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Appeals Policy/proceedure  
User currently offlineTonyholt777 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 185 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Hi

I want to seek views/clarification on how the appeals function works and how potentially it can be enhanced.

Recently Demand Media stated they wanted to make the site more flexible which was welcomed and discussed at length here.

So, when you appeal a photo at present it is sent into the Head Screeners queue and it is appraised by one or many yes?

The appealed comments are considered and the photo reviewed. Your appeal is either upheld or rejected.

However, as discussed (again previously), people are finding that the photo is actually assessed as a 'new' upload and anything or everything is considered.

This seems at odds with basic justice - You appeal your sentence on specifics and any judgments are based on your appeal submission (common law) _ I feel this is important because you have submitted your appeal in good faith based on the comments you have received.

To make my point I will use one of my own (and mods pls don't remove this because it is part of my debate).

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...714_g-euxh_eddt_sunsetapproach.jpg

It was a difficult shot but I thought told a good story of the night/dusk approach to Berlin (Tegel) putting the viewer into the space/time.

I am then bounced by the first screener. "too dark and not enough a/c in the picture"

Ok I didn't agree and submitted an appeal immediately.

Then on appeal this: "Dark, Motive removed, but it needs some CW rotation."

Ok my arguments accepted but I am now told there's another issue. However, I don't agree.

There appears to be nowhere turn at this point. The mail is actually anonymous, it doesn't tell me who or whom says its unlevel; the basis of the 'level' rejection and hence I cannot argue my point (I was there at the time don't forget)

So how is this working or not for you AND is there time for a policy change/review of the appeals process?

cheers Tony

[Edited 2013-08-05 09:10:04]

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3385 times:
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I'm not entirely sure I understand your point. Or perhaps just don't agree.

Sometimes screeners miss things, and sometimes we're too critical - we're human, it happens, and that's what appeals are for. In your case, based on the Head Screeners' judgment, the photo should originally have been rejected for level, but not motive or dark. If it were my photo, I'd take that as a win, as basically they are saying that your photo deserves to be in the DB, but just needs a bit of rotation to bring it in line with standards.

Think about the alternative:

Your shot is appealed, and the motive and dark rejections are determined to be invalid. The Head Screeners feel it needs some rotation, but they can't say that because it wasn't originally rejected for that. So they have to add it, and now we have an unlevel shot in the DB. Then we start getting photographer complaints about screener inconsistency, because their shot was rejected for level and yours wasn't.....

One could say it's a lose-lose for the screeners, but I think the only way to assure consistency is to reject if it's felt that rejection is warranted, even if the first screener didn't pick up on said reason.

Keep in mind also that all screeners see the result of appeals, which is good for calibration of our screening.

With all that said, what would you suggest as an alternative?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineTonyholt777 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):

I'm not entirely sure I understand your point. Or perhaps just don't agree.

Seems you don't agree.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Sometimes screeners miss things, and sometimes we're too critical - we're human, it happens, and that's what appeals are for. I

Sure, thats my point about a review of the policy.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
In your case, based on the Head Screeners' judgment, the photo should originally have been rejected for level, but not motive or dark.

Fair enough however, I don't agree with the new category which at best is subjective and in my view wrong so where do I turn now?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Then we start getting photographer complaints about screener inconsistency,

Don't you just. Well covered in previous threads because it true.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
One could say it's a lose-lose for the screeners

Only if they put their heads in the sand . All things considered Vik you at least took the time to respond which is useful however, it doesn't address the point because if Demand Media want more hits on this site they need to be confident in their policy/procedures.

You cannot reject images, uphold the argument(s) on appeal and then not allow a response to any new categories applied _ fairly simple stuff really.

tony


User currently offlinestevemchey From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

I think Vik made a very solid point. Yes, we all hate to get a "new" rejection reason after an appeal (or re-upload) but I would prefer that over inconsistent screening. Sometimes the first screener just focuses on the more glaring problems and the more minute issues come out on second examination.

That all being said, I would be glad if I were you. Since the motive and dark rejections have been dropped, a level rejection is much easier to fix for a re-upload.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3291 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Thread starter):
There appears to be nowhere turn at this point.

Yes there is - fix the problem and resubmit. Easy.

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 2):
You cannot reject images, uphold the argument(s) on appeal and then not allow a response to any new categories applied _ fairly simple stuff really.

The appeal is a one-shot process, it's not iterative. There's no process for appealing a rejected appeal. It makes sense in all honesty, since the appeals are handled by the Head Screeners - if they say something is wrong, it most likely is and appealing their rejection will not change their view.

If your appeal is rejected, you either give up on that shot or re-work it, upload and try again.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3281 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 2):
Seems you don't agree.

You're right, I don't.  
Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 2):
Only if they put their heads in the sand . All things considered Vik you at least took the time to respond which is useful however, it doesn't address the point because if Demand Media want more hits on this site they need to be confident in their policy/procedures.

You cannot reject images, uphold the argument(s) on appeal and then not allow a response to any new categories applied _ fairly simple stuff really.

Well, I'm not a Demand Media spokesman, but I'm pretty confident in the policy/procedure. The Head Screeners are, well, just that - the Head Screeners. If they make a ruling, it stands.

Now, we do discuss both acceptances and rejections within the Quality Team and Head Screeners. This is part of ensuring consistency in both acceptances and rejections. But again, the Head Screeners are the bosses.

Anyway, Steve put it pretty well:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 4):
It makes sense in all honesty, since the appeals are handled by the Head Screeners - if they say something is wrong, it most likely is and appealing their rejection will not change their view.

We could have an appeal of an appeal, and then an appeal of the appeal of the appeal, ad infinitum. Obviously that's not the way to go. I think the current process, including the Quality Team, is quite effective.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently onlineangad84 From India, joined Nov 2012, 808 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

I've been burned a couple of times by the appeal process as well. You get a rejection for something like "grainy" and think it's not too bad, put in an appeal and it comes back like one of my multi-variable calculus exams - full of red ink!

On the other hand, once I get over the initial disappointment, it shows me that the head screeners are giving the images in the appeal queue a LOT of attention, which is good for photographers and the quality of the DB. I'm more than happy to live with that.

I think Vik's first response perfectly summed up why it would be difficult, if not impossible, to revamp the appeals system.

Cheers
Angad


User currently offlineTonyholt777 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 3):
I think Vik made a very solid point. Yes, we all hate to get a "new" rejection reason after an appeal (or re-upload) but I would prefer that over inconsistent screening. Sometimes the first screener just focuses on the more glaring problems and the more minute issues come out on second examination.

That makes no sense at all _ What glaring issues are you referring too? Dark/Motive? Well those seems to have been wrong. Unlevel a minor issue (according to head screeners) well its not. Please feel free to point out where the image is unlevel? Actually anyone feel free, because so far no one has.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5):
Well, I'm not a Demand Media spokesman, but I'm pretty confident in the policy/procedure

Ok Vik, accept your point however, I don't agree that the policy/procedure is right and that because someone is appointed a judge doesnt make their decision right either. What is important tho is the right to reply and under current policy thats denied.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 4):
Yes there is - fix the problem and resubmit. Easy.

There's no problem to fix - the point above stands (right to reply). No its not about multiple appeals just the right to reply to something.

Tony


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 7):
Ok Vik, accept your point however, I don't agree that the policy/procedure is right and that because someone is appointed a judge doesnt make their decision right either. What is important tho is the right to reply and under current policy thats denied.

Tony, you are free to email the Head Screeners or post in the Feedback Forum should you wish to inquire regarding said rejection. That would be the avenue to pursue if you would like more information.

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 7):
Please feel free to point out where the image is unlevel? Actually anyone feel free, because so far no one has.

Because that didn't seem to be the focus of your post. I thought we were addressing the process, rather than the specific image.

For what it's worth, it does appear to need a bit of CW. It's a great shot, and I hope you see fit to upload it again.

All that said, I asked in my first post what you would suggest as an alternative. That wasn't a rhetorical question - if you have an idea, please feel free to suggest it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3208 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 7):
No its not about multiple appeals just the right to reply to something.

Well, there's always email. But what exactly are you going to reply? "My shot was rejected for level. I think it is level." "Sorry, it's not level, it needs CW." Frankly, I'm struggling to see the point. Fix the shot and upload it again. Move on.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineTonyholt777 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
All that said, I asked in my first post what you would suggest as an alternative. That wasn't a rhetorical question - if you have an idea, please feel free to suggest it.

Hi Vik I do - please give the photographer the option to appeal direct to the 'reviewer' if they feel any new rejection to be wrong.

regards Tony


User currently offlineairkas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3980 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 7):
Please feel free to point out where the image is unlevel? Actually anyone feel free, because so far no one has.



Note how the red dots are almost on entirely different lines. Needless to say, I agree with the level and its an easy fix.
TIP: For window shots, I include leveling by horizon (if possible) in my standard workflow. Shouldn't take more than a minute to figure out the right adjustment.





[Edited 2013-08-11 13:23:37]

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

That's an interesting image (if indeed we are referring to the 'out-of-the-window' shot linked in the first post - I've not read all replies); there really is no right or wrong here. At first glance it appears to require slight CW rotation - but if you look at every building in the image they all lean slightly to the right - which would actually suggest CCW rotation.

Screeners are not always right. Neither are photographers. There is no way of proving whether this image is level or not, so ignoring for now any other 'faults' the level issue should be overlooked.

Anyone professing to know 100% whether this image is technically unlevel is either a bit of a know-all or very pretentious indeed. Unfortunately Tony I see a few other issues which I personally find limit the photo's appeal.

Just do what I do these days: upload when you feel like it and not get concerned about rejections. I've begun to enjoy this hobby much more without A.net lately.

Karl


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3005 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 10):
Hi Vik I do - please give the photographer the option to appeal direct to the 'reviewer' if they feel any new rejection to be wrong.

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, as stated, the head screeners have already reviewed your rejection and determined that it needs CW rotation. Appealing to the head screeners again is likely a rather futile idea. And to be perfectly frank, it's a bad idea in terms of time and resources as well. If everyone appealed his/her appeal, suddenly the appeal queue gets twice as long. And then again, what's to stop people appealing the appeal of an appeal?

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 13):
There is no way of proving whether this image is level or not, so ignoring for now any other 'faults' the level issue should be overlooked.

There is "no way of proving" a lot of things about an image - like color, sharpness, contrast, brightness, etc., because opinions will be different. Even dust spots and heat haze can be contentious issues! With that said, we can argue this around in circles forever, but it seems a lot easier to either "fix" the photo and resubmit, or just let this one go and move on.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 13):

Just do what I do these days: upload when you feel like it and not get concerned about rejections. I've begun to enjoy this hobby much more without A.net lately.

I'll say what I always say - upload what you want, be happy about acceptances, don't worry about rejections. It's just a website.

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 11):

Other than that - shut up!

Come on Tony, you asked for opinions.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2952 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 11):
Feel free to tell me in your 'experience' where it needs CW?

Tony, it's not me that said your shot needs CW, it was the Head Screeners, so your little snipe is aimed at the wrong person.

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 11):
Other than that - shut up!

With pleasure.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineAlexC From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

I really can't see the problem. The image does need a slight degree of levelling. If you want it on on the D/B why not just carry out the adjustment and re-submit? And please don't tell me to shut up as well, it's not very polite!

User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5692 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2924 times:
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Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 11):
Feel free to tell me in your 'experience' where it needs CW?

Pretty easy to see the image was unlevel.. looked that way to me on first viewing
AirKas1 just managed to quantify it

Quoting Tonyholt777 (Reply 11):
Other than that - shut up!

Unpleasantly harsh response to folk that are trying to discuss what is a fairly flimsy premise, one that seems based on hurt pride.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
heat haze can be contentious issues

Not really. It's either there or it's not. In my opinion there are way too many heat-hazed shots here. But that's just my opinion, of course.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
Pretty easy to see the image was unlevel.. looked that way to me on first viewing

At first glance it LOOKS unlevel - but that doesn't mean it IS unlevel. Like I say, just look at the buildings. Unless the Germans build all their tall structures with a slight lean to the right, I'd say it theoretically requires CCW. Sometimes there is no way around physics. Horizons - unless they are water - are not always reliable.

That said, it doesn't 'feel' level - and since much of the emphasis here is on the 'feel' of an image it's perhaps best just to re-level and re-submit.

In this instance I don't think the heads are actually saying it's technically unlevel (I hope not because that would be like them saying they know God exists!); they appear to be saying that it just isn't levelled according to the site's preferences.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
be happy about acceptances

I suppose. But you should be happier you got the shot in the first place. That's the bit that matters to me.

Karl


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2871 times:
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Quoting JakTrax (Reply 18):

Not really. It's either there or it's not. In my opinion there are way too many heat-hazed shots here. But that's just my opinion, of course.

Thanks for supporting my point Karl.   Opinions vary - therefore it can be contentious.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 18):
they appear to be saying that it just isn't levelled according to the site's preferences.

That is all we are ever saying.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 18):
I suppose. But you should be happier you got the shot in the first place. That's the bit that matters to me.

Of course. You don't have to be happy about acceptances. Just a suggestion.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 18):
Like I say, just look at the buildings. Unless the Germans build all their tall structures with a slight lean to the right, I'd say it theoretically requires CCW. Sometimes there is no way around physics. Horizons - unless they are water - are not always reliable.

I zoomed way in on it last night, and I didn't see that many buildings that were leaning to the right. Nevertheless, in shots such as that, we typically use the horizon for judging level.

Anyway, I think we've just about exhausted a discussion on this image/point.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinelen90 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Hey Vik,

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but wasn't there something where once a picture is appealed that is it, like the picture is no longer listed in your rejected photos or selectable for appeal. If not, then I think that might be a good idea to implement.

As to the OP, I personally would just adjust the level using the advice given. Probably only comes out to 0.25-0.5 degrees clockwise.



Len90
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9945 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2791 times:
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Quoting len90 (Reply 19):
Don't want to beat a dead horse, but wasn't there something where once a picture is appealed that is it, like the picture is no longer listed in your rejected photos or selectable for appeal. If not, then I think that might be a good idea to implement.

If I'm understanding you correctly, then I suggest you read over the thread. I've already stated why there's no option to appeal an appeal - that's exactly what we've been discussing.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinelen90 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):

Yes read over the thread and agree. Had I rechecked my rejected pictures I would have answered my own question. Appealed pictures are removed from the rejected list to prevent appealing an appeal. Sorry to bother...



Len90
User currently offlinehenkita217 From Australia, joined Apr 2007, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2646 times:
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Hi All,

Funnily enough, I have just had a similar experience/feeling..

Had this photo rejected for heat haze affecting the aircraft.

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/rejections/big/APPEAL_20130813_a1375341351.8366dq-fju_03-1280_fijiairways_a332.jpg

I appealed, because I disagree and felt it was unfair to blame the photo on heat haze, when it could've been jet wash from the engines as there are more areas that are sharp, than not. Anyway, this is not the main point of the story.

The appeal was rejected, and a reason was added to rejection list which puzzled me, motive, not the nicest angles/crops.

Had this been my first upload of such angle/crop, I would've accepted the advise and moved on..
However, I have similar photos in the database already, with similar crops/angles.. so this is where we need to seek clarification from the Heads about his actions.

Other photos:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hendra Barnes


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hendra Barnes



Because of the two accepted photos, it is difficult for me to accept such critique and move on.. I think I have the rights to, no?

Cheers,
Hendra


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

Hendra,

Must admit, I'm not keen on the light in your latest image, and the crops are a little better left-hand-side in your two accepted images.

As for heat-haze, it's almost laughable the amount of truly hazed images sneaking in lately. Yeah, there's a touch of engine exhaust here but it's perfectly natural and doesn't in my opinion affect a disturbing portion of the image.

Unfortunately for me the light kills it; add the more awkward crop too and I doubt you've got much of a case.

Cheers,

Karl


User currently onlineaussie18 From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 1746 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2568 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 23):
As for heat-haze, it's almost laughable the amount of truly hazed images sneaking in lately. Yeah, there's a touch of engine exhaust here but it's perfectly natural and doesn't in my opinion affect a disturbing portion of the image.

Karl, If it is so laughable than how about sending the quality team a email and maybe we can get something done about these heat haze affected images.

The email is - quality@airliners.net

Part of what the quality team is doing is checking accepted/rejected images and trying to make improvements and making things more consistent across the board for all so we do appreciate if members from the photographer community who find images that may have quality issues to please send the link to the quality team and we can check them out.


Cheers Mark


25 JakTrax : Because it's not something I'm overly concerned about these days. It's up to the site if it wants to accept such images; it's nothing whatsoever to d
26 vikkyvik : Then why consistently bring it up, honestly? As Mark said, if people see images they think shouldn't be in the DB, we'd appreciate emails about it so
27 flyer408 : Is it the Quality Team's main work to check all pics ever uploaded to the DB if their acceptance was justified? Or are the doors now open for denuncia
28 JakTrax : If you're trying to psycho-analyse me it's not proving accurate. If you have a theory that I secretly find A.net to be the most important thing about
29 Post contains images vikkyvik : No Karl, not at all trying to psycho-analyze, and I don't have any theories about you or your hobby. Just have seen the same comment about heat haze
30 JakTrax : Vik, I'm assuming the quality team does have genuine concerns about the quality of accepted images? If this is the case then I don't mind linking any
31 vikkyvik : As was stated in the announcement of the formation of the team, part of its responsibility is ensuring acceptances and rejections are warranted and c
32 derekf : I have to say that I feel slightly uncomfortable with the thought of non-screeners trawling through the datbase flagging up images that they perceive
33 vikkyvik : Again, not the point. IF folks happen to see images they have questions/concerns about, they are welcome to email the Quality Team about them. That's
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