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Why Coarser Grain In Higher Speed Films?  
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

I cannot understand why high speed films have coarser grain. Isn't it possible for a 400 or 800 film to have fine grain? Why?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1367 times:

Good question. I can't say I know the answer. They CAN make films that have both high speed and low grain - the problem is shelf life. I'm sure that Kodak or Fuji can develop a 1000 speed film with all the finesse and color of a 100 speed film, the problem is that its shelf life out of a freezer will be measured in hours or maybe a couple of days.

Fuji's Provia 100F is fantastic, and it's performance is on par with 25 speed films (even better - Provia's grain index is better than Kodachome 25) but the downside is that if you leave it in the camera for more than a few weeks, the colors will start to change. Wheras the K25 can stay in the camera a couple of years without any problem.

Cheers,

Charles


User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1367 times:

You mean that it will spoil if it is in the camera. What if it is developed and stored with other negatives?

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

Once developed, it will be fine. One of the steps of developing film is "fixing", which basically renders inert all chemical processes which can change the colors.

Even Kodachrome, with its legendary longevity, has a shelf life of only a couple of years, when undeveloped. Professional films also have a shelf life of a couple of years, but require refregeration until they are used and developed.

I have a Provia film in my camera which I need hurry up and finish, since it has been there for over 2 weeks now. Of course, I could put the whole camera in the fridge, but my wife might object  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles


User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Hey Charles i took your advice and shot a roll (just 1 Smile ) of the provia 100, i think i really like it alot, a few pics are waiting for upload but a few of them are by far my sharpest pictures, absolutely no grain whatsoever, i couldnt stop looking at them!!

I'll post a few once they are processed here..

CHRIS


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

I went the other way - for fairness' sake. While I used K64 a lot many years ago, (not aviation pics) I bought a roll (just one  Smile) of K64, so that I can do a side-by-side comparison.

It'll be tough to convince me, though. The cost of the K64 including development is more than what I pay for Provia and seperate development together.

Cheers,

Charles


User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

What camera do you use Charles?


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

I use a Canon EOS 50. In January I bought a Sigma 28-300 Aspherical lens, but have not posted anything from that lens yet, all my posted pics are with Canon USM lenses, either 75-300 or 100-300.

For places like the Frankfurt terrace, where you have both planes at long distances and passing right in front of you, I also used an EOS 500N, which I kept with a shorter lens, but now with the Sigma lens I don't need to have 2 cameras around my neck, so I keep it with print film for family shots and such.

I have some films being developed now based on the Sigma lens which should be posted once I've catalogued them all, hopefully next weekend.

Charles


User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Okay, i say screw it, im posting one of my provia pics now... Where did the grain go????

Free Preview!!! (thank you, thank you)





CHRIS


User currently offlineUsairways@clt From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1340 times:

Chris:

You're pics keep on getting better. There is not one BIT of grain there!

Screw Sensia!!!

Keep em coming,
Zach


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

Chris, this is an amazing picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No grain, great colors.

May I know, what equipment you used? You said it was a Fuji Provia 100, right? Which scanner did you use? And what did you do after scanning (sharpening, ...)?

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

heres the equip:

Canon EOS rebel S
75-300mm USM IS lens

HP S20 scanner.. i didnt really do anything in scanning, just normal sharpening, the picture did the rest...

I could not have asked for better lighting conditions.. (if only i worked at a bigger airport  Smile/happy/getting dizzy )

CHRIS




User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

You are going to upload that picture here on a.net, right?  Smile

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Awesome, Chris! Delta could use it as a publicity shot.

Keep 'em coming.

Charles


User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

What shutter speed did you use?

User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

hey lewis, to be honest i dont remember 100%, but im pretty sure it was 1/125



C


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Chris, the more I see this picture, the more I have the urgent feeling, that I have to try the Fuji Provia. Do you recieve any money from Fuji for posting your statements?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Boy, what a publicity for their films!!

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

AHhh.. kind thank you!! yeah fuji owes me for advertisement... but then, shouldnt Nike pay people to wear shirts with the "shwoosh" on it?

Anyway, the conditions were more than perfect for that particular shot, lighting was great. My scanner had a hard time picking up the dark portions of these pictures though, in order to get rid of the little green spots i had to darken the "shadows" which made the other pictures all a bit darker... oh well..

thanks again.

CHRIS


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

It depends: if a real bear belly wears Nike shirts, I don't know, if this is what Nike wants to communicalte to the world  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy but then again, we're getting off topic.

The original topic was about grainy films. So we have definitely Fuji Provia on the list for good films. In my opinion, the Kodak Elitechrome 100 has a tiny little bit more grain, or am I wrong?

Today I saw a photo magazine with some nature and wild life pictures. There were about 15 pics, and only 3 were taken with Elitechrome, the rest with Fuji Provia. This might be a coincidence, but perhaps it is a sign....

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Elitechrome and Provia are not entirely comparable. Elitechrome seems to be the top end of the consumer film segment (or at least pretty damned close to it). Provia is professional film, which will provide better grain and color performance, at the cost of strict limitations on storage and handling.

If you can deal with storing your films in the fridge, and not leaving films in your camera for long periods, I strongly recomend Provia. If your camera needs to stay in the car a lot or otherwise gets a bit of heat abuse, and if you only take a few shots here and there and the film stays in the camera for weeks at a time, Elitechrome will remain undamaged longer than Provia.

Cheers,

Charles


User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

Alright guys, gotta give Charles the kudos for this small batch of shots, the grain is definetely better than any other film ive used. Check em out, they're pretty sharp...

(by the way, for some reason the uploaded versions seem more grainy than the origs.. but thats another story..)


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris weldy



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris weldy



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris weldy



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris weldy




....this looks very grainy for some reason, the orig. isnt this bad.. oh well, still kinda cool:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Chris weldy



There are a few more just on that roll... will get to those another day...

Gracias Mr. Falk for the film tip...


CHRIS


User currently offlineChris28_17 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1439 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1280 times:

Hey speaking of shelf life, try and follow this, i do actually have a point to make....

Okay, less than 2 weeks im flying out to HNL for a week and a half. On the way im stopping for a night in LAX, only the first few days in HNL will be spent spotting at the airport, (i know a few guys there to take me around) then, coming home im stopping for a day or so in LAX again, meeting up w/ a few A.net guys.

okay, for most of the week in hawaii im going to use royal gold 100 print film for the non-aviation pics im gonna take during the time spent with family, BUT, due to the current turn of events, i would like to have some provia 100 for: The first night in LAX, the first few days in HNL, and then the stay in LAX on my way home.

Okay, most likely-case-scenario i wont be able to hook up w/ a lab down there, so i'll have to bring the pics back home... While im there, i will be able to refrigerate the film, but they are going to be cooled, then "thawed out" numerous times, with all the various traveling.... will this effect the film in a negative way? (no pun intended)


*whew* okay, i REALLY hope you followed all that and got the question, i've been awake now for about 20 hours straight and not thinking 100% clearly...

CHRIS


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Hi Chris,

About the pics, Johan does apply some compression to the pics. When I upload my photos, they are between 350-550K, but end up only 160K or so. You can (just) see the difference but it's a reasonable balance between server space and quality.

About your trip, I do trips like this all the time. if you stay in the same place for more than a few days, go ahead and stick it in the fridge. You can even take it in and out of the cold if you have to, but only if you have never opened the plastic film canister.

But for just a few weeks, you could leave them out without a problem, as long as it's not on the windowledge under the sun. Once exposed, put them back in the fridge if possible, and have them developed as soon as you get home.

Charles


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

By the way, great pics. I particularly like the propjet one.

Charles


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