Sponsor Message:
Travel Polls & Prefs Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
"Where" Am I Before Entrance/after Exit Immigratio  
User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Immigration at airports officially registers your entrance into a country and your eligibility to enter, as well as if you have any arrest warrants issued I believe. When you leave the country you pass through exit immigration (except in the US I'm not sure if any other country does not have exit immigration)

So in the time before you enter the country officially/legally after getting off your flight or during the time your waiting for your flight to leave, are you under any special rules or jurisdiction? If you commit a crime let it be from stealing a pen from the souvenir shop to murder or if you are someone seeking asylum does anything change whatsoever?

2 things that come to mind are the AA flight that landed in Caracas with the FA that said welcome to Caracas where the local Chavez time is... I believe they were processed by a special police group since they never actually entered the country

The other was in a trip report to Japan where a fellow anetter (though I cant remember who) forgot his binoculars on the observation deck "in Japan" and had to deal with some paper work to retrieve them since he had officially left the country.

In the US he could have gone to retrieve them without a hitch of course which brings up the question, why don't we have Exit Immigration in the US?

Thank-you and to everyone on A.net
A very Happy New Year!

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinenoelg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

In the UK there is no exit immigration, but when you arrive in the country there is a line that says clearly "UK Border", as you go through immigration.

I believe officially you are in international territory, you are in the territory of the registry of the aircraft you fly on until you disembark, but then again if you committed a crime before crossing the border, I'm sure you would be dealt with by the country you are physically in.

It's similar when you travel onto foreign military bases, when you go onto RAF Lakenheath or Mildenhall, you enter US territory, and are bound by their rules (US Military police etc). But again I'm sure if you committed a serious crime you would be handed over to the UK authorities.


User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2767 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

Canada doesn't have any "exit" controls either. When I cross the border into the USA, the first stop I make is after actually crossing the bridge (over the Niagara river) and presenting myself for admission at the US CBP post. However, right in the middle of the bridge is a white line (with both Nation's flags being flown) and that is the actual physical border.

When flying out of Canada, if it's to the USA then I pre-clear through US Customs and Immigration right here in Toronto airport and while still physically located within Canada, effectively I've crossed into the USA for clearance purposes.
Flying to other International destinations there is no pre-clearance and I just pass through Canadian airport secutiry and walk down to my flight.


User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting noelg (Reply 1):
line that says clearly "UK Border

Interesting if I see it whenever I take my trip to the UK I'll ask the officer. It seems like an interesting experience nonetheless, I am very interested in the whole subject of sovereignty and crossing immigration etc including the sovereignty of microstates. My friend Dosent consider Monaco and the Vatican as sovereign states simply because they are to small.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3025 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting noelg (Reply 1):
there is a line that says clearly "UK Border", as you go through immigration.

As soon as you are within the territory of a country, the laws of said country apply to you (except in specific cases, such as below and embassies and consulates) whether or not you have formally been accepted by their immigration authorities. Citizens are prosecuted equally whichever side of the immigration desk their crimes have been committed. In the case of foreigners, the country has, in theory, the option of refusing you entry and deporting you back to your point of origin, or admitting you into the country and prosecuting you.

Quoting noelg (Reply 1):
But again I'm sure if you committed a serious crime you would be handed over to the UK authorities.

Not necessarily. The US has agreements with most (all) countries hosting US bases that crimes committed by military personnel stationed on base will be dealt with according to and by the US justice system. It is hotly controversial in Japan where US soldiers have committed crimes against Japanese citizens and have received sentences that the Japanese population thought wholly insufficient.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2996 times:

Quoting noelg (Reply 1):
you are in the territory of the registry of the aircraft you fly on until you disembark,

Hmmmm...when I flew SFO-MEX-ZIH aboard MX, the aircraft (leased, obviously) was F-OHMG.

But, I do not think that I was considered to be legally in France!!

If so, then they served the wrong meal.



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Thread starter):
So in the time before you enter the country officially/legally after getting off your flight or during the time your waiting for your flight to leave, are you under any special rules or jurisdiction? If you commit a crime let it be from stealing a pen from the souvenir shop to murder or if you are someone seeking asylum does anything change whatsoever?

Once you are off the aircraft and inside the terminal building, but still before successfully completed immigration, it already are the authorities of the hosting country one will have to deal with.
Movie "Terminal" starring Tom Hanks comes to mind.

It therefore does happen, that a passport control is conducted right at the aircraft door resp. the end of the jetway during disembarkation, in order to filter pax who have boarded the aircraft with papers but then flushed them down the a/c's toilet in order to seek asylum in the receiving country. Has happened to me on more than one occasion arriving at FRA from SE-Asia. With this measure, those pax would be denied access to the terminal building and it then would be the task of the transporting airline to carry them back to the point of embarkation.

-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting noelg (Reply 1):
you are in the territory of the registry of the aircraft you fly on until you disembark,

Not correct. Many aircraft are registered in countries other than where the airline is based due to leasing or taxation conditions. For example, many Aeroflot aircraft are registered in Bermuda and many Alitalia aircraft are registered in Ireland.That certainly doesn't mean that you are in Bermuda or Irish territory when flying on those SU or AZ aircraft.


User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3240 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

It's an interesting topic and a bit of a grey area. If one disembarks from a plane at an international airport and is awaiting immigration clearance, one is technically in international space for all practical intents and purposes. Likewise, when one passes passport exit controls at places that have them (eg Schengen) then one is in international space again. For legal/criminal matters it's a bit different as the country concerned would still have ultimate jurisdiction. For this reason, among others, many places have special police units to serve airports.

Quoting HT (Reply 6):
It therefore does happen, that a passport control is conducted right at the aircraft door resp. the end of the jetway during disembarkation, in order to filter pax who have boarded the aircraft with papers but then flushed them down the a/c's toilet in order to seek asylum in the receiving country.
Quoting HT (Reply 6):
With this measure, those pax would be denied access to the terminal building and it then would be the task of the transporting airline to carry them back to the point of embarkation.

-HT

It is not always that simple but having immigration at the gate does prevent individuals destroying their documents in the airport itself. The trouble is, people who present without passports form a different kettle of fish from those who, say, have passports but have no valid visa for entry. If a person tries to enter a nation without the correct visa the person will be denied entry in most instances and the airline would have to return him to the point of origin at their expense and often face a further fine. The thing here is that if the individual has a passport, his nationality can be confirmed and he can be returned to his home country or the country where he originated his journey, providing he has necessary credentials to enter there. In most cases of refused entry (administrative removal), the passenger would be returned to point of origin of trip.

If a passenger has destroyed documents then he is much harder to remove as there would be no way of proving his nationality and this his admissiblilty to another nation. That would then be a task for the authorities of the country he has landed him and not the airline per se. There have been several television programmes in the UK which have explored such matters.

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Reply 3):
My friend Dosent consider Monaco and the Vatican as sovereign states simply because they are to small.

Despite their sizes, they certainly are sovereign states!

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting trintocan (Reply 8):
It is not always that simple but having immigration at the gate does prevent individuals destroying their documents in the airport itself. The trouble is, people who present without passports form a different kettle of fish from those who, say, have passports but have no valid visa for entry. If a person tries to enter a nation without the correct visa the person will be denied entry in most instances and the airline would have to return him to the point of origin at their expense and often face a further fine. The thing here is that if the individual has a passport, his nationality can be confirmed and he can be returned to his home country or the country where he originated his journey, providing he has necessary credentials to enter there. In most cases of refused entry (administrative removal), the passenger would be returned to point of origin of trip.

Very interesting thankyou for that!

Quoting trintocan (Reply 8):
Despite their sizes, they certainly are sovereign states!

Thats Exactly what I say! Were Passport Checks ever conducted before Schengen came into effect?


User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

One more thing, At US Preclearance facilities what happens to someone caught smuggling drugs or other items. Will they be arrested by US authorities or by Canadian/Bahamian/Bermudan/Irish Authorities? I am assuming that the US will have custody and that they have worked something out with the governments of those countries.

User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3240 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Reply 9):
Were Passport Checks ever conducted before Schengen came into effect?

I had not visited Europe pre-Schengen. What happened then, though was that border controls were carried out whenever crossing from one European country to another. With Schengen, there are no border controls along shared borders of participating nations (except in special circumstances like major political or sporting events) but controls exist at external borders, be they land, sea or air. Many Schengen area airports are thus laid out with separate areas for flights from within the Area and for flights from outside. For example, the UK is outside Schengen and so flights from there to a Schengen airport like AMS would have to park at non-Schengen area where immigration staff are positioned. A flight from Spain, however, to AMS would be handled as a domestic flight.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting trintocan (Reply 11):
I had not visited Europe pre-Schengen. What happened then, though was that border controls were carried out whenever crossing from one European country to another. With Schengen, there are no border controls along shared borders of participating nations (except in special circumstances like major political or sporting events) but controls exist at external borders, be they land, sea or air. Many Schengen area airports are thus laid out with separate areas for flights from within the Area and for flights from outside. For example, the UK is outside Schengen and so flights from there to a Schengen airport like AMS would have to park at non-Schengen area where immigration staff are positioned. A flight from Spain, however, to AMS would be handled as a domestic flight.

Thankyou for that info, I already knew more or less the basics of the Schengen agreement and had the pleasure of driving from the Pyrenees in Spain over to France and Back into Spain on the Northwest coast without and passport control. Needless to say it felt strange.

I was referring to Monaco having any passport checks, I can imagine the Vatican never had any passport checks.


User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3240 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Reply 12):
I was referring to Monaco having any passport checks, I can imagine the Vatican never had any passport checks.

Monaco has an immigration agreement with France who provides border checks on its behalf at its seaport and heliport. The border between it and France is open. It's the same for Vatican State, who has an agreement with Italy, the difference being that the Vatican has no port of entry as such.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting Airstud (Reply 5):
F-OHMG

F#$%^ Oh My God

Love it



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinea340crew From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

I am almost sure that US CBP does not have arrest authority in preclearance destinations. I was on a flight from NAS-MIA and at MIA police met the flight to arrest a man who had an outstanding warrant. Appartently when the man went throught the preclearance in NAS the CBP agent saw the warrant but did not have the power to arrest him since it was outside the USA, so they contacted MIA and had police waiting for the flight to arrive. They couldn't deny him entry since he was a US Citizen.
If someone is caught at a preclearance border crossing smuggling drugs i am not sure of the procedures.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting a340crew (Reply 15):
If someone is caught at a preclearance border crossing smuggling drugs i am not sure of the procedures.


Such a person can be arrested by the authorities in the country of departure, although sometime the police will let someone they know is carrying drugs to proceed in co-operation with the police in the destination country if it is believed that it will assist in capture of someone higher up the food chain.

An example is the so-called "Bali Nine" where Australian Federal Police and Customs knew someone was carrying drugs (tip off from parents) but did not intercept and warned the Indonesian authorities. The parents wanted to sue the AFP because they believe that their son should have been arrested here and received a shorter sentence rather than face the death penalty in Indonesia.


User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting trintocan (Reply 13):
Monaco has an immigration agreement with France who provides border checks on its behalf at its seaport and heliport.

Thanks!

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 14):
F#$%^ Oh My God

Love it

 
Quoting a340crew (Reply 15):
I was on a flight from NAS-MIA and at MIA police met the flight to arrest a man who had an outstanding warrant. Appartently when the man went throught the preclearance in NAS the CBP agent saw the warrant but did not have the power to arrest him since it was outside the USA, so they contacted MIA and had police waiting for the flight to arrive.

Wow a very interesting tactic, the man was flown right into the hands of police without having to go through the hassle of any extradition process, Maybe if he had been told of the warrant at NAS he would have tried to make a run for it.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):

An example is the so-called "Bali Nine" where Australian Federal Police and Customs knew someone was carrying drugs (tip off from parents) but did not intercept and warned the Indonesian authorities. The parents wanted to sue the AFP because they believe that their son should have been arrested here and received a shorter sentence rather than face the death penalty in Indonesia.

Definitely and interesting tactic used by the Australians but it seems that the Indonesians have given a lot of leeway in terms of the sentencing.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2606 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting trintocan (Reply 8):
Despite their sizes, they certainly are sovereign states!

On paper they are, but in fact, it is quite debatable. Micro-states often lack some of the features and functions of "normal" states. They do not have their own currency (1), postal system, defense force,... Sometimes they lack even anything beyond the most basic civil administration. It is hard to argue they are truly independent, in my opinion.

(1) No, it isn't the same thing as the euro. Euro-member countries have a say in how the euro is run as a currency through the European Central Bank (ECB).

Quoting a340crew (Reply 15):
I am almost sure that US CBP does not have arrest authority in preclearance destinations.

Technically I believe they have the right to arrest people but not detain them, and must instead hand them over to the local authorities as soon as possible. From this point on, getting them to the US (if necessary/desired) becomes just another extradition case. So in all but extreme cases, it may be preferable to let a known US fugitive through pre-clearance and onto a flight rather than go through the hassle of an extradition procedure.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Australian Federal Police and Customs knew someone was carrying drugs but did not intercept

Was it really to try and catch bigger fish, or because they knew punishment was more severe on the other end of the flight and figured it might be more of a deterrent?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
Was it really to try and catch bigger fish


More arrests were made in Indonesia as a result. I don't know whether the AFP would have thought that arrest in Indonesia would be a bigger deterrent as officially Australia is opposed to the death penalty. I think that they would want to establish the chain links and go for the source and distributors rather than just capture mules.

As an aside, Australia is in negotiation with Indonesia over a treaty that would allow persons convicted to serve out their terms in their own country. A sticking point is that in Indonesia a person may receive a twenty year sentence for something that might only attract a one year sentence here. If a person was repatriated to Australia, would they serve twenty years imposed by an Indonesian court or be released after just one year?


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2578 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
Micro-states often lack some of the features and functions of "normal" states. They do not have their own currency (1), postal system, defense force,... Sometimes they lack even anything beyond the most basic civil administration. It is hard to argue they are truly independent, in my opinion.

That may be, but sovereign states do not have to be truly independent. None of the above are criteria under which a territory becomes a sovereign state (they are set out in the Montevideo Convention). Both The Vatican and Monaco are recognised in international law as sovereign states.



Boeing 777 fanboy
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Where To Fly? posted Sat Dec 25 2010 22:09:56 by Superman24
Pan Am Vs TWA Service posted Fri Dec 17 2010 19:02:13 by Jackbr
After Christmas (Dec 27) Travel Demand? posted Wed Dec 8 2010 19:52:53 by phileet92
Ten Approaches To Fly Before You Die posted Mon Nov 22 2010 06:52:00 by aviationweek
Retagging Bags At DTW After Customs posted Thu Nov 11 2010 10:39:23 by sectflyer
Bizarre Occurence: Day Before Flight... posted Sun Nov 7 2010 20:22:19 by SHUPirate1
AM's Website Shoots Them In The Foot posted Sat Nov 6 2010 13:45:16 by Airstud
Where Has Airlinequality.com Gone? posted Tue Oct 19 2010 01:28:43 by ozvirginuk
About To Be DL Elite. Am I Put On The UG List? posted Thu Oct 7 2010 07:50:21 by sectflyer
Where To Stay In California posted Wed Sep 15 2010 01:03:14 by simonriat