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Enquiry By Embraer For A Picture  
User currently offlineTomskii From Belgium, joined May 2011, 467 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4227 times:

Hi guys,

Friend of mine (which can't post on the forum) had an enquiry from external communcations at Embraer to use his photo unlimited in time and use. (so basically free use). Yet he doesn't really know what price he should ask for (as the person at embraer asks for his price).

Any ideas?


Nikon D90 + Nikkor f4.5-5.6 18-105mm + Tamron f4-5.6 70-300mm
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4142 times:
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Quoting Tomskii (Thread starter):
Hi guys,

Friend of mine (which can't post on the forum) had an enquiry from external communcations at Embraer to use his photo unlimited in time and use. (so basically free use). Yet he doesn't really know what price he should ask for (as the person at embraer asks for his price).

Any ideas?

This is very subjective to price. Everyone has their own numbers for what makes it work or worthwhile to them (which is a function of how much they have invested in their photography). For example, if he took this with his $150 point and shoot and he does not care about it too much, then he would obviously ask for lot less than someone with a lot more invested in it. That said, i would not touch this for anything less than USD$800.00 (i am saying this without seeing the picture and the actual uniqueness of the picture which has an effect on the price. I am making the assumption that Embraer cannot recreate themselves or buy from a stock photography store etc) to start. I am saying this based upon what "unlimited use and unlimited time" starts at for me. Different people have different expectations and so do buyers. I may change the price on a case by case basis (both the picture uniqueness and buyer).

good luck.

[Edited 2013-08-09 11:07:00]


World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlineTomskii From Belgium, joined May 2011, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Cheers for your answer eksath, passed it on!


Nikon D90 + Nikkor f4.5-5.6 18-105mm + Tamron f4-5.6 70-300mm
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3803 times:
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Tom, if I may add from a legal perspective, "unlimited in time and use" basically means that Embraer can use his photo anywhere, at any time, and for any purpose whatsoever. Depending on the wording of the agreement (if any), it can also mean that Embraer may sell that photo to other interested parties. I would be rather wary of such vagueness.

As your friend owns the photo, he can put a price on its use by Embraer. He can either sell the photo and its associated intellectual property rights to Embraer, or license it. If he decides to sell the rights to his photo, it means that he no longer will have any rights associated with it (e.g. he cannot sell it to a third party), as it will become the property of Embraer.

If he does not want to sell the rights to his photo, I would suggest that a simple agreement be drawn up but it should in no uncertain terms stipulate that the agreement is a licence (not an assignment) agreement and that the intellectual property in the photograph remains with him.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 3):

I don't see a $5 billion aircraft manufacturing company selling prints of the picture at the local plane spotter slide swap-meet. And even if they do, so what if they paid a really good wad of money for the full rights to the photo. I know what I would do.

[Edited 2013-08-17 10:08:18]


The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

And also, your friend can post on this forum. Photography forum is free to everybody.

User currently offlineckw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 730 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Without seeing exactly what Embraer asked for, its not possible to make a absolute statements, but from what the OP says the image is required by Embraer for Embraer's use, but with no restrictions on this use. If the image is sold to Embraer for their use, it can not be sold on.

That's fairly normal - but be aware that this may include anything from technical articles to major advertisements. The later could be worth a considerable some.

The other key thing to understand is whether or not Embraer is looking for exclusive rights. Exclusivity should entail a signficant premium as it basically means the image can't be resold by the photographer for any other use.

Now your friend may not be a professional, and not care too much about this, but he is not doing himself or anyone else any favours by selling way below market value.

A guide to what an image may be worth in various uses can be found here:

http://www.featurepics.com/News/photo-license-fees-calculator.aspx

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5217 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

I would minimum charge 1,000 USD.

MINIMUM.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3595 times:

Quoting ckw (Reply 6):
Exclusivity should entail a signficant premium as it basically means the image can't be resold by the photographer for any other use.

I had an image requested for exclusive (web/digital and press/poster) usage (by a large advertising agency) for 3 years.
£4500 was the price they paid.

I had been offered £500 last year for the same image and same usage terms and turned it down. Boy was I glad sticking to my guns and not giving it away.

I think part of the problem is the proliferation of photographers who don't need the money for income. Anything to them is better than nothing. While my primary business is not Photography, my photography business needs to pay for itself and I don't give my images away for way-below-rate fees.



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User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3429 times:
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Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
I don't see a $5 billion aircraft manufacturing company selling prints of the picture at the local plane spotter slide swap-meet. And even if they do, so what if they paid a really good wad of money for the full rights to the photo. I know what I would do.

I think that's a question each individual photographer will need to decide for themselves: whether the money they are being offered for the rights to the photo, or a licence to use the photo, is worth it. There's no right or wrong answer to this; some will not sell the full rights to their photo at any price, while others would be more willing to do so.

Quoting ckw (Reply 6):
If the image is sold to Embraer for their use, it can not be sold on.

That depends on the wording of the agreement. If the image has been 'sold', as in assigning full rights to the photo to the purchaser, then the photographer can no longer assert copyright ownership over the photo at all. If what is being 'sold' is a licence to use the photo without transferring any intellectual property rights over to the purchaser, then the purchaser does not have the right to sell the image.

In situations like these, I believe it is beneficial to draft an agreement using precise language so there can be no dispute regarding the status of intellectual property ownership in the photo. To me, using the phrase "unlimited in time and use" is both imprecise and ambiguous.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineckw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 730 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 9):
If the image has been 'sold', as in assigning full rights to the photo to the purchaser, then the photographer can no longer assert copyright ownership over the photo at all.

Hmm yes, if you explicitly assign the copyright. However, under UK law at least, that is a separate contract over and above the sale of the image. Regardless of how you sell the actual image, you retain copyright - even if you sell unrestricted usage.

Interestingly, again under UK law, even if you reassign the copyright you STILL have a moral right to be indentified as the photographer and a right to prevent the use of the image which may be damaging to yourself.

Of course as has been said the best solution is to use a clearly worded contract - you don't have to get lawyers involved, there are plenty of boilerplate contracts on the web which will do just fine.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlinenikog From Israel, joined Sep 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

I think the same guy from Embraer (I will not post his name) also requested a photo from me.

This is a message:

Dear Sir,
I'm External communication officer for Embraer EMEA. I would be interested to buy your photos of an Embraer 190.
I would need it in high resolution with a copyright free to use it.
What would be your price for a copyright free without limitation of time and use?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Best regards,
...........

I didn't know how much to ask and asked only 70 USD for a photo. Now he is asking if I can sell it even for less.
I think that it is rediculous for trying to get it on even lower price that I suggested.
Embraer is big company...
What are you thinking guys?

Gregory



Gregory Verba
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3222 times:
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Quoting ckw (Reply 10):
Interestingly, again under UK law, even if you reassign the copyright you STILL have a moral right to be indentified as the photographer and a right to prevent the use of the image which may be damaging to yourself.

There are provisions for the protection of moral rights under Australian intellectual property law as well, but such provisions are nowhere near as comprehensive as the protection that one would have if they retained copyright ownership.

Quoting nikog (Reply 11):
I didn't know how much to ask and asked only 70 USD for a photo. Now he is asking if I can sell it even for less.
I think that it is rediculous for trying to get it on even lower price that I suggested.
Embraer is big company...
What are you thinking guys?

Based on that email, it would appear as though the request was for all intellectual property rights to the photo (rather than a mere licence to use it), and are paying a pittance for it. Personally, I would have asked for a lot more than US$70, but each photographer should decide for themselves how much they are prepared to accept.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinenikog From Israel, joined Sep 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
Based on that email, it would appear as though the request was for all intellectual property rights to the photo (rather than a mere licence to use it), and are paying a pittance for it. Personally, I would have asked for a lot more than US$70, but each photographer should decide for themselves how much they are prepared to accept.

Thanks Sam!
How much would you ask in this case?

Gregory



Gregory Verba
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3189 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting nikog (Reply 13):
Thanks Sam!
How much would you ask in this case?

Gregory

Could we see the picture? It would help price it.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):

Based on that email, it would appear as though the request was for all intellectual property rights to the photo (rather than a mere licence to use it), and are paying a pittance for it. Personally, I would have asked for a lot more than US$70, but each photographer should decide for themselves how much they are prepared to accept.

I agree. For what they are asking for, I would easily say X10 or more of what you asked. They are low balling you and probably everybody else they sent those emails to.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlinenikog From Israel, joined Sep 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

Quoting eksath (Reply 14):
Could we see the picture? It would help price it.

Yes of course:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ukrai...d=3e29797060647a1002d1c8fd8aa6c3a2



Gregory Verba
User currently offlineSFO2SVO From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 398 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting nikog (Reply 15):

Yes of course:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ukrai...d=3e29797060647a1002d1c8fd8aa6c3a2

While this is a nice image, the plot and composition are fairly common - there is a similar shot of the same aircraft taken in Warsaw in the DB.
Unlimited and unrestricted use sounds scary... I would start with clearing what type of use do they have in mind and what do they mean by "high resolution". (few of my sales fell through because potential buyers were looking for higher resolution then I could provide).

$70-$100 may be all they are willing to pay.



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User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1295 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2897 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 16):
While this is a nice image, the plot and composition are fairly common - there is a similar shot of the same aircraft taken in Warsaw in the DB.

'
I agree. This is one of those shots that may be of little use to anyone else but them. So you would have to make a tough choice.

Now if this was an air-to-air or some other unique shot then you got the leverage hence ability for a high asking price.


Still better than $0. Good luck.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlinenikog From Israel, joined Sep 2006, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2884 times:

Thanks for advice guys!


Gregory Verba
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