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Cancellation Of Ticket After A No-Show  
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7773 times:

Hello all aviation geeks  Smile

I came to airliners.net because my brother was once a regular participant, and I couldnt think of a better place for some information.

This is a simplified version of events:
I purchased a ticket with AR for SYD-EZE-BOG and return through Flight Centre -a travel agent- in Australia. I completed the outward legs successfully.

Because I was unable to change the dates of the return BOG-EZE flight in September, I didn't check-in for the flight, expecting that I could use the EZE-SYD leg in December. I was immediately e-mailed by my travel agent saying that as I was a no-show on the BOG-EZE flight, my ticket was cancelled.

I immediately called AR for them to reinstate me, but as the flight was almost full, they said the only way for me to get back on the flight would be to upgrade to the highest possible fare class at a considerable cost.

I suppose that none of the actions of AR surprise you. I have even been told that AR agreeing to reinstate me if I upgrade fare class is more than they usually do.

Cancelling after a no-show seems to be normal industry practice, and I have been explained many times the logic of the practice.

I have looked carefully through my fare rules and conditions and cannot find anything in my contract with AR and the travel agent (Flight Centre) that stipulates that they are allowed to cancel the rest of the ticket, in the event of a no show.

What I am wondering, is what gives AR the permission to do this? Are there any civil aviation regulations that I haven't thought of? Does anyone know of any precedents where this action has been contested?

Thanks very much for your help in advance.
Please keep on topic (comments such as "you should have called them beforehand", aren't particularly helpful).

Seb


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7745 times:

This is industry standard for cheap tickets.

There probably is some value left on the ticket. You will essentially now be buying a new ticket and applying the remaining value of the old ticket toward the new one (less the cancellation penalty). You will need to search dates for cheap fare availability. I hope you do not plan on travelling in the very near future, because there is little possibility of a cheap fare to Australia on short notice.

Sorry, but you don't have a legal leg to stand on.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7745 times:

Many carriers started this a few years back.
If you dont show up and do not call or via the net, cancel, you lose your $$$ AND your res.
Its like not going to the concert or big game...you dont show? Its your problem.
At least with the airlines, you have the right to cancel before departure time to save value of the flight.

In the good ole days, it didn't matter if you no-showed or not. Your ticket was still worth something..........................not anymore.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

An instance I know of occured here in Dallas.

While promoting their increased service from Austin via DFW, it was much cheaper to purchase a ticket AUS-DFW-LAX or AUS-DFW-ORD or pretty much anywhere.

People were buying those tickets. No showing in AUS and trying to board the flight at DFW.

The airline view became - they sold a ticket AUS-LAX, not DFW-LAX.

So in your case - it would be a ticket BOG-SYD, not a ticket BOG-EZE and a separate ticket EZE-SYD.

Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
is what gives AR the permission to do this?

Somewhere in the fine print on the airline Terms and Conditions is spells out that failure to show for the first leg makes the entire ticket null and void. The basic point is you have entered into a contract with AR for a service. In return for you fare - AR has agreed to certain terms - unfortunately you have also agreed to those terms.

It is not only the airlines, practically every company we deal with today has some very similar type of legal fine print. Credit card companies and airlines are the ones which have the greatest ability to confuse you and demand unsavory conditions in return for a service you must have in today's world.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7639 times:

Just one extra thing to add. This condition is attached to all Flight Centre quotations.

*If you do not fly and do not notify the airline at least 24 hours prior
to the flight's scheduled departure time, you may forfeit the fare paid.

I suppose you *could* interpret this is two ways.

1 - that the fare forfeited is the fare paid for the flight not taken
2 - that the fare forfeited is the fare paid for the flight not taken and all subsequent flights

In aviation speak, the second interpretation could seem the most logical, as my 4 flights were purchased in combination under one fare.

But in defense in interpretation 1:
a - you could assume that as they are in the same sentence, that "the fare" would refer to "the flight"
b - cancelling the whole fare seems unusually oppresive, and if that was the meaning intended, you would expect the condition to be made clearer
c - in any case, it's not 100% clear, so you would assume the less restrictive interpretation.

Any other comments about my interpretations?

Seb



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7621 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
Any other comments about my interpretations?

At my airlines where I worked for all segments would be cancelled when you are a no-show. Just call before and pay a penalty to move your flight to a future date. It's logic, airlines dont't want to fly with empty seats.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3146 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7606 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
I suppose that none of the actions of AR surprise you

Seb,

It's not AR's fault on this one. It's industry standard that if you don't show on one of the legs, your whole itinerary will be cancelled.

In fact, this was discussed, when one of the A.net users posted a problem, I think with CO or US, where the passengers had to do CMH-ICT-SLC (I'm probably really far off) or something like that, but the passengers decided to not show on the CMH-ICT and board directly on ICT. When they got to ICT, their PNR was already cancelled.

Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
I have even been told that AR agreeing to reinstate me if I upgrade fare class is more than they usually do.

Well, getting them to rebuild your PNR by paying the fare difference (plus the change fee) is something all airlines will do, AR does it - what it doesn't do, is respond to customer complaints, but that's another issue  Silly

Quoting EddieDude (Thread starter):
Please keep on topic (comments such as "you should have called them beforehand", aren't particularly helpful).

You should've called them beforehand. Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin

Saludos,
Gastón



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3146 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7604 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
*If you do not fly and do not notify the airline at least 24 hours prior
to the flight's scheduled departure time, you may forfeit the fare paid.

Actually that means that you could lose your seat, as there may not be any seats available on that fare class.

Saludos,



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7596 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 3):
Somewhere in the fine print on the airline Terms and Conditions is spells out that failure to show for the first leg makes the entire ticket null and void.

I have combed all the terms and conditions of the ticket very carefully, and there is nothing that says this.

I have also asked AR repeatedly to show me where it gives them permission in the ticket conditions and they've been unable to do so.

Interestingly, AR even put it in writing. This is what a AR wrote to me in an email:

-start of email-
About the "No show" procedure. There is no written info about the automatic cancellation of the following flight. The logic is if you do not take the first flight you won't make it for the second flight. The passenger responsibility is to reconfirm the flight 72hs before departure - to avoid no show-.

kind regards,

-end of email-

Thanks for the replies everyone. Please keep replies to only discussing the legal or contractual justifications of AR cancelling my following flights.

Seb



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7588 times:

I don't understand your question.

You have been told by AR what their interpretation is.

Others on this site have all given you the same interpretation of the rules as AR and how it is applied by most airlines world-wide.

If you really feel that your interpretation of the rules (rather than AR's) is what should be controlling in a court of law, then your available option would be to hire legal counsul in either BOG, EZE, or Australia (assuming AR has offices there) and take AR to court. You won't get anywhere trying to argue law with an AR customer service representative, or the CSR's supervisor.


User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3146 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 8):
-start of email-
About the "No show" procedure. There is no written info about the automatic cancellation of the following flight. The logic is if you do not take the first flight you won't make it for the second flight. The passenger responsibility is to reconfirm the flight 72hs before departure - to avoid no show-.

kind regards,
-end of email-

You got AR to respond an email to you? That's a first...

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):
hire legal counsul in either BOG, EZE, or Australia (assuming AR has offices there) and take AR to court. You won't get anywhere trying to argue law with an AR customer service representative, or the CSR's supervisor.

+1.   

[Edited 2009-12-06 18:43:49]


There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7528 times:

I was able to find this on their site fairly quickly:

Quote:

ON DEPARTURE
Passengers are kindly requested to report on time at the Airport of departure. Failure to report on time may imply charges, including the total loss of the amount paid for the ticket. If you do not have reservations for continuing or return flight please contact our nearest reservation office.

http://www.aerolineas.com.ar/arg/mai...idSitio=US&idPagina=1&idIdioma=en#


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

DLPMMM, that's exactly the route I'm thinking. I'll deal with that when I get back to Australia. They are a registered foreign entity.

I was just wondering if there were any other conditions that I was bound to, other than those included in my ticket conditions that I could examine. AR and Flight Centre have been unable to provide me with any others.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7513 times:



Quoting N801NW (Reply 11):
I was able to find this on their site fairly quickly:

Quote:

ON DEPARTURE
Passengers are kindly requested to report on time at the Airport of departure. Failure to report on time may imply charges, including the total loss of the amount paid for the ticket. If you do not have reservations for continuing or return flight please contact our nearest reservation office.

http://www.aerolineas.com.ar/arg/mai...a=en#

You beat me to it, just found it as well. Every airline has that policy and it's very logic.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineToltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

It's not just a ticket. It's also a contract.

You entered into a contract with AR. In exchange for money, they agreed to transport you SYD-BOG-SYD. In exchange for the price quoted, you agreed to fly SYD-BOG-SYD. The connecting point is not relevant. You breached the contract when you no showed the BOG-EZE portion of the contract. AR doesn't have the right to not transport you on the EZE-BOG portion in the event of a cancellation, etc. If they can't, they are obligated to get you there, even if it means paying another carrier to get you there. You were obligated to fly on the flights you purchased, or cancel/rebook within the policy.


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7380 times:

Sorry, but I do not believe you have a case here. When you no-showed you broke your part of the agreement. The airlines have rules of carriage and they are much longer than the average telephone book. The basics are printed on the ticket for you to read, but there is simply not enough room to put everything on the ticket, especially since there are so many different fares with different rules.

In some cases where they will try to work with you, they may figure the cheapest oneway fare available, deduct that from your fare paid and if anything is left over, it is usually eaten up by a change fee and you are stuck still buying a oneway ticket. Unfortunately too many times in the past when I was trying to help someone there was not any value left in the ticket the passenger is holding to apply to another fare. This was before the airlines started with all of these change fees.

MD


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1846 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7337 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

There was a case here in which the person had purchased a train ticket + flight ticket on KL as one itinerary. However he chose not to use the train and drove to AMS instead. KL canceled his ticket because he was a no-show for the train.


Fly DC-Jets!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7223 times:



Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 16):
There was a case here in which the person had purchased a train ticket + flight ticket on KL as one itinerary. However he chose not to use the train and drove to AMS instead. KL canceled his ticket because he was a no-show for the train.

How would KL have known that he drove rather than taking the train to AMS? You don't check-in for trains in the Netherlands (or almost anywhere else). You just board the train and you may or may not see a ticket inspector during the trip (depending how long the trip is). Even if they do check to ensure you have a ticket, there's no link between that manual process ahd KL computers. I can't see how KL would have any way of knowing whether you used the train or not.


User currently offlineAirbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7189 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
How would KL have known that he drove rather than taking the train to AMS?

This was a different case.
The ticket was issued and originating from Belgium. I think that ticket was issued from Antwerp station by train to AMS, plane to destination X.

As far as I know, you can check-in at an AF/KL counter at Belgium main stations. This was not done, so the reservation was cancelled.

Why? Because KLM's sales offer cheaper fares on the Belgium market, and many Dutch travellers try to get hands on these cheaper fares, but don't take the first part of the journey.
KLM then decided to cancel the whole booking.



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7151 times:



Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
It's logic, airlines dont't want to fly with empty seats.

That is not logical at all, since he has paid for his seat, and didn't ask for a refund. In fact, it would be better for the airline, since they have

* less weight
* less catering
* a space for some last minute/wait listed passenger

now, if he wants the $$ back, then you are right...

Having said that, I know that his "problem" is common practice, but I find that still a bit mean, although I understand the reasons (see the Austin-DFW-LAX example above)...

Cheers
micha


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7076 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 4):
- you could assume that as they are in the same sentence, that "the fare" would refer to "the flight"

No, there's quite a difference between a "fare" and a "flight". A publshed fare/routing between two cities may include multiple segments/flights which may be less expensive than the flights independently.

That is to say theat there may be a published fare on airline X for, say, SAN-JFK thats routing includes flights between SAN-DFW and DFW-JFK. Airline X may charge a lesser fare for that routing than it does for a published fare between DFW and JFK.

Or in other words, it's not how you get there, it's where you start and where you finish that the fare generally covers (there are odd rules regarding fare breaks, conjunction fares, stopovers, etc. that I don't really understand but it doesn't sound like those apply in your case anyway)

Lincoln



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