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Comparing D100 NEF Output To Jpeg Output  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
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Yesterday I ran a little test to compare softness with D100 images shot in JPEG vs. something shot in NEF.

Well, the NEF file, converted to JPEG through Nikon Capture 3 is quite a bit sharper than the JPEG fine shot. Guess that means I better start saving for more CF cards  Sad

NEF > JPEG http://www.clickhappy.com/to_home/dsc_1461_nef.jpg

JPEG from the camera http://www.clickhappy.com/to_home/dsc_1462.jpg


60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLGW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Or use JPEG and use Unsharp Mask...saves on CF cards!

LGW


User currently offlineVaman From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

For being a close up, the Jpeg is horribly soft. UGH. What lens were you using and also, how big are the NEF's.

thanks and I enjoy your pictures

L


User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2195 times:

while it is not an action shot, nor is it with 2x converter, i must say Royal that your nef-jpg shot from the D100 is the best out of the camera output i've seen yet from anyone on these threads. It is quite good. My only problem is that your straight from the camera jpg is certainly lacking in the sharpness dept- granted, a good dslr raw/nef should look like your nef-jpg shot (slightly soft), not the straight jpg shot. This leads me to believe that there is a problem perhaps with your camera? not to belabor the D60 whichi ofcourse I tend to do, but when I shoot in raw or jpg fine, both outputs are exactly, I mean exactly alike. Perhaps our resident d100 gangsters maclaughlin or boreda can weigh in on this. I continue to believe that this ongoing dslr discussion is extremely beneficial to many folks here.

Joe


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2188 times:
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Or use JPEG and use Unsharp Mask...saves on CF cards!

Because you can't sharpen what isn't there!

I didn't buy a DSLR to compromise quality, I bought it to get the best shots possible. If that means more memory, so be it.



User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Can't help with the D100 at this level Joe because ah, I don't have a D100  Big grin I know my RAW slides from the F5 are perfect  Smile

Are the straight from the camera .jpgs with or without incamera sharpening? or any kind of incamera post-shot processing?

Michael


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

I didn't buy a DSLR to compromise quality, I bought it to get the best shots possible. If that means more memory, so be it.

I'm not a digital (well, not DSLR i do own a 2mp digital) user but why in the world would anyone want to shoot .jpg instead of RAW? Maybe you digital guys could advise...

Michael


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2182 times:
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Joe, one of the hottest topics in the Nikon forums is the soft JPEG output.

Here is an excellent article:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond100/page11.asp

to quote: There is a noticeable difference in sharpness between JPEG Fine and RAW, the PC based RAW conversion software has much more processing power available and does appear to apply slightly more sharpening to the image before output (default settings were used to convert the RAW image).

Vaman - here are the "facts" on the NEF shot:



User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Royal writes:
"Joe, one of the hottest topics in the Nikon forums is the soft JPEG output."
================

Royal you dont actually want me to respond to that do you?

 Big grin


User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Mike, its a personal preference, I know Andy Hunt shoots in jpg only. Like I told him, to me, thats photographic suicide, but Switzerland, like the U.S. is a free country and you can shoot in whatever mode your little heart desires  Big grin

Joe


User currently offlineLGW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

" but Switzerland, like the U.S. is a free country " - Correct Joe - free, shame UK is only half free being that we seemed to be ruled more by the EU than our own government!

Anyway, back to the topic, I shoot only in jpeg fine on my DSLR because I need the CF space! I dont find any problems with shooting jpeg so far I will give RAW a try soon but you loose so much space on those CF cards!


Ouch! I thought the D30/60's where meant to be soft but that jpeg D100 shot is as soft as a marshmallow!

Is that the standard D100 jpeg sharpeness? If so then Joe has NOTHING to worry about, when he says the D60 is best  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

LGW


User currently offlineAndyhunt From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1306 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2162 times:
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Joe,

Checking in......!

A couple of definition questions. I assume "raw" is a TIFF file. Correct or not?

How big is a raw file on the D60. For an S1 the highest setting is: Hi(RGB) Image size 3040X2016 and the file size is about 16MB.

Looking for claricification here!

Andrew




Full frame always beats post processing
User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Have you guys thought about IBM microdrives? I am getting a 1Gb version with my D60, it fits about 140 pics in RAW mode and about 400 in Fine-Large jpeg.

Wietse



Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Andy,

A Canon D60 RAW is about 7,5mb. The largest and best quality is about 2.5mb I think.

RAW is not TIFF, it is just the image the sensor saw, without any alteration. You can later transfer it to a TIFF image, resulting in a file of about 35MB.

Correct me If im wrong here..

Wietse



Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

A couple of definition questions. I assume "raw" is a TIFF file. Correct or not?

If I'm correct, RAW is not a tiff file. RAW is what the acutal sensors sees/records (untouched) and needs to be converted to a tiff/jpg/etc.

Wouldn't you (not direct at you Andy, more like everybody) want the best quality image possible and later reducing to whatever you need rather than taking a lower quality (while still very good) original?

Michael


User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

Gentlemen, a most interesting discussion...

Canon RAW: roughly 6.5MB
when you take that RAW and convert to 16 bit TIFF, it becomes a 38MB file.
Technically, a RAW is not a TIFF, it is rather a compressed TIFF and as Colin has said in the past, permits you up or down a full 2 stops- thats TWO stops which is tremendous latitude which only a RAW offers in 16bit mode- something no jpg can give you, hence when I say that by shooting jpg you are committing photographic suicide.

Ben, get a 1gig microdrive and you can fit plenty of RAW's in there

Like I always say- I didnt just spend almost 4 thousand dollars to shoot jpg....

Joe


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

How's that for you Andy, 3 explantions of RAW in less than a second  Big grin

Michael


User currently offlineWietse From Netherlands, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

I do plan to shoot in RAW, and for the reason you said.. Michael. No compromise in the beginning.. It may be the worst mistake you ever made... What if you need the best possible quality or what when those 2 stops are exactly what you need to save the pic.

Wietse




Wietse de Graaf
User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

Andy wrote: How big is a raw file on the D60. For an S1 the highest setting is: Hi(RGB) Image size 3040X2016 and the file size is about 16MB.
==============

Andy, thinking about this some more- the D60 produces an image similar to your 3040 wide, but with a bit more than twice the MB at 16bit. What does Don's wonder machine do, I think its like 4000 wide with like 50mb in 16bit.

Joe


User currently offlineAAGOLD From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 548 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:
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The D100 with an IBM 1GB microdrive gets 107 pictures in RAW format. TIF RGB image quality large 59 pictures. JPEG Fine Large 318 pictures. I fill the 1GB microdrive, plug it into the PC to download and have several CF cards to carry me over until it downloads. So far I've only shot RAW, no JPEGs to send as samples.

Art


User currently offlineJoe pries From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1957 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

Mike goes to show you how interested people are in this, there are still alot of prospective dslr buyers here reading these words (including you and cairless, mike) and they are very very interested in output, thats why again, i'm very dissapointed that more folks are not showing off what their cameras can produce in order to help others make decisions. We've seen the DAS DC10 and Royal's offerings- we would like to see more.

Joe


User currently offlineAndyhunt From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1306 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2143 times:
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So guys, (agreed very interesting discussion, the learning curve gets steeper!)

TIFF is better than RAW...as RAW is a compressed TIFF file? This is slightly confusing.

Joe: WHat exactly is my disadvantage with jpg? The photos look fine, they print fine, the magazines accept them fine. Agreed, RAW/TIFF is better, no question, but is it like comparing a BMW (RAW) with a Mercedes (jpg) or a BMW with a Subaru???

Thanks for the help and advice.

Andrew



Full frame always beats post processing
User currently offlineAndyhunt From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1306 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2142 times:
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PHOTO SCREENER

Mike,

The advice is coming faster than I can say THANKS!!!! Big grin

Andrew



Full frame always beats post processing
User currently offlineCarlos Borda From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 538 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

How come my name keeps getting involved in this?? I'm not a DSLR shooter... just a future prospective buyer of one also.

~Carlos

>>Mike goes to show you how interested people are in this, there are still alot of prospective dslr buyers here reading these words (including you and cairless, mike) and they are very very interested in output, thats why again, i'm very dissapointed that more folks are not showing off what their cameras can produce in order to help others make decisions. We've seen the DAS DC10 and Royal's offerings- we would like to see more.

Joe<<


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

RAW is not a compressed TIFF as joe mentioned. RAW is just that, a RAW capture of the sensor, untouched. Anything other than a RAW requires the camera to "work on" the image to convert it to TIFF/JPG. With RAW, you have the power to "work on" it yourself.

Michael


25 Andyhunt : Then it looks like the S1 has no raw mode. Methinks.................. Andrew
26 Mikephotos : Yes, Joe people are very interested. But unless you have a fair test it's tough to view examples from a.net users to base your final purchase on. I kn
27 Joe pries : Carlos- because you are very strongly opinionated, frequently making comments about dslr output quality and hence that makes you involved. Andy- a TIF
28 Post contains images Andyhunt : OK, Joe, Mike et al, Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. Ok back to some screening, time to reject all of your photos Andrew
29 Joe pries : I disagree Mike, I think alot of people have already made up their minds by seeing some of the output in this thread- whether you want to believe that
30 Mikephotos : Well, if it's true Joe then they are fools of it's based only on photos viewed at a.net. Yes, i said fool because if you are going to buy a $2000 DSLR
31 Post contains images Clickhappy : sorry, I actually had to do some work! Microdrives are sketchy. I don't know that I trust them. It would suck to loose that many shots all in one "ban
32 Joe pries : Mike i think you're dead wrong. People here who are about to buy a dslr are far from fools by seeing whats being offered on ainet- especially out of t
33 Mikephotos : Joe, then you are truly a fool if you believe that. I know you don't. Show me one person who said "I purchased a D60 based ONLY on the few pics I saw
34 Andyhunt : Joe: I think Mike was more alluding to people making their own opinions based on testing the camera themselves. And why is the Japanese person obscure
35 Mikephotos : Andy, don't worry about Joe. He's just blowing smoke to get me (us) worked up. I just like to keep it going for a while but EVERYONE knows that only a
36 Joe pries : Andy, you are not 100% but 1000% right- maybe it was canon sponsored- youve proven my point- that you trust shots from every day people, shooting the
37 Carlos Borda : Joe you seem to think that everyone else out there lives on their PC's and reads the forums at a minute by minute pace every single day, day after day
38 Post contains images Andyhunt : Conclusion: You're both right. A win / win scenario. perfect. Now we just need you two to agree! Andrew
39 Mikephotos : Ok, Joe so lets say you are in the market for a new D60 (you don't have one right now) You come to a.net for your idea of a review/test. You see these
40 Joe pries : Mike this is why i put up that CO737 shot- for you to see what the D60 can do in tough conditions- 2x converter, full 640mm. If the camera can handle
41 Mikephotos : What does it show? It shows me that the D60, D100 and S2 raws look so similar that to me in the end my purchase decision would be based on aspects oth
42 Post contains images Joe pries : You're 100% right Mike, the CO737, DAS DC10 and the Thai 777 nose- they all look exactly alike. I need new glasses I guess.
43 Mikephotos : tough conditions? joe...please, it was sunny, clear and the temp was nice. lets get real, that was far from tough conditions. lets see blizzard shots
44 Mikephotos : You're 100% right Mike, the CO737, DAS DC10 and the Thai 777 nose- they all look exactly alike. I need new glasses I guess. I see you left out the BA
45 Post contains images AAGOLD : OK, Joe, here's one to tear apart. Shot yesterday. Sorry it's not full bore, but it's from NET to TIF to JPEG and not post processing. The details ...
46 Joe pries : I think this shot is quite good Art, best "out of the camera" D100 ive seen so far on this thread- though I still think that if you examine your 757 w
47 Mikephotos : Art, THANK YOU BUDDY! Goes to show, the D100 is very much up to par. GREAT SHOT!!! and yes, I actually think it's better than the CO 737 shot. But aga
48 Carlos Borda : That one looks great Art... great job! And your shot is in exactly the same spot that Joe took his beige CO 737 shot from. Only difference is that yes
49 Joe pries : Mike while its good, its far from CMOS smoothness- not even close in that regard- go look at the CO737 again, like medium format.
50 Post contains images Sukhoi : How many threads on the same subject? Andy no RAW on the S1 you need to get an S2, oh I forgot there crap oh and so is the S1 but you know that alread
51 AAGOLD : Joe, I'm not a hundred percent sure I'd call your shot of the 737 smoother. I think it has a little deeper color (look at the gold strip along the fus
52 Post contains images Joe pries : Art, while you have presented us with the best image so far, still I have no regrets about my D60, I still very firmly believe that the CMOS chip is t
53 Mikephotos : Not depressed Joe just very disappointed that none of the D100 users posted the true quality behind the D100. It's nothing against them, they've only
54 AAGOLD : Joe, I didn't expect to change your opinion about your D60. That's the furthest thing from my mind. Personally you've taken some of the most spectacul
55 Post contains images Carlos Borda : This is really the best way to slug this out.... Art, Joe and Don all very well experienced photogs side by side @ FLL in January taking the same exac
56 Db777 : For those of you interested in RAW and TIF sizes, the S2 produces RAWs sized at 4256 by 2848 that are 12.4MB in size. I can get 79 or 80 of them onto
57 Post contains images Tonimr : First, answering to Royal: I shot RAW whenever I can: 108 RAW photos in a 1GB Microdrive for a day out is more than enough for a normal day at my loca
58 Planephoto : Royal... have you compared the color modes (Color I (sRGB), Color II etc). Just wondering if you see any color quality difference in the 3 modes? I ca
59 JeffM : Scott, I can see the difference in Color II. That's what I used strright out of the box, until I read the manual. Color II is an Adobe color space pro
60 Post contains links Clickhappy : good read: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond100/page11.asp Color modes: I, II & III Here's how the D100's manual describes each color mode: I - (
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