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Come On Guys, Stop Giving Your Shots Away Free!  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2770 times:

Here's a little exchange which I had by e-mail. It is quite typical - someone asks for the shot for commercial purposes, and I ask them for their offer (I find that they usually run away and hide as soon as you give the first number - let them make the first move)

In this case, she says that others are offering theirs for free.

Come on guys, this is not some kid building up a personal home page! This is advertisement! You should get at least $100 per shot, if not more. Those that are giving their shots away are spoiling it for everyone else.

Charles

=========================================

Hmmmm....I have contacted a total of six hotographers for permission to use their photos and none have charged me anything. All they have asked is to receive credit for the photo and the address of the site so they can see the photo. If you still want to charge a fee for the use of your photo, let me know and we will substitute another photo in place of yours that we were
going to use. Thank you!

Regards,

Cindy Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles & Venita Falk"
To: "Cynthia Schneider"
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:02 AM
Subject: RE: Permission to use photo


> Hi,
>
> For any commercial use of my photos, I must charge a fee. What do you normally offer to your photo suppliers?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles Falk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cynthia Schneider [mailto:cynch@pennswoods.net]
> Sent: 13 March 2002 18:10
> To: saracchi@iprolink.ch
> Subject: Permission to use photo
>
>
> I am writing to you to ask your permission to use your photo of the Tag
> Learjet 45 that I found on airliners.net. I work at a small oil company
in
> central Pennsylvania, supplying aviation fuels to airports. We are
building
> a web site and are featuring an aviation page on which we would like to
> include photographs of the type of planes that use our fuel. Your photo
of
> the Learjet would be a perfect addition to our site and I am asking you to
> allow us to use it. We will gladly add your name to the photo as
"Courtesty
> of". Thank you for your consideration.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cynthia Schneider
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Message was sent using the mail interface on Airliners.net
> http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?id=218584


28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlaskaairlines From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2054 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2601 times:

I have to agree with Charles. Can you post that picture in here so we can take a look at which one you mean?

Wish those guys wouldn't spoil it...........

-Dmitry


User currently offlinePUnmuth@VIE From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2596 times:

Lets do a search should we?

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Charles Falk


Peter



-
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2581 times:

If i don't give away my photos for free, my photos don't get used.  Sad

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineJetTrader From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 586 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2571 times:


Maybe this is why the perceived acceptance quality is going up. If the screeners don't admit these "you can use my shot for nothing" photograpers' pictures...then they could charge what they wanted for their own shots.

Mmmmmm.... Wink/being sarcastic

Only kidding!
Dean

PS - I think it's called supply and demand Charles...



Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days ago) and read 2554 times:

Keep in mind that people don't always tell the truth when dealing with you. We got an eMail once that said "I don't see why I should pay when there are so many pictures available on the net". I replied (on my hubbies behalf) and said "ok, go get someone elses pics then" and got an eMail back asking me to let him know who he should speak to ...

HELLO!  Laugh out loud.

Anyway, there really isn't anything you can do if others choose to give their pictures away. Aviation photography is a business to some and a hobby to others. The hobbyists will not charge for their pictures and no amount of whinging will change that. You just have to live with it (like getting most of your pictures rejected by the screening process  Smile/happy/getting dizzy).



VH-ADG


User currently offlineTomH From United States of America, joined May 1999, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

I find these inquiries to be common. Seems to me if they really were legitimate, then we would not see so many of these people simply dissapear once we bring up price. A commercial firm expects to pay for the use of photos. It doesn't matter if they are used in world-wide advertising, or if they are used on a web page.

How each of us responds to this nuisance will of course vary with the individual photographer. They contacted you, and if they have to go to someone else for their images, then it means they are settling for second best. After all, there is something in your image that caught their eye in the first place.

I probably would be more inclined to give images away to these requests except a few years back I got a request for a 30 year old shot of a United B720. The guy making the inquiry said it was for the website of McCarren International airport in Las Vegas. He said up front it was non-profit and they couldn't pay. Really now-Las Vegas? I can't think of a place that is more about profit than Las Vegas, and I told him so. His loss, I figure.



User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2506 times:

Charles is right.

On the one hand, in this particular case, since is web use, and they arent duplicating or making any money off the photo, I'd prolly just let them use it.

BUT

If it ever comes down to duplicating, distributing, or selling our images, WE NEED TO CHARGE!!! These companies can afford it. Recently a friend of mine was asked by Canadair for unlimited usage of one of his photos, and they wanted it for free. When he came back with a price (which was in proportion to what they wanted to use it for) They pretty much blew him off and told him they would get another one for free. Your cant tell me they cant afford it. You have to remember that you are dealing with business people who are in it to save their company money.

This is a hobby to me too, I dont go out and sell my photos, but when I get an offer, I expect to get paid what I deserve.

So Charles is right, stop giving away your stuff for free...If you dont know what to do, post about it in here...

B


User currently offlineAviator100 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2000, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2491 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

N509JB wrote:
"...since is web use, and they arent duplicating or making any money off the photo, I'd prolly just let them use it. BUT If it ever comes down to duplicating, distributing, or selling our images, WE NEED TO CHARGE!!! "

Web use is clearly a form of duplication and distribution and therefore falls under copyright rules. And yes, that company hopes to be making money off the photo, as it will be on a commercial website intended to attract customers. It is perfectly normal to pay a reasonable fee for commercial use. Every publicity or advertising agency is well aware of that!

Regards,
Ad


User currently offlineCkw From UK - England, joined Aug 2010, 713 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

There is something in what Charles says, but each case has to be taken on its merits. I can imagine situations in which I might allow free use because the prestige and PR are worth it - c'mon, is there anyone who wouldn't let Johan use one of their shots on the home page (with a credit)  Smile

But in general, commercial use should entail a fee, but I do think if you expect to be treated in a professional manner, you must deal with the request in a similar way. No offense Charles, but a reply to a request which says, in effect "how much will you give me?" just shouts out AMATUER. I think if you want to sell pics, you must research your market and establish your fees.

Replies to requests should be along the lines of "thanks for your interest ... my terms are ..."

You are providing a product - it is down to you to determine the marketing - and its quite a bit of work. Ask a freelance pro how much time is spent in the field and how much on paperwork, promo, etc. etc. (unless of course they use an agent).

Personally, I have had much more positive results when I stopped shilly-shallying around and just said "that shot will cost you X". True, I may have underpriced in some cases, but a good business plan should be based on what you need to recoup for your service/product NOT what you can gouge out of someone.

We often see comments along the lines of "Boeing can pay big bucks ..." Why? Should a large successful company pay more than a little one? (hint: how did they get to be successful?). Pricing should be based on YOUR estimation of the value of the shot for its intended use.

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
User currently offlineMighluss From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 936 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

As a far-non-professional photographer I found Thom@s photos (for example) as good as most photos from "1st class photographers", so if somebody choose a "non-professional photo" is because he liked it. Why don't pay for it?

For example a friend of mine do illustrations for magazines, and he must charge a minimum prize for his illustrations. (agreed by illutrators)



Miquel.
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2469 times:

Thank you Miquel, anything you liked in particular? Big grin

Anyway, I guess if I ask for money in return for the use of my picture, those who want it just copy it from the website and use it illegally. Or they could ask someone else to use a simillar picture.

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineMighluss From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 936 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2456 times:

I know, if you see your picture in a local magazine or a little website...etc, they are using it illegaly but, what to do? you'll take nothing but headhaches, but in some cases (Canadair?, Oil Company?), I think people must charge something...


P.D. I like DC3 very much...you are very lucky.



Miquel.
User currently offlinePaulc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Joe Pires did a very professional reply to such requests -perhaps that might be of use and get the message across. Those that are lucky enough to get such requests are not wanting to make a fortune, rather just to get the recognition and fee appropriate to the photo usage. Companies would have to pay a photo library for such an image so what is the problem. I would guess that a photo library would charge more than an individual simply because of the overheads involved.




English First, British Second, european Never!
User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5486 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Anyway, I guess if I ask for money in return for the use of my picture, those who want it just copy it from the website and use it illegally

Which is illegal, and they know that...not too many companies are that stupid (well..I know of one...right B?) I agree with Charles on this. If you value your work (hell, most of us whine and complain about getting them on this site, I think most of us do care), then
have the decency to do the research on how much to quote them, or just post it here.


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 48
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Thanks, and yes I am.  Laugh out loud

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineDa fwog From United Kingdom, joined Aug 1999, 867 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

There's a problem of perception and expectations here. Many people perceive all content available on the Internet to be free, and don't expect to have to pay an amateur photographer for using their photo. Many seem to think that we will be so happy that someone else wants our pic that we'll give it away for nothing as long as they mention our name.

There's another issue too. You never know who is asking you for the pic (unless they go out of their way to tell you), or how badly they want it. What I mean is this: sometimes you can have a company who have a team of a couple of people knocking up a website for them. They know a bit about web design, but nothing about the image business, and the company concerned has set aside a measly budget for the project; they're already paying a couple of salaries, plus the cost of hosting the site - that's all there is, right? It never occurs to these people that they have to pay. I've spoken to people who think that because the aircraft is in their livery, they already OWN the rights to the picture (to which I say, ok, just TRY it, and see what happens).

Other times you'll come up against a design house, ad agency, consultancy firm, or in-house team of professionals who realise that intellectual property costs money. They will start out by either making you an offer, or asking you for a price, after giving you details of the exact usage they want. They are not phased by you asking for money, will usually negotiate a mutually acceptable fee with you. They actually reply to your emails, and treat you like a professional instead of like a child.

The other part of this is that you never know how badly they want the image. When I get an email requesting a picture, I have no idea if it's been sent only to me, or to a couple dozen photographers. So sometimes I reply, and I get an immediate response back from someone prepared to either pay up, or negotiate (and that's fine - I don't mind accepting less than my initial asking price after a fair negotiation). Other times, I think they get scared off as soon as I request a fee, and yet other times, I think they use a shotgun approach; ask 10 photographers, and see who's prepared to give the work away for nothing.

I don't think the issue is completely clear-cut. If you want to give away your photos, then that's your right as the copyright owner. But it certanly would be better for all of us if everyone always asked for a fee for commercial use - even if it was only a nominal $25 or so a picture. At least then we could educate some of these people that not everything on the Internet is yours for free!


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

I'm not a photographer but some money for airliners.net for maintaining the site /showing the pics & for you folks to cover (part of ) the costs seems reasonable IMO.

keesje


User currently offlineAviationIvi From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 777 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Hi,
sometimes people ask if I can send them a high res. scan by email. They write they they like the shot(s) and would like to have it as a background picture on their PC, but you never know who they really are and what they really want to do with it, that´s why I never send any.
Probably most of them would not do anything else with it, but you never know...

Regards from rainy FRA
Ivica


User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5486 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

haha, high res scan for their PC wallpaper...i'm waiting for the day I get that email...

User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

Back in the bad old days, there were only a relatively small number of places to buy a particular commodity, or rather the average purchaser was only aware of a limited number of places to buy. In photography terms, these were mainly the image libraries, and those "pros" who were prepared to put in the leg work to get their names known.

The Internet has put downwards pressure on the price of most products and services... cars come to mind, Canon D30s  Big grin, and even photographs. Whilst Charles may want to castigate airliners.net photographers for offering their pictures for a mere credit, there's plenty of other websites and amateurs out there now who will sell for nothing, or next to nothing.

My local photographic retailer doesn't like the fact that I can buy a D30 for £1299 when he's selling them for £1699, but its a fact of life now... Whilst none of us might like the idea that someone will sell for less than we'd like, its a fact of the new global economy - there'll always be more places to acquire from, at probably lower prices.


User currently offlineAviationIvi From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 777 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

"...those who want it just copy it from the website and use it illegally"

"Which is illegal, and they know that...not too many companies are that stupid..."

I know one Big grin
Maybe some of you can remember this one (it was here in the forum a few months ago):

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Ivica Ramljak - FRA Spotting



A future airline (I doubt that they will ever take off) has used this one without my permission in many newspapers. Later I told them to pay 300 Euros but they only wanted to pay 150. I had to prove that I own the copyright and so on. Since then (about 3 weeks ago) I did not hear anything, although their lawyer told me that they will pay for it, but now my lawyer will for sure "win the race".

Regards
Ivica


User currently offlineN509JB From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

and yet other times, I think they use a shotgun approach; ask 10 photographers, and see who's prepared to give the work away for nothing.

Unfortunatly, I believe this to be the case more often then not.


AviationIvi:

If I saw one of my photos in a newspaper w/out my permission, I'd open up a SERIOUS can of whoop ass! Take 'em for all their worth!

On a side note...I went to school for this kinda thing, so if any of you have questions about this, please post them on here instead of giving the photo away for free...I'll help the best I can!

B


User currently offlinePlanedoctor From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 286 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2350 times:

Charles,

Photography is one of those things like the music industry, where the flood of amateur enthusiasm may seem to spoil it for those really wanting to make money. Those of you trying to earn a living or at least some income off photography already know that it isn't easy. You didn't get this far and then say "Hey! Nobody told me it was going to be this hard to make a buck!" It is a fact of life you have to roll with or get out. No amount of whining is going to change the market- I don't care if you use a.net or cnn.com to try to appeal to other amateurs to stop giving stuff away.

There will always be a photographer out there willing to do it for less than you. If you are serious about making money, you have to give the magazines or other clients a reason to select your work and pay for it. You have to beat the other guys out so that when the magazine/ newspaper/airline wants a commissioned photographer, you are at the top of their list. If you want to make money, you have to go that far or else find a new career. That is the tough breaks of the photo business, or any business. If I can get a free frosty at Wendy's, why pay two bucks at McDonalds for one?

I am not saying that photographers don't deserve compensation for hard work, or that people should steal your photos. I am saying that they can't expect others to change to make their job easier. If I want to give my photographs away, it is my perogative, and not my responsibility to make sure you are getting a fair price on your photo sales. Sorry about that, it's just the way it goes. If it is eating into your sales, then it's time to find a way to adapt to the changing world.

-Ken


User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Brian (N509JB),
im a bit confused about what you've said on this thread- earlier you said:

On the one hand, in this particular case, since is web use, and they arent duplicating or making any money off the photo, I'd prolly just let them use it.

=============

then you continue with:

On a side note...I went to school for this kinda thing, so if any of you have questions about this, please post them on here instead of giving the photo away for free...I'll help the best I can!

B

+++++++++++++++++++

so now i say- what you said at first is not right cause if it is then some airline can take one of your 747 pics and put them on their very very commercial money making site for free, so letting them use it is not a good idea. Additionally you said you went to school for this, so that fact alone worries me if indeed you feel that giving a jpg away for website use is ok.

Please clarify, cause im confused

Joe




25 Staffan : I see similarities between this, and what is currently going on in the airline business. Certain, "airlines" (that's what they like to call themselves
26 Post contains links ExitRow : If any of you are unfamiliar with art buying (in reference to photography), I highly suggest Photo District News' Photo Business Services section on t
27 Post contains images Jan Mogren : Yeah, those prices are more like it! /JM
28 Post contains images N509JB : In Charles' email, I didn’t get the impression that they would be making money off the photo. Perhaps there is something that was excluded, or somet
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