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Why Are Exact Date And Location So Important?  
User currently offlinenoamen From Israel, joined Jun 2009, 2 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Hi!
My name Is Noam, I am form Israel, and I would like to know why are the exact date and location so important? Here's the story behind the question... I recently uploaded for screening a photo of a Silver Arrow Hermes 450 serving in the IAF, and in the background there is a man photographing the A/C. In the date section I wrote the month and year but not the day, and in the location section I wrote Withheld. That photo was rejected over... Info, and the reason was "Why withhold location and date when it is an open event?". I appealed the rejection and explained that "Due to security reasons I can not disclose the date and location". That appeal was rejected as well!!! Just to explain myself better - the man photographing the A/C was an employee of the company building the A/C!!! I was the only non employee that got a clearance to take photos.
I do not understand why do I have to risk going to jail for revealing something secret like the location of a IAF base? Why can't the screeners understand that there are limitations for some of us? Does not uploading my photos due to technical issues serve our community?
Noam

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineclickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5833 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Airliners.net is an online database, and, by definition, databases contain data. I am unfamiliar with the photo and/or event you mention, but, if it was a new aircraft, at the place it was built, then the location is not really much of a "secret," is it?

On a personal note, and not directed at you in any way, the whole "Withheld" thing is a bunch of nonsense. If people were uploading photos from places they should not be, as soon as they posted them on the Internet, their cover is blown.

Do you really think an official from some place like Vozdvizhenka air base would be fooled simply because the location is marked as Withheld?


User currently offlinedendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1667 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5808 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Noam

The reason that the information is important is that this is a database. For this reason full dates are always preferred and they must be included for open events. Royal has pretty much summed it up !

You have already written to the Head Editors who discussed it with the Head Screeners who discussed this and gave an explanation.
We do expect full dates on airshow images and your image has a sign in front of the aircraft, barriers around it and other people around taking photographs and with flags flying in the background, to all intents and purposes, an open event.

It was submitted some time ago and rejected for info with a personal (and level) and resubmitted with the same incorrect info and rejected again with a similar personal and rejected on appeal too.

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineandrew50 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5750 times:
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Seems like most of the "witheld" in the location category comes from the Russian photogs. I agree with Royal it is not fooling any official. The name is there, so I am sure it would be easy enough to locate the person if the photos were so top secret. Who determines if having "witheld" in the location is acceptable or not?

User currently onlineangad84 From India, joined Nov 2012, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 1):
Do you really think an official from some place like Vozdvizhenka air base would be fooled simply because the location is marked as Withheld?

You would be surprised how ridiculously block-headed many government/military officials can be. Vindictive too.

In a case like this (Vozdvizhenka) the official might think "Withheld" is okay because the information is not explicitly mentioned, nevermind the fact that any layperson could tell where the shot was taken by, well, using their brains. Frankly, satellites have rendered photography restrictions all but irrelevant, but especially in our parts of the world (I can speak for India and Russia) the attitudes of those in power have not changed to keep up with the times.

I think Noam is just trying to stay out of trouble by doing what his host(s) asked him to do - not release location info.

Noam - regarding your issue, why not try and get in touch with the IAF person (or Elbit, or whoever asked you to hold back the location info) and ask if you can release the location? Try searching A.net for images taken from the same air base, or for information/articles/news around the internet that mention Hermes 450 SA operating out of that particular airbase. Once they realize the cat is out of the bag, they will probably let you go ahead and share the location.


User currently offlinenoamen From Israel, joined Jun 2009, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

Hi!
1. As I mentioned earlier... I was the only non employee to get a clearance to photograph.
2. I understand that this site is a worldwide database, but it's not like I try to upload a civilian A/C, that's not the case here, I try to upload a military A/C that you all would not have a chance to see if I didn't agree with the IDF spokesman condition to not disclose certain details...
3. If this is a database, shouldn't it be an AIRCRAFT database and not DATE or LOCATION database? I mean that if the information is correct, and the photo is good why not trust my judjment what detailes I can or nan't give away?


User currently onlineangad84 From India, joined Nov 2012, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

Noam, I think the screening team's position on this issue has been made clear. As I see it, you can do one of two things right now:

1. Appeal to the IAF/IDF to allow you to release location info. Like I said, this can be made easier if you can show them evidence that Hermes 450 SA ops have already been documented from this location. Try this link for a start - http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...20Hermes%20450&distinct_entry=true

2. Keep the image offline or upload to a different website.

Best,

A


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5660 times:

On a related note, if the full information is required, why are many people still only filling in the month and year of their photos? If a common commercial aircraft is shot at MAN why isn't it insisted upon that the precise day be included?

Karl


User currently onlinemnazarinia From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5603 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Karl,

Can you give me a good reason why one shouldn't disclose the precise day?

Mehdi.


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

Quoting mnazarinia (Reply 8):
Can you give me a good reason why one shouldn't disclose the precise day?

Um. Is that not what I just asked?

You tell me, because there are plenty of uploaders still omitting the exact day.

Karl


User currently offlinetrvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5555 times:

Quoting noamen (Thread starter):

I was wondering if this database A.net guarantees the date and location entered by users to be correct ? just curious..

[Edited 2013-01-31 10:50:14]

User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2598 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5538 times:
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Quoting noamen (Thread starter):
I do not understand why do I have to risk going to jail for revealing something secret like the location of a IAF base?

Sorry to say this, but the locations of IAF bases are well known through some simple google searching. There's nothing secret about where they are and what's based at them. Now, writing "withheld" because you were told so is a whole different story. But let's not pretend you alone are somehow privy of a secret airbase that nobody is supposed to know about. We all know about area 51, the Serbian underground airbase, and even Chinese and North Korean base locations can be found. Do you really think an IAF base is more secret than that??

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 1):
On a personal note, and not directed at you in any way, the whole "Withheld" thing is a bunch of nonsense. If people were uploading photos from places they should not be, as soon as they posted them on the Internet, their cover is blown.

It is not that simple. Like someone mentioned before, sometimes the "higher brass" has a false sense of security and peace of mind when you don't disclose specific base information. This is normal in Russia, India, China, Iran, etc.. Is it silly? Sometimes. But it makes them happy, and when they're happy they let you on base and let you take photos. Would you rather not see the photos than see them with location "withheld"? If you see a Su-25 with reg "01 RED" would you know automatically where it was taken? Not necessarily. It could be at any Su-25 base, or at a deployment somewhere, or in transit, etc... and the people that take the photos may have been told not to disclose this information. In other cases, they may have been on base "unofficially" through a friend inside the base and that person doesn't want to get in trouble. I know I've been told to withhold location and dates in the past. In fact, I took photos of the first flying private Su-27 in the USA and was told I can only share the photo if I don't disclose the location and date. You can easily find it all in google, but I was told that I personally can't share it. So, should I burn my bridge with that contact and write all info on here just so you can have a complete database?


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 11):
It is not that simple. Like someone mentioned before, sometimes the "higher brass" has a false sense of security and peace of mind when you don't disclose specific base information. This is normal in Russia, India, China, Iran, etc.. Is it silly? Sometimes. But it makes them happy, and when they're happy they let you on base and let you take photos. Would you rather not see the photos than see them with location "withheld"? If you see a Su-25 with reg "01 RED" would you know automatically where it was taken? Not necessarily. It could be at any Su-25 base, or at a deployment somewhere, or in transit, etc... and the people that take the photos may have been told not to disclose this information. In other cases, they may have been on base "unofficially" through a friend inside the base and that person doesn't want to get in trouble. I know I've been told to withhold location and dates in the past. In fact, I took photos of the first flying private Su-27 in the USA and was told I can only share the photo if I don't disclose the location and date. You can easily find it all in google, but I was told that I personally can't share it. So, should I burn my bridge with that contact and write all info on here just so you can have a complete database?



Good point, and one with which I tend to agree. I have a friend who works at a UK airfield and he's often specifically told he can only share his images if the hangar in which the photos were taken is not disclosed. Silly? Yes. But sometimes if you want to take photos you have to abide by 'silly' rules.

It's easy to sit there as a citizen of the UK or US and go on about how silly a notion withholding location/date information is.

What I find far more concerning is the fact that a lot of people here continue to hide the precise date of images of common aircraft shot at common civilian airports. Shouldn't the focus be on these people, rather than busting the balls of those who actually take risks giving us information most take for granted?

Karl


User currently offlinedendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1667 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5428 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 12):
What I find far more concerning is the fact that a lot of people here continue to hide the precise date of images of common aircraft shot at common civilian airports.

Karl
I totally agree!
There seems to be a degree of laziness and almost a fashion in doing this and most of the time it is unnecessary and I really dislike it for a database. However, as I said above, the guidance as it stands is

Quoting dendrobatid (Reply 2):
For this reason full dates are always preferred and they must be included for open events.

It is remarkable how many try the 'no full date' on airshow (or even museum) images and they should be rejected but I would prefer full dates on all images unless a reason is given. If many others feel the same we can take a look at a change but that would not be my opinion alone.

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlinemjgbtv From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

Is the reported date or Exif data used to determine doubles?

User currently offlinedendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1667 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5401 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Quoting mjgbtv (Reply 14):

Is the reported date or Exif data used to determine doubles?

No we do not have access to EXIF
If you choose to not include a full date, any images from the same month will be treated as though they are the same day.

I think a lot of the time people do want to know the date, the information is important, at your local airport what day did you miss the subject etc and there is generally very little reason not to include it.

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2598 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5373 times:
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As far as using only a month/year format for something I took a pic of at my local airport - the only time I would consider doing this is if I tell my boss I'm "sick" but really I went out to catch that plane   . However I doubt most of the cases we see on here are the result of something like that  

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Quoting dendrobatid (Reply 15):
I think a lot of the time people do want to know the date, the information is important, at your local airport what day did you miss the subject etc and there is generally very little reason not to include it



From what I understand this may be part of the problem. As I'm sure many of us will know there are those in this hobby who unfortunately deliberately withhold information purely out of spite, because they somehow feel they are the only ones 'entitled' to shoot something new or newsworthy. Other photographers are a threat, so by omitting the exact date it throws the potential 'threat' off the scent, so to speak.

For example (and this is by no means reflective of anyone I know at MAN), something may emerge from the Air Livery hangar sporting a brand new scheme. Someone may shoot it and rush home to upload it as priority, but because the aircraft may sit there all day nicely in the sun (for someone else to have a go at) he/she may purposely omit the date so that others will be wary of heading out for their own shot.

I doubt this is the reason for all date omissions but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the motivation for a good majority. There are some very sad and insecure people around.

Karl


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1321 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
From what I understand this may be part of the problem. As I'm sure many of us will know there are those in this hobby who unfortunately deliberately withhold information purely out of spite, because they somehow feel they are the only ones 'entitled' to shoot something new or newsworthy. Other photographers are a threat, so by omitting the exact date it throws the potential 'threat' off the scent, so to speak

Sadly this is very prevalent in the hobby. If you attempt to contact say a photographer via the database with the typical question 'from whereabouts did you shoot that?', it is rare to receive a reply. Often the worst offenders are the screeners!


User currently offlineTomskii From Belgium, joined May 2011, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5192 times:

Quoting noamen (Reply 5):
Hi!
1. As I mentioned earlier... I was the only non employee to get a clearance to photograph.
2. I understand that this site is a worldwide database, but it's not like I try to upload a civilian A/C, that's not the case here, I try to upload a military A/C that you all would not have a chance to see if I didn't agree with the IDF spokesman condition to not disclose certain details...
3. If this is a database, shouldn't it be an AIRCRAFT database and not DATE or LOCATION database? I mean that if the information is correct, and the photo is good why not trust my judjment what detailes I can or nan't give away?

Have you even read what you just said?

Whilst I'm aware of the military restricions often given to us photographers (For example whenever I visit a controller at LGG he asks me to not put the pictures online because he could get in trouble with airport security) you are stating here that without you and this guy we would not get your pictures.

I think if you would not be uploading them after a while somebody else would have pictures he can upload. I'm sorry but honestly you sounded a bit cocky :s



Nikon D90 + Nikkor f4.5-5.6 18-105mm + Tamron f4-5.6 70-300mm
User currently offlinespotterke From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4617 times:
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So if this is a "so called" database..where is the data (read exif)from the pictures itself.All exif data seems to dissapear when uploading to a.net..Why is that? I could learn from it to make better pictures for the"database"...
i sure upload my pitures with exif included..



Marc
User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

It's an aircraft database. Since many visitors aren't interested in EXIF data there's little point in including it. Is such data included in aviation reference books?

Karl


User currently offlineckw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 731 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4519 times:

Regarding Exif data, if it were available, would it be reliable for data and time? Not everyone remembers or bothers to set correct date and time on their camera.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlinespotterke From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4479 times:
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Quoting ckw (Reply 22):
Not everyone remembers or bothers to set correct date and time on their camera.

Ok,date and time is not important to me,but if the other exif is available like shutter speeds etc..i could compare with my pictures and maybe learn something from it..



Marc
User currently offlinestevemchey From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

Quoting spotterke (Reply 23):
Ok,date and time is not important to me,but if the other exif is available like shutter speeds etc..i could compare with my pictures and maybe learn something from it..

I agree that having EXIF data is quite nice and I believe that a lot of other photographers would enjoy that added information. However, as Karl has pointed out, this is an aircraft database and the vast majority of people looking at the pictures here on a.net wouldn't even know what shutter speed or aperture are. All they are concerned about is the aircraft itself (and maybe its registration and location).


User currently offlinehrtsfldhomeboy From Djibouti, joined Oct 2007, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

It's worth mentioning that it is impossible to lie on the Internet. Therefore, photographers will always be unable to give phony dates and locations.

In all seriousness, I chose to withhold exact dates for multiple reasons. Primarily, it's to prevent the public eye from gathering more information than I feel is pertinent to the photograph. I like to protect the anonymity of my contacts who make photo ops possible, protect the flight crew of a certain aircraft that is in violation of published regs, conceal my personal travel intinerary, etc. Many reasons as you can see.

As for location withheld, I think every photographer has the right to withhold the location of the photograph. If they feel revealing the location could result in legal action or risk their personal safety, they have that right. And sure, the screening team has the right to tell them to piss off too and reject the photo. This ain't a democracy folks.

I look forward to uploading photos including as much information as possible, without risking my personal safety or that of the people around me who often make photo ops possible.

[Edited 2013-02-12 16:40:51]

[Edited 2013-02-12 16:44:03]

User currently offlinemx330 From Mexico, joined Oct 2002, 827 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4403 times:
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Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
Quoting mnazarinia (Reply 8):
Can you give me a good reason why one shouldn't disclose the precise day?

Um. Is that not what I just asked?

You tell me, because there are plenty of uploaders still omitting the exact day.

Karl

Karl, Mehdi.
From what I can see on your profile, you both come from countries with what I could say, very decent security.

Now think for a moment that you come from a "not that secure" county... let's say a third world country like mine....

For many many years, I uploaded without the full day on my pictures, because I was concerned that somebody might started tracking me and relating the dates I used to frequent the airport (Was always on the same dates depending school) and then suddenly they would be just waiting to rob my camera/gear.

I know this sounds kind of ridiculous or exaggerated, but trust me I never wanted to take my chances.

Time passed and after a couple of "double" rejections/bans because I miss-managed my dates on uploads I decided to start uploading full day/month, also backed up with the fact that nowadays I visit my local airport (MEX) on very rare occasions.

I don't believe its an issue related with laziness as stated on another reply... at least for me it never was.

Juan



All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

Juan / All,

As I stated in an earlier reply I sympathise with those whose countries are more sensitive about this sort of thing than mine. In one sentence I'm pretty sure I leapt straight to the defence of the thread-starter.

But withholding information about an aircraft taken at LHR, for example, on a Sunday afternoon just seems so pointless. I know a lot of people who can't always find time to see or even hear about what's been happening at their locals. They therefore come to sites like this for a day-by-day account of what's been happening during a certain time period. It's always interesting to see what's been flying where and specifically when.

Unless there really is a genuine threat to someone's hobby or general well-being, date omissions should be frowned upon. And most of us know which airports are classed as 'sensitive' and which are not.

Karl


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
You tell me, because there are plenty of uploaders still omitting the exact day.


So true, I also find it humorous the first screener to respond to this thread consistently omits exact dates on his photos too - pot meet kettle.


User currently offlineMurcielago4me From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

Quoting seachaz (Reply 28):
So true, I also find it humorous the first screener to respond to this thread consistently omits exact dates on his photos too - pot meet kettle.

Totally agree with you on that one.

There are several people posting the most common aircrafts from the most common airports without proper dates. How is that acceptable if this is a 'Online Database of Aircrafts' ?

[Edited 2013-02-27 07:29:47]


"Caution, Wake Turbulence"
User currently offlinecvillandry From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

I agree with Karl , I don't understand why today photographers are not including the specific day. I think as much info should be included as possible , especially the date.

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