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Questions About Facebook/Airliners.net  
User currently offlineunattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2342 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9756 times:

I have a few questions regarding the new method of displaying our photos on Facebook. I hope this thread remains available and active so that everyone involved may ask the questions and get the answers they need.

I can appreciate what Paul and the others have done in attempting to further distance the Facebook influence from the Top 5 of the Last 24 hours. Adding images directly to Facebook eliminates the need for direct linking to this site and doesn't add a 'view' to an image that has yet to make it to the Top 5.

But, if memory serves me right, airliners.net at one time (and for a short time) implemented a Terms of Service agreement with its photographers similar to that of Facebook . There was an uprising/revolt, and the TOS was dropped for a much friendlier agreement that didn't put the photographers rights in the toilet. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the first of several questions I have regarding this change.


Slower traffic, keep right
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9734 times:

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):

Thanks for starting this thread! I've been curious too.

Now my question is that wouldn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook be violating A.net's TOS? According to A.net's TOS section 4B: "This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service." Isn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook violating the TOS? Or would A.net's Facebook page be considered "through the service"?

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm just curious.


User currently offlineafricaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9626 times:

Well, it does matter to me and I can not approve of the fact that photos are being uploaded to an external site and the photographer doesn't even know! We all know how easily photos can be misused on facebook and we have been fighting it! Now a.net is doing the same...

Cheers,

Felix


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
I have a few questions regarding the new method of displaying our photos on Facebook. I hope this thread remains available and active so that everyone involved may ask the questions and get the answers they need.

I can appreciate what Paul and the others have done in attempting to further distance the Facebook influence from the Top 5 of the Last 24 hours. Adding images directly to Facebook eliminates the need for direct linking to this site and doesn't add a 'view' to an image that has yet to make it to the Top 5.

Whoa, I didn't even know A.net had started doing that. Last time I was on the Facebook page, the links still went to the photos on A.net (clearly, I don't go on Facebook very much   ).

Very interesting, and a valid question. Have to admit, I'm surprised the crew didn't start a thread notifying us about it.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineafricaspotter From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

I am not suprised... I am suprised that my last post was not deleted, like the two before!

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2694 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9602 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

If I were a photographer, it would matter to me too, for the same reasons the OP mentioned above. If people can view the photo on FB, they're less likely to click the link to your photograph to generate additional views, whereas if only the thumbnail and the link are posted, then they're more likely to click on the link to access a larger version of the photo, thus generating additional views for the photographer.

It would be great to get an official line on this matter.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinekukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9531 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 1):
Now my question is that wouldn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook be violating A.net's TOS? According to A.net's TOS section 4B: "This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service." Isn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook violating the TOS? Or would A.net's Facebook page be considered "through the service"?

Good question. Depends how you interpret this last bit from para 4B (passage in bold):

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service, but does permit Airliners.net to make your User Photos available for viral distribution such as by providing HTML code for aviation enthusiasts to embed the “photo of the day” on other websites and allowing Airliners.net to share User Photos with members of the Airliners.net community through, for example, email and newsletters.


One thing's for sure: it's best to watermark your photos in case they end up on the a.net Facebook page.



Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4861 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9525 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineMcG1967 From UK - Scotland, joined Apr 2006, 517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9489 times:

While I am glad for the extra exposure that photos get from being linked to from the A.net Facebook page, or a link from their twitter feed, I do have concerns about photos being uploaded to the A.net Facebook page and falling under the Facebook TOS.

What size are photos uploaded to the A.net Facebook page at?

If a photo is watermarked, does the watermark carry over to the Facebook page?

I am not a Facebook member, so where does this leave me with regards to exercising rights I hold over my images that may be uploaded to the A.net Facebook page and fall under the Facebook TOS.


User currently offlinestevemchey From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

If you hear an answer before one is posted here, please share.

I haven't heard about the recent changes, but am quite concerned. I never post pictures to Facebook, because I don't agree with their TOS in regards to images. For a.net to potentially post them there without my consent is quite troubling.

At least a.net needs to provide an "opt-out" (or preferably "opt-in") policy, where you can flag if an uploaded image can be re-posted.


User currently offlineplanespot From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9415 times:

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 8):
If a photo is watermarked, does the watermark carry over to the Facebook page?

It depends on if the A.net crew remembers to grab the watermarked version (which might involve logging out of their A.net account first). I, personally, don't have a problem with them uploading my watermarked photos to FB, but I DO have a problem with uploading the un-watermarked versions to FB. The first batch of photos posted were un-watermarked, but after bringing it up with the crew, it's been addressed, so I'm happy. My main concern was that watermarks are a pretty decent theft deterrent, and leaving it off for the general public makes it that much easier for photos to get stolen/misused.



Cary Liao - AeroPX
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2694 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9345 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting kukkudrill (Reply 6):
Good question. Depends how you interpret this last bit from para 4B (passage in bold):

But then there's also the sentence before that which states

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service

  



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9318 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 11):

But then there's also the sentence before that which states

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service

Well that's great then, isn't it!  



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5746 posts, RR: 44
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9230 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not sure about this whole FB thing and not convinced I am that comfortable with the redistribution of images.

This may not be the forum for this but it does mention photos.----

Quoting Airliners.net home page:
Join us on Facebook for the latest aviation photos, news and information.

This puzzles me, I thought Airliners.net is where one came for those things yet the home page suggests you go elsewhere.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6457 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9140 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 13):

This puzzles me, I thought Airliners.net is where one came for those things yet the home page suggests you go elsewhere.

Odd paradox there, that's for sure!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9117 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

Regards

Paul



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9109 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but our photos are subject to Facebook's TOS? Which we didn't agree to when we uploaded the photos to A.net?

Thanks for the response, Paul.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinemhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9105 times:

Don't the Facebook TOS mention not uploading images without permission? I'll admit to not being up on legalese and haven't combed through either Anet or Facebooks TOS, but surely Anet is in theory distributing these images without permission, in which case they would subsequently be against the Facebook TOS by doing so?


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlinestevemchey From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9103 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

I see that as a HUGE problem. According to the Facebook's TOS:

Quoting Facebook's TOS:

For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License).

However, looking at a.net's TOS, I can't find the section where I grant a.net the right to a "transferable" license, which would be needed in order to pass the license along to Facebook (and under their TOS). All I can find is:

Quoting A.net's TOS:
When you post User Photos to the Service, you hereby grant Airliners.net a limited, revocable, perpetual (subject to your right of revocation), worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, transmit, distribute, publicly perform and display (including in each case by means of a digital audio and video transmission), and advertise around the User Photos. This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service.

I strongly believe that "license to use, transmit, distibiute, [...]" does not include the right to transfer the license I grant to a.net to another service (i.e. Facebook).

I am not a lawyer, but I would advice the a.net team to quickly re-evaluate this policy. At best, I see users asking for their photos to be pulled. At worst, I could see the potential of content owners taking legal steps against a.net breaking their license agreement.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9085 times:

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 18):
This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service.

That's the key part right there. Links to A.net on Facebook were fine. Actually uploading the photos to Facebook is no longer using the photos "on or through the Service".

And no, they most definitely cannot transfer the license to another party.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4861 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9071 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

Regards

Paul



Paul, we have two potentially huge problems here. First is the question of whether this violates Airliners.net's own Terms of Use, sounds like this violates Facebook's Terms of Service as well.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9057 times:

Two of my photos are on the A.net facebook wall from the last week of features and one is without a watermark (I definitely watermarked it). That isn't good, and I'd like that to be pulled, even though I liked many of the comments on it and I was happy that so many people could enjoy it. I didn't realize that it didn't have a watermark until I looked at it just now.

I'm happy for the share, I'm happy my photos can be enjoyed by so many. One of the reasons I do this is that I think people get some enjoyment from these photos and that's important to me. But I'm also not comfortable with it being up there without any watermark.

In my opinion, I would recommend immediately returning to the old method of linking, rather than putting up the photos wholesale.

[Edited 2012-08-07 16:14:50]

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8990 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting cargolex (Reply 21):

Hi, as Cary noted a mistake was made about the watermarks and I apologise for that, your photo has been removed.

Social media constantly evolves and it has great for expanding the reach of the main site and increasing the profiles of our contributing photographers. We're going to continue to build upon that but to do so we need to change a little.

You may not have noticed but we now post far less per day, only 2 to 4 shots. That is right down on what we were, that said, I am listening.

We'll post the links like the past to ensure proper attribution to the photographer. Same for twitter which we intend to use more frequently than Facebook but the twitter posts will be the same style they have always been.

Quoting planespot (Reply 10):

As you can see some photographers don't have a problem, maybe due to them already using Facebook or having the image on their account already. Others have contacted me and said they're happy for their photos to be used and we'll use their shots with full link and name for attribution to them as permission has been granted.

That should be the right balance to address those concerned whilst enabling us to continue to build the business.

Regards

Paul



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4861 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8979 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Paul, I wish you address would our concerns more clearly. As usual, your reply leaves us with a lot of questions.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
We'll post the links like the past to ensure proper attribution to the photographer. Same for twitter which we intend to use more frequently than Facebook but the twitter posts will be the same style they have always been.

Are you saying you are going back to the old method of only linking to photos in the databes? Or are you saying you will be adding the link in addition to uploading our photos to Facebook?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
As you can see some photographers don't have a problem, maybe due to them already using Facebook or having the image on their account already. Others have contacted me and said they're happy for their photos to be used and we'll use their shots with full link and name for attribution to them as permission has been granted.

So are you saying that you will only upload photos from photographers who have given you permission?

[Edited 2012-08-07 18:26:11]


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8964 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
Are you saying you are going back to the old method of only linking to photos in the databes?

I'm saying that for the majority of photos we'll be doing the old method, the link back to the database and a thumbnail only will display. So that will be the link alone with no photo.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
So are you saying that you will only upload photos from photographers who have given you permission?

In relation to a photo, yes. If they've given permission we'll post the photo with the link, watermark (if it has one) and their name to ensure full attribution to them as they have given their permission.

Regards

Paul



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
25 vikkyvik : Thanks Paul. I hate to be confrontational, but why wasn't there a post by the crew about this change in the first place? You used to do that pretty r
26 PanAm_DC10 : Hi Vik, I don't see it as confrontational and the reason for no post was we were experimenting to see how the changes would work out. I'll do my best
27 vikkyvik : I know, and I appreciate it. I was just expressing WHY I feel the way I do, since I hadn't really said that before. Again, I know. I hate the "Timeli
28 unattendedbag : That sounds good, thank you. For my photos, if I had to choose between influencing the top 24 or displaying anything more than a thumbnail on Faceboo
29 McG1967 : Paul, At the moment there is an option for a photo to be included in the photo sales when uploading. Given your statements above, a similar option sho
30 Silver1SWA : Thanks for clarifying that, Paul.[Edited 2012-08-08 10:06:20]
31 vikkyvik : Ha, good point. Will A.net assume that photographers give permission to upload to FB, or assume that they do not?
32 Silver1SWA : Um, right now I believe they have to assume photographers do not give permission. If they want to get photographers' permission, the idea of includin
33 vikkyvik : That's logical, yes, but clearly they already had been assuming we DO give permission, so.....
34 africaspotter : I don't give my permission.
35 ptrjong : Exactly. I can see that a presence on Facebook is desirable, to attract people to Airliners.net. I fail to understand, and am wary of, anything beyon
36 stealthz : Sorry Paul, I don't see anyone responding to this point. The Anet home page encourages visitors to go to the Anet FB page which is a very second rate
37 andyhunt : I give full permission. And its fun having my pics on FB. Andrew
38 PanAm_DC10 : The main site will always be the priority. Thanks for the suggestion Mark though at the moment we only need to use a few and we'll ask the photograph
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