DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7038 posts, RR: 52 Posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6786 times:
Ok, if you hate hypothetical threads, hit the back button. For those of you "what if" kind of people, what do you think the airline industry would be like if those near merges in the past actually happened? We all know about UA+US, but what if NW+Northeast Airlines merged? They came close if I recall. And what if Braniff (I think it was them) acquired Pan Am's Atlantic routes instead of Delta? Do you think some of the big players today would be as big, and do you think some airlines non existent today would still be around? Remember, this is supposed to be a fun thread, let's keep our "A.net professionalism."
Back around 2000 or so, I believe that UA and US were considering a merger or something close to that effect, and if I remember correctly, AA and NW were in talks to merge or partner intensively as a response. Ultimately, those talks did not work out, and AA bought TWA.
I'm a little hazy on the details, and possibly even the time period, but yes, AA and NW did talk about a possible merger. Now, I don't know how intensive the talks became, but I remember that rumors swirled around on A.net.
Hope this helps.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
That is one that intrigues me as well, particularly in the upper midwest. It seems unreasonable that the combined airline would maintain ORD, DTW, and MSP. I always wondered if AA would've reduced DTW and moved most of the international flight to ORD in an attempt to build a powerhouse hub against UA, or if AA would've reduced ORD in favor of building an even stronger fortress hub up the road at DTW rather than doing direct battle with UA (and ATA/WN) in Chicago. If they chose ORD over DTW, that would also bring MSP into question. I'm guessing MEM would have become something between what it is today and what STL is today.
One thing I'm certain of is that AA would have loved NW's Pacific access.
NorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2927 posts, RR: 38
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6640 times:
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Ok well here's the ultimate "what if"
What if Pan Am hadn't bought National (Mk1 all original sun king)?
If PA hadn't chased Lorenzo for National, Lorenzo would not of been able to aquire Eastern
Now Eastern would of been a much better fit for Pan Am, better matched fleet, hubs, and a bigger presence in the Domestic market.
Lorenzo would of eventually merged National into Continental most likely, and probably not bought People Express... maybe even not starting New York Air but that was already being planned... Texas Air would of been left with one airline with problems ( for example without buying EA CO never would of gotten a real CRS like SystemOne) and probably an uphill battle to get any real market share and no real working captial (Lorenzo's capital to buy Eastern came from his inflated price shares in the National deal)
Pan Am + Eastern would of had a decent fleet (Dc-9, 732, 721, 722, 752, 741, 742, AB3, L10, L15 and 310s on order), a strong east coast presence with hubs at MIA, ATL, and LGA/JFK, and a good backbone to south america and europe.
Option B) EA+TWA... they actually tried this one, never worked out though... again good match, TWA's east-west network and Europe plus Easterns North-South and Latin America services.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6592 times:
Let's not forget "Doug Parker's New Delta" hostile takeover attempt and what might have been if DL+US had happened instead of DL+NW. Here's my 2 cents:
First, the Widget logo would be killed in favor of some design consultant's uninspired dream, and Doug's DL leaves SkyTeam for Star. Then, the ATL and SLC hubs would have been gutted a la PIT in favor of a massive buildup at CLT and PHX. Next, the oil spike happens, and DL's international routes are shrunk, the $2 can of Coke comes along (and stays unlike what happened recently, because Doug's DL has a lot of market power), and new fees are added like crazy (BOB snacks replacing meals on trans-Pacific/Altantic, etc.). Finally, Doug's DL buys yet another airline (probably United) to "increase market penetration".
And, of course, all this is going on while the US West/US East/Legacy DL pilots would still be on separate contracts/seniority lists due to infighting.
But, one thing would be similar to the eventual DL+NW: a very diverse fleet!
I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
Xaphan From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6483 times:
Back in the early 1960s, AA and EA tried to merge. That would have been a massive airline!
About the same time, there were rumours that DL and CO might merge. Their routes would have meshed together well back then. Supposedly the reason why the idea never got floated was that Bob Six and C E Woolman wouldn't give up control.
CV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1095 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6340 times:
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8): Let's not forget "Doug Parker's New Delta" hostile takeover attempt and what might have been if DL+US had happened instead of DL+NW. Here's my 2 cents:
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8): First, the Widget logo would be killed in favor of some design consultant's uninspired dream, and Doug's DL leaves SkyTeam for Star. Then, the ATL and SLC hubs would have been gutted a la PIT in favor of a massive buildup at CLT
ATL is what Parker wanted, and the City of CLT was against this one from the get go.
Tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6442 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6281 times:
DL and CO considered merging several times in the late 1990s, I'm thinking 1998.
UA and US in 2000 was a BIG deal and was shot down by the courts. The combined UA/US had a proposed route map which indicated their massive network including PHL/BOS-NRT. Obviously this never happened but would have been very interesting if it did.
Also DCair was to be operated in a conjoined agreement with UA/US and AA for slots involving the DCA. It was decided that if DCair was to become a reality, it would be operated with F100s.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6255 times:
Quoting Blink182 (Reply 4): Back around 2000 or so, I believe that UA and US were considering a merger or something close to that effect, and if I remember correctly, AA and NW were in talks to merge or partner intensively as a response. Ultimately, those talks did not work out, and AA bought TWA.
The result of that turned out that the mergers mentioned was declared deeply anti-competitive by the DOT/DOJ and that was the end of it.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
MtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2368 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6164 times:
I remember the incessant WA/CO merger discussions that always seemed to be 'almost imminent' that never came to pass. That would have been an interesting one at the time. I suppose if that had happened, the WA hub at SLC would not have come about as it did, assuming CO kept big hub in DEN. They probably would have had a larger presence in LAX. But as time wore on, maybe not much to date.
1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6147 times:
There was talk on here sometime ago about Pan Am and Northwest merging in the late 80s. Don't know how it would have worked domestically but it would have made a very strong international airline, big networks in Europe, South America and Asia and a very modern fleet for the time (both airlines had big A320 fleets on order, plus NW had the A330, A340 and 747-400 on order around 1988)
In the UK there's been talk of VS and BD merging since about 2003, possibly even earlier, a move which could make sense but I don't think either company has the money to do it properly. Back in 1987 there were several merger proposals for BCal. SAS suggested merging BCal and Dan Air to make their Gatwick operations stronger whilst Air Europe was also trying to buy them. Could have looked very interesting if BA hadn't been so mean!
Did they ever try to merge? I've only kept track of aviation since like 2005 so I wouldn't know...
I remember this one, no formal merger was ever announced but there were news stories of them being in talks. This happened shortly after UA/US announced their plans. AA/NW would have been interesting to say the least. ORD would have been the big factor in determining what happened to MSP and DTW. ORD has been one of their mainstay hubs for a long time but DTW and MSP were attractive since they were 'fortress' hubs with no competition unlike ORD. I think they probably would have made MSP strictly domestic and made DTW and ORD into international hubs. MEM probably would have eneded up like STL/BNA, with the routes shifted to DFW.
CO & DL were also rumored to be merging around this time as well (The UA/US announcement triggered the remaining legacies into the talks with one another). I remember the talks if that one had gone thru which midwest hub would have stayed, CLE beacause of good O & D numbers or CVG with ample room for expansion?
I think back around these days AirTran was rumored to be looking into TWA, that would have been interesting....
TWA and HP were also forming an alliance and were rumored to have been merging as well.
I think at one point back in the 90s US might have thought about doing something with TWA. Personally I think that would have been a good combo, and we probably would have seen an STL hub that was still big. I don't thing they ever talked but I think CO & TWA would have made a good combo too, STL could have gave them a bigger prescense in the midwest more than CLE will ever do.
Of course when NWA enetered into their code share with CO back in '98 alot of people assumed that would have ended up in a merger too. That would have been a pretty good route map (except for still be weak out west).
According to an old newspaper clipping, the CAB's reason was both carriers were profitable and at least one in a merger 'should be losing money'.
Exit the merger plans.
The other early 60's merger that was kicked around was a CO-National. It didnt go far either.
The 60's merger buzz was due to Capital and United's marriage June 30 of 1961.
That made UA the largest carrier in the USA in routes, fleet and pax carried.
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.