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What Is The Actual Airline?  
User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6340 times:

Hi,
I was wondering if you fly e.g Delta Connection, operated by SkyWest Airlines, flown on Delta Air Lines flight number, which airline would you consider you have flown:
-Delta Connection
-SkyWest Airlines
-Delta Air Lines

There are numerous other examples of this, and I don't know which airline should I list in my logbook (btw, I am not flying DL). Would you use regional airline, parent airline or the airlines that the flight is operated by?
Your views are welcomed.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19258 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6322 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
SkyWest Airlines

I would say I had flown SkyWest, for it's the actual operating airline.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6315 times:
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Quoting AlexEU (Thread starter):
There are numerous other examples of this, and I don't know which airline should I list in my logbook

I always put in the actual operating airline.



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User currently offlineYflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

I typically put the regional brand with the operating carrier in parenthesis, ie. "Delta Connection (Skywest)."

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26145 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6274 times:

I look at it as being Delta.

After all your business relationship is with Delta. You purchased a ticket for a Delta flight, which just happens to be contracted out to a 3rd party. Delta is ultimately responsible to you for the flight regardless if it was a mainline or express partner.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

After it's operated by OO, I'd say OO. It's just my point of view.


DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

I would put it down as SkyWest Airlines (Operating as Delta Connection).

I know I have done this similarly when I flew on Ryan International back when they were doing some flights for AirTran. I put it down as Ryan International (Operating for AirTran).

I've listed my one and so far only Delta Connection flight as Comair, no mention of Delta Connection because Comair only flies as Delta Connection. In the case of SkyWest, they do operate as United Express and as Midwest Connect, so you definitely have to include under what banner they were operating under.

Listing it as Delta Connection (Operated by SkyWest) is another option.

Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 5):
After it's operated by OO, I'd say OO. It's just my point of view.

Exactly. While the flight will operate under a DL flight number, it's not a DL operated flight. It's basically a codeshare flight, as the flight actually operates under an OO flight number but marketed under a DL flight number.


User currently offlineStarAlliance38 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6240 times:

I always put the "umbrella" airline, so I'd put DL. It makes it easier for me  Smile


Roar, lion, roar
User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6235 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
After all your business relationship is with Delta. You purchased a ticket for a Delta flight, which just happens to be contracted out to a 3rd party. Delta is ultimately responsible to you for the flight regardless if it was a mainline or express partner.

But if you purchase a holiday ticket in travel agency they will be responsible for your tickets etc. and you can't say that you have flown with a travel agency...

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):

Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 5):
After it's operated by OO, I'd say OO. It's just my point of view.

Exactly. While the flight will operate under a DL flight number, it's not a DL operated flight. It's basically a codeshare flight, as the flight actually operates under an OO flight number but marketed under a DL flight number.

Are f/a's and pilots working for DL or OO in this example? If they are working for OO that would mean that they could fly under Delta Connection, United Express and Midwest Connect as you said.
After all Delta Connection is not an airline officially. Nor do they have callsign, IATA code, ICAO code etc.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):
In the case of SkyWest, they do operate as United Express and as Midwest Connect, so you definitely have to include under what banner they were operating under.

That's the problem. Not many people would realize that this is one airline:

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I am looking forward to more replies,
Alex


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6118 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6229 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
You purchased a ticket for a Delta flight, which just happens to be contracted out to a 3rd party.

Be careful how you say that, because on both Delta Connection, and United Express, there are many flights to which both UA and DL do not contract out; rather, the only thing the mainline provides, is the CRS, and their name, for a fee.



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6225 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
I look at it as being Delta.

After all your business relationship is with Delta. You purchased a ticket for a Delta flight, which just happens to be contracted out to a 3rd party. Delta is ultimately responsible to you for the flight regardless if it was a mainline or express partner.

That doesn't seem logical to me. If you purchased a DL ticket on a flight operated by AF (code-shared) you wouldn't say it was a DL flight simply because you had a DL ticket/boarding pass. Legally, I thought the actual operating carrier was responsible for the passenger, not DL, which is why aircraft operated by 3rd parties have to be identified with the name of the operating carrier.

If someone launches a lawsuit over the Continental Express Dash 8-400 crash at BUF a few months ago, wouldn't they sue Colgan Airways, the operating carrier, not Continental Airlines? CO just contracted for the service but I can't see how they would have any legal responsibility.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26145 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6223 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 8):
But if you purchase a holiday ticket in travel agency they will be responsible for your tickets etc. and you can't say that you have flown with a travel agency...

Travel agency puts you on a Delta flight. Personally I don't care if its Delta flight number 1, or number 8000. I have a ticket for a Delta flight which happens to have been contracted out.
If something goes wrong, with a delay, loss baggage etc, it would also be Delta who would be ultimtaely accountable to you.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
there are many flights to which both UA and DL do not contract out; rather, the only thing the mainline provides, is the CRS, and their name, for a fee

And you know very well, one cannot go out and buy a "Skywest" ticket as much as you might want to. It will either be under the Delta and United banner. You can look at the Skywest website, call their HQ etc all you want but they will not sell you a ticket.


The point here - and has been shown in consumer surveys is the person buys a ticket on airline A (mainline) they have very little awareness or care if its operated by airline B (express partner). The consumers relationship is with airline A whom they contract with for the transportation.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6220 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The point here - and has been shown in consumer surveys is the person buys a ticket on airline A (mainline) they have very little awareness or care if its operated by airline B (express partner). The consumers relationship is with airline A whom they contract with for the transportation.

Sure, but it's not the case here. Obviously the OP knows all about this practice to the point he keeps a logbook, so it verifiably IS clear to him that OO is operating the aircraft.

I don't care what you do with your logbook, as it only matters to you, but if I were keeping a record, I would record whatever entity actually operated the flight, in this case OO. Delta pilots don't operate OO aircraft, OO pilots do. This one is a freebie, though, because it all comes down to what you want in your personal logbook.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6118 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6209 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
And you know very well, one cannot go out and buy a "Skywest" ticket as much as you might want to. It will either be under the Delta and United banner. You can look at the Skywest website, call their HQ etc all you want but they will not sell you a ticket.

You can't buy a ticket directly, and haven't been able to since 1985. However, if you even bothered to read what I said, it IS the regional's flight, but they pay for the use of the major's CRS---and that's it. Case in point, all of the DL Brasilia flying is at risk for OO. There is not a single brasilia flying DL numbered flights that is in DL colors, and as such, the passengers know who it is. Aside from that, SkyWest is a VERY prominant player in Utah, and US southwest aviation. There are few people at the cities they fly to, both past and present, in Utah, south Idaho, northern Arizona, and parts of Southern California, who don't know who they are. It's like saying that Horizon is unknown in the northwest.

[Edited 2009-07-13 17:26:27]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

What about a subsidiary of a subsidiary such as Executive Airlines being a feeder for Eagle Airlines which in turn is a feeder for American Airlines?

User currently offlineVhqpa From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 1493 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6143 times:

generally written down I would put "Marketing Airline/Operating Airline" so if the case of the OP I would write Delta Connection/Skywest. If I was saying it verbally to someone who was familiar with the industry I would say "I flew Skywest" however If I was talking to someone who wasn't familiar with the industry I would say "I flew Delta Connection".

Here in Australia If I was on a Sunstate flight I would be welcomed aboard "Qantaslink Flight Twenty-Three Hundred" even though the ICAO flight number would be "SSQ300D" and Callsign would be "QLink 300 Delta". Although even though they announce it as a Qantaslink flight and the Dash 8 would say "Qantaslink" the majority of passengers would still say they were just flying "Qantas"




Vhq.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6000 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 14):
What about a subsidiary of a subsidiary such as Executive Airlines being a feeder for Eagle Airlines which in turn is a feeder for American Airlines?

American Eagle (Executive Airlines).


Quoting AlexEU (Reply 8):
Are f/a's and pilots working for DL or OO in this example? If they are working for OO that would mean that they could fly under Delta Connection, United Express and Midwest Connect as you said.
After all Delta Connection is not an airline officially. Nor do they have callsign, IATA code, ICAO code etc.

The pilots and F/As are OO employees. I remember that back when Air Wisconsin was flying as AirTran JetConnect, and had a crew base @ ATL, it was not uncommon for crews to work JetConnect flights and United Express flights. They would have the separate uniform pieces they would switch out depending on which airline they were flying for. I believe this is also the case with OO crews depending on the base they fly out of. In the case of the Midwest Connect operation, I would guess that those crews are typically assigned to that operation, but in a pinch, could be called in to cover a Delta Connection or United Express flight.


User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5952 times:

What if an aircraft is leased? E.g you book a flight on British Airways, but they had leased the aircraft, crew, in-flight entertainment and everything from Lufthansa. How would you classify it?

User currently offlineHywel From Malaysia, joined Apr 2008, 813 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5947 times:

I would say I flew with Lufthansa, but the flight was operated by Lufthansa Cityline for Lufthansa Regional.

User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5946 times:

This is much more difficult to classify, but I would say that I've flown British Airways.
Why? Because they rented plane, which means that it is owned for a time by them (no matter if still has LH colors).
However for me personally is important tail number. This is in which I care to know more after each flight.



DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlineAlexEU From Nauru, joined Oct 2007, 1824 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5941 times:



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 19):
This is in which I care to know more after each flight.

Same with me. But sometimes it is very hard to find out registration. Especially if your enter the plain by airbridge and you cant see the tail number or the number written on nose gear. I've never asked f-a´s for regs, as I dont know how would they react.


User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5927 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 20):
I've never asked f-a´s for regs, as I dont know how would they react.

I wonder if they are aware about tail numbers!



DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5905 times:



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 17):
What if an aircraft is leased? E.g you book a flight on British Airways, but they had leased the aircraft, crew, in-flight entertainment and everything from Lufthansa. How would you classify it?

Lufthansa (Operating for British Airways)
British Airways (Operated by Lufthansa)

It's very similar to the example I used earlier involving AirTran and Ryan International.


Quoting Srbmod (Reply 6):
I know I have done this similarly when I flew on Ryan International back when they were doing some flights for AirTran. I put it down as Ryan International (Operating for AirTran).



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 8):
That's the problem. Not many people would realize that this is one airline:

In each case SkyWest's name is on each of those a/c, so that when passengers board said a/c, whether it is in Delta Connection colors, Midwest Connect colors, or United Express colors, their name is also on the outside of the a/c within in view of the passengers.


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