Sponsor Message:
Travel Polls & Prefs Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What If:MDD Would Still Around And Build The MD12  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7970 times:

Just wondering if MDD would be still around and the MD 12 would have been build would all the hardcore Boeing fans complaining about this hideous aircraft like they do now about the A380 and would all the die hard Airbus fans that defend the A380 no matter what would do the same with the MD 12 ?
Also what airlines would have gone for the MD 12. Would we see AF and LH operating it (if there would be no A380 instead) and would ANA and JAL have ordered it ?

I consider myself as an aviation enthusiast and airliner fan and really have no understanding about all this A vs B nonsense.






It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

If there was MD-12´s flying now there wouldn´t be any A380. Curious what engines it would have back then.

Micke// 

[Edited 2006-11-25 01:00:44]


Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7841 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Most likely if the MD-12 has launched, Boeing would have responded much the same way they did with the A3XX/A380, with revised 747 models. I do not believe they would have gone forward with the NLA program.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Curious what engines it would have back then.

According to Wikipedia, the GE CF6-80C2.


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7824 times:

I thought I read somewhere (maybe A.Net forum) that McDonnell Douglas was losing money, and if Boeing wouldn't have bought them, they would have been out of business anyways. Is that true?

User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Just wondering if MDD would be still around and the MD 12 would have been build would all the hardcore Boeing fans complaining about this hideous aircraft like they do now about the A380 and would all the die hard Airbus fans that defend the A380 no matter what would do the same with the MD 12 ?

I think that it is better looking than the A380.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I thought I read somewhere (maybe A.Net forum) that McDonnell Douglas was losing money, and if Boeing wouldn't have bought them, they would have been out of business anyways. Is that true?

It is also possible that Airbus or some other aviation company would have bought MD. They tried to have partnership with Airbus and a Japanese company before Boeing bought them.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7716 times:

MD was making money on the military side, not much on the civil side that is why Boeing bought them. The land MD had in the Los Angeles area was worth too much to keep being used for aircraft manufacture. By the time Boeing bought them, the 3 engine DC-10/MD-11 was pretty much obsolete, the DC-9/MD-80/717 was pretty much obsolete too in many people's eyes. MD really had no 'midsized' 2 engine like the A-300 or 767 series. Most airlines want to deal with the fewest number of manufactures and MD didn't really offer the range of a/c they need to stick to fewer companies.
Unless they used the engines developed for the A-380 in the mid-1990's, the idea of it wouldn't have flown. MD probably wouldn't have attracted the investment needed and foreign companies would have been limited due the to military side. I also suspect that the world would not have been ready for a MD-12 by the mid to late 1990's, so if they developed it, assuming they could have afforded it, it may have been obsolete quickly and having less than desirable performance due the new materials and so on we have now have.


User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7536 times:

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 4):
Quoting Columba (Thread starter):Just wondering if MDD would be still around and the MD 12 would have been build would all the hardcore Boeing fans complaining about this hideous aircraft like they do now about the A380 and would all the die hard Airbus fans that defend the A380 no matter what would do the same with the MD 12 ?
I think that it is better looking than the A380.

And the reason is simple, while the 747 has it's cockpit on the upper deck and looks like an ugly chimp and the A380 has the cockpit on the lower deck and looks rather like a ugly alien, the MD concept seems to have had the cockpit in the middle between the decks waisting revenue space on both decks obviously only to make the study look proportionate.



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7427 times:

@MBJ2000

Ermm...A380 dont have the c/p on lower deck, it´s between lower n upper deck.

Micke//  Smile



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineGeorgiaAME From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7369 times:

Boeing would have been forced to pull the 2707 plans off the shelf. Those wanting bargain basement priced tickets would be flying the MD-12, those willing to fly business class or higher would be flying supersonic.

Isn't it awful when reality gets in the way of fantasy?



"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7344 times:

IMHO The A380 seems more finished and up to date than the MD-12 pictures. However, it seems that the smaller seating capacity would have made more sense in the current market situation. With a direct competitor to the 747-400/-8 and a stretch model that would be in the same size as the current A380.


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineBR076 From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 1086 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7273 times:

Funny to see those hairdryers on the MD 12  Smile


ú
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7218 times:

If the government is so concerned about "antitrust" issues these days, they should never have allowed Boeing to buy McDonnell Douglas. McDD was not going to fail. The govt created a monopoly there, as blatant as could be.


Imagine the freighter an MD-12F would be...


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7196 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
Unless they used the engines developed for the A-380 in the mid-1990's, the idea of it wouldn't have flown. MD probably wouldn't have attracted the investment needed and foreign companies would have been limited due the to military side. I also suspect that the world would not have been ready for a MD-12 by the mid to late 1990's, so if they developed it, assuming they could have afforded it, it may have been obsolete quickly and having less than desirable performance due the new materials and so on we have now have.

Actually, the 777 engines are more than powerful enough to have flown the MD-12....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineSonic67 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7196 times:

Hypothetically... if they had built MD-12, what year would the maiden flight have been and who would have been the launch customer?  Confused

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4329 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7137 times:

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Just wondering if MDD would be still around and the MD 12 would have been build

The fact that MDD did not get the plane beyond the concept stage speaks volumes about the market for a VLA. Although MDD was making money, that was due primarily to its defense business. Its commercial side had stagnated and it was looking to jump-start it by proposing the MD-12. Unfortunately, it couldn't convince investors that the market was big enough to provide a reasonable ROI and the project languished.

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 4):
I think that it is better looking than the A380

Had it moved to the design stage I'm sure it would have come out looking quite different than the illustrations you see and more like the A380. Aircraft in conceptual form usually reflect a heavy dose of imagination because they have not been exposed to the rigors of detailed engineering design and testing as well as manufacturing costs.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineKingAirMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

I would have rather seen the MD12 in development then the A380 anyday . .

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7080 times:

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 13):
Hypothetically who would have been the launch customer?

Pan Am.  Big grin  Big grin

Also, the MD12 would not have been a "true double Decker" as the upper level was similar in width to the upper deck of a 747.


User currently offlineBR076 From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 1086 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7023 times:

Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 15):
I would have rather seen the MD12 in development then the A380 anyday . .

And that is why? Let me guess because it would be a superior American product lol



ú
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I thought I read somewhere (maybe A.Net forum) that McDonnell Douglas was losing money, and if Boeing wouldn't have bought them, they would have been out of business anyways. Is that true?

Douglas built aircraft with antiquated technology. I was there, believe me, it's true. I went to work one Saturday to do QA on an MD11 fuselage section join. They were lining up the hull sections with a laser device and when I admired it they said it was a lot nicer than the level and transit they'd ben using the week before. The sections were supported on screw jacks that ran on rails in the floor. When one had to come up or down a mechanic went out and whanged the screw jack with a hammer. Then they'd drill holes and shoot fasteners manually. I got home and watched a PBS special on Airbus and they were doing a completely automated fuselage join, including drilling and shooting the fasteners. I knew right then my beloved Douglas was doomed and I started planning for the layoffs that were a few years in the future.

Paradoxically, the engineering had to be more conservative to make up for the weaknesses in the production process, so they were built with butted skin splices and forged doublers, rather than the more common clinker built Boeings.

Quoting BR076 (Reply 17):
And that is why? Let me guess because it would be a superior American product lol

You, sir, are 100 per cent right, for once. See, even a European gets it occasionally.


 Wink  Wink  Wink  Wink


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6817 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I thought I read somewhere (maybe A.Net forum) that McDonnell Douglas was losing money, and if Boeing wouldn't have bought them, they would have been out of business anyways. Is that true?

That is true, but as mentioned, it was only the civil aircraft that were losing money. If they shut down their commercial aircraft factories and only built military aircraft like Lockheed they could probably have survived. If McDonnell Douglas continued and was able to finance a MD12, it would probably have been a twin engine type. Most of the four engine aircraft now are headed for freight service and who knows what will happen with the A380.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 11):
If the government is so concerned about "antitrust" issues these days, they should never have allowed Boeing to buy McDonnell Douglas. McDD was not going to fail. The govt created a monopoly there, as blatant as could be.

By the mid nineties MD was preety a much done as a commercial aircraft producer. In addition by that time Airbus had surpased MD as Boeing's biggest competitor. So in essence the government created a duopoly. On the military side Boeing still has to compete with the likes of Lockheed and Northrup Grumman. No monopoly there.

As for MD failing you must remember that they still had military production. The C-17, F-15, F-18 and T-45. Then there was the rocket side of the house.


User currently offlineElvis777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

Hi Columba,

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I consider myself as an aviation enthusiast and airliner fan and really have no understanding about all this A vs B nonsense.

With all due respect this smacks of conceit and superiority and perhaps a bit neive as well. There are many shades of blue in the world, I imagine there are just as many shades of "Aviation Enthusiasts and airliner fans". B/C I prefer a certain manufacturer over another does not diminish my enthusiasm for aircraft, And if I prefer AA to LH it also does not make me less of an airliner fan than you. Perhaps it has something to do with precision. Precision and engineering as well as pride in what one does. Perhaps that is something you can understand. There is a difference between BMW and a Trabant. Now to ask a true Trabant aficionado that he like a BMW more than his car or he is less of an auto enthusiast is foolish and also wrong. I understand that an example is not the way to convince you, but I hope to stir your sentiments and perhaps make you see, as well as others, that for me to like a certain aircraft manufacturer (only) is as natural as for you to like ALL aircraft manufacturers (that is what you were trying to say right?). The sky is no less blue nor less Bernoulli's equations less elegant to me or to you because of my point of view. One can look at things a bit differently i.e the first is just cross section/transition probability in quantum mechanics and the other is a boundary value hydrodynamic eq.


You know the argument can be made that the 380 whalejet is a really bad idea for eads and so ultimately it will hurt eads which in turn will hurt aviation in general. One may or may not agree with the above premise but if one does then a TRUE aviation enthusiast and airline fan would insist on fighting against the construction of the 380. This could be his badge of honor. Fighting for what is right! Yes I can see how Antoine de Saint-Exupéry would come from the heavens and anoint those that fight against the 380 as a righteous man who is truly his brothers keeper! And he dressed in full regalia, leather jacket, old style aviation goggles and calfskin gloves would annoint such a man as "A TRUE Aviation Enthusiast"...

Sigh.

Anyway back to your post. I think that if McD was still in the business of making passenger birds they would have rejected the MD12 as a nifty idea but one with a limited market and so would not have built it. They probably would have gone with a replacement fro the MD11, 2 engine.. ALA 777/330... And if they did not, I as a TRUE aviation enthusiast would be speaking against it... Awaiting St. Exupéry to come down and help me strike those that would attempt to poison and destroy our brethren (aviation in general).

 Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Wink  mischievous   spin   spin 

Just my 2c !

Respectfully

Elvis777

Oh yeah: Peace.



Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 21):
There are many shades of blue in the world, I imagine there are just as many shades of "Aviation Enthusiasts and airliner fans". B/C I prefer a certain manufacturer over another does not diminish my enthusiasm for aircraft,

While I won't go as far as saying "naive", "conceit" or "superiority"...I too have a preference for certain planes (quite obvious.. bigthumbsup  ), that doesn't mean I don't love other planes too... Smile


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777
MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jacobin777




"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

Even if MDD was making tones of money they would have had to join in an alliance with Boeing or Airbus. They simply didn't have the economy of scale and deep pockets of the other two. It would be interesting to see Belugas taking sub assemblies to TLS for MDD!

User currently offlinePEK18R36L From China, joined Dec 2005, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 22 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
MD really had no 'midsized' 2 engine like the A-300 or 767 series.

I thought I had recalled some discussion about making the MD-11 a twin rather than a triple, then I checked back and found a couple of skeptical articles from just after Boeing introduced the 7X7 (later to become the T7) questioning the viability and acceptance of a long-range twin.

Did MD ever consider two blowers on the MD-11 rather than 3?

David



In China, everything is possible - but nothing is easy.
25 Columba : @Elvis777 I see your point but let me explain how I see it. I like airplanes -not companies-I prefer some airplanes from Airbus over Boeing and some B
26 LTU932 : Good question. They did consider two engines for the original DC-10, but later decided to go with a trijet instead of a twin. Granted, in the late 60
27 TrijetsRMissed : I agree with you. As an airliner enthusiast, I look at this as the final nail in the coffin as the end of an era that featured all the classic jets.
28 747400sp : The MD12 had a 24ft wide three ailes cabin. So even if the upper deck was the width upper deck of a 747, the MD12 could still go head to head with Ai
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What If Eastern Won The MIA-LHR Route? posted Sat Nov 4 2006 21:10:40 by 747400sp
What If: DL Shuts Down....for FLL And BDL posted Sun Apr 2 2006 23:15:46 by FLAIRPORT
What If The 747 Had Never Flown? posted Mon May 2 2005 22:12:01 by Moose1226
What If The A380 Crashes During First Test Flight? posted Fri Aug 20 2004 11:09:06 by FJWH
If You Had $3000 What Airline Stock Would You Buy? posted Sat Jul 3 2004 09:31:06 by Iowaman
What International Airline Would Fit Best With Fll posted Tue Oct 17 2006 23:26:33 by Fll2993
Time For A Who Gets What If DL...... posted Wed Mar 15 2006 23:33:58 by Jdwfloyd
Would You Fly Alitalia To The Olympics? posted Mon Jan 23 2006 16:40:06 by Bicoastal
Are CX And SQ The Worlds Best Airlines? posted Wed May 25 2005 04:23:04 by Monteycarlos
Why Introduce The C172 And Not The C177? posted Fri Mar 25 2005 21:05:38 by Boeing Nut