at B&H, I paid almost 3 times that price. Working with raw is very user friendly in LR3. I have salvaged many shots, eg. where my ext flash failed to fire with all my settings on manual, because of the latitude of raw.
I use LR3 for lighting, WB,noise corrections etc. and PSelements 8 if required for any more post processing.


User currently offlineDVAPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 18):
I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw

I will investigate further...


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5691 posts, RR: 44
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5780 times:
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Quoting trvyyz (Reply 18):
I would recommend Light Room 3 for raw.

Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

Lightroom is not the processing end game, whilst it has some post processing ability and has powerful project/portfolio capabilities I am not absolutely sure the serious amateur like myself(and I suspect most here) needs to spend money on both products.

I am yet to be convinced there is any real need for most "non professionals" to invest in LR & PSE (or CS)

Having used PSE9/ACR for sometime and about to move to PSE10, I am happy to be persuaded I am on the wrong track



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 20):
Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

In PSE you can process raw one by one, In LR you can do a batch, go back and forth files with adjustments which I doubt can be done with PSE. I also read that ACR use in PSE is a crippled version of the one used on LR/CS (CS and LR use the same engine).

LR was going for $69 last week, with that price, it definitely was worth buying.
But using ACR w/PSE is definitely an economical alternative.


User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting trvyyz (Reply 21):
LR was going for $69 last week, with that price, it definitely was worth buying.
But using ACR w/PSE is definitely an economical alternative.

I have tons of softwares let me know if you need any



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9943 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5566 times:
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Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
While I agree that the kit lens is not the best lens around, I don't think getting a 70-200/f4L is the answer to the problem. If the user doesn't understand the basics of photography, no lens in the world will fix the problem.

  

I really should have said that when I originally said the lens might be part of the problem. One has to understand the limits of one's lens. Every single one of my shots here was taken with a non-L lens; many of them with ~$200 EF-S lenses.

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 8):
It's like upgrading a car's engine from a V8 to a V12 when you don't know how to drive stick.

That's what automatics are for.  

(just joking....I drive stick)

Quoting DVAPilot (Reply 17):
Ok, next time, less pics-better results.

At least, less pics and easier time editing! I used to take far more photos on each trip to the airport. But I've gotten less and less eager to spend hours sitting in front of my computer picking through photos and then editing.

Hell, I took somewhere around 400 photos on November 6th (because LAX was on reverse flow and the light was beautiful), and I'm STILL in the process of editing them!



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 20):
Can anyone tell me if the RAW processing capabilities in LR are any better.. or indeed any different at all to the ACR(Adobe Camera RAW) that is built into PS Elements 9/10?(and I believe CS)

LR's noise reduction ability is great. Better IMO than CS5. I wouldn't have been able to get this shot up if it wasn't for LR:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas Young




It's all about the destination AND the journey.
25 Silver1SWA : I was under the impression that LR and ACR in CS5 run on the same engine. I find both to be nearly identical, the only difference being the user inte
26 NZ107 : Quite possibly but I find it much easier to control the noise using LR over CS5. Ron's the one who showed it to me. I remember when I started using L
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