TusAadvantage From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 160 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9035 times:
A friend of mine has a flight booked on AA from TUS - ORD - LHR - Oslo. However, I live in london and convinced her to just get off the plane at LHR and hangout with me for a few days before flying on ryanair or something to Oslo.
Apparently AA wants to charge her a bunch to drop the last leg of her flight. To avoid that I suggested she just get her bags checked to LHR and not show up for the last flight. How possible is this? Also, do you generally have to recheck your bag when coming from the US to LHR for a connection? If so, could she just leave as soon as she picks up her bag?
ADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1187 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9009 times:
1) It is against the "contract" your friend purchased from AA
2) If it is a round trip, typically it is policy to cancel the return trip (Oslo-TUS) due to this abuse.
3) It is possible AA could go after travel agency or such for the fare difference
4) If your friend is an EU citizen, EU laws may apply to prevent 2 & 3.
5) I don't think she can just check bags to LHR when the ticket shows Oslo. If there is a bag claim in LHR after customs, then it is easy. But wouldn't LHR be a sterile transfer point and the customs and such be done in Oslo?
someone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 2824 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8994 times:
As long as she gets her bag only checked to LHR, just do a no-show on the last leg and she be fine......unless this is her outbound flight and she has a return leg back to the US. Then her ticket will be cancelled
TusAadvantage From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 160 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8742 times:
Thanks for the input. It seems kind of dodgy on the part of the airlines that they can force you to fly all segments of your ticket. I know they want to stop people from taking advantage of the fact that flights to Europe via LHR are often cheaper than flights straight to LHR, but still, I think it's legally iffy that they can fine you for NOT taking a flight.
Have any court cases challenged this? I mean, to me it looks like airlines over-protecting their ability to price-discriminate.
Anyway, assuming this is a one way flight and she does break the rule, does anyone know if there is a bag recheck after customs at LHR to make this whole plan possible?
GizmoNC From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 281 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8677 times:
When you purchase a ticker from a carrier that is IATA member it is considered a contract. If you violate the contract there can be penalities. Years ago one could short check a bag with no problem but with the current security in place that is not allowed. You must check your back to your final destination. If your friend was to just not board that final flight in most cases the luggage would travel to the destination. However if it is not claimed it goes to the local baggage office and is held. Most airlines in the BSO office check the tag and then start checking to see what the passenger flew. Bags that are left over after a flight are put on a list for the local BSO office meaning they are bags on hand. Each airline is different but most use that list to locate lost bags. Airlines that scan knows where the bag was last scanned. So in this case your friend would have to go to the carriers BSO office that she flew and produce her luggage tag to pickup her bag. Not how sure this particular carrier is about producing claim tags but some carriers need that as well as some form of identication. Most likely the agent in the BSO office will ask how she flew to the final destination. That is up to your friend on what she tells them. Again if this is the last leg and there is no more travel she will be fine, but if it is a round trip there could be problems for remaining travel. Years ago passengers use to buy tickets and use the coupons out of order but the airlines caught onto this scheme and put a stop to it. Most US carriers sell two one way trips to combine for a RT. If you dont take the outbound flight the return is cancelled. GOOD LUCK.
aussieindc From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 437 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8585 times:
Let me assure you that certain airlines are looking at ways of auditing this exact practice.
That said, would it not be better for her to check with whom she made the reservation and inquire about a stopover in London? I am pretty certain that for a small change penalty and fare rules permitting, she would be able to do that.
I know you mention Ryanair for onward journey, but as others have pointed out, if there is a return travel portion involved from OSL, they airline may cancel the remaining portion of the ticket. The stopover fee/change penalty is a small price to pay compared to a new one way ticket back.
type-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4397 posts, RR: 20 Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8579 times:
Even though the chance is minimal your friend could end up in this situation:
"You might occasionally run into a risk that a traveler faced several years ago. He was heading from Chicago to Dallas with a hidden city Chicago-Dallas-Los Angeles ticket. When he arrived at O'Hare, the agent told him, "The bad news is that your Chicago-Dallas flight is canceled. The good news is that we were able to rebook you on a nonstop to Los Angeles that actually gets you in earlier than your original itinerary."
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
auroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8524 times:
I know this comes up all the time, but I *really* don't get this part:
Quoting ADent (Reply 1): 1) It is against the "contract" your friend purchased from AA
Now I am nothing close to a lawyer... but isn't a basis of contract law that both parties have read and agreed to the contract ??
I mean a.netter types all know how this works (even though most have probably never read the "contract"), but what about Joe Q Public, who just thinks he/she is buying a bus ticket... and probably not close to being aware of the many, many pages of really small fine print ??
If one buys through a website... then probably one of those "I have read and agreed to... " boxes covers that off... but what about someone buying from a travel agent??
How can someone be prosecuted for breaking a contract they may not even be aware exists ??
lhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8487 times:
Quoting TusAadvantage (Reply 3): It seems kind of dodgy on the part of the airlines that they can force you to fly all segments of your ticket.
Not dodgy at all. Why buy a round trip ticket if your not going to say fly out but only fly back? That goes against the contract you entered into when you brought the ticket.
ssublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 504 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8420 times:
Was in a similar bind as you not too long ago. Needed to fly to CLT, however ORD - CLT - GSP was almost $200 less than simply flying ORD - CLT. The $200 savings would very well pay for the rental car to drive back up to CLT however less convenient. I unfortunately ended up having to fly to GSP as there was no way to get my bags on the outbound flight in CLT, and likely couldn't hop on in CLT headed back to ORD on the return flight.
LH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 282 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8397 times:
Quoting auroralives (Reply 7): what about Joe Q Public, who just thinks he/she is buying a bus ticket
Actually, if you buy a bus ticket you also have a contract with the bus company. They agree to transport you and you agree to adhere to their terms and conditions.
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8350 times:
Quoting auroralives (Reply 7): How can someone be prosecuted for breaking a contract they may not even be aware exists ??
Trust me, they agreed to the contract - one way or another!
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
lhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8273 times:
Quoting auroralives (Reply 7): If one buys through a website... then probably one of those "I have read and agreed to... " boxes covers that off... but what about someone buying from a travel agent??
Thats something the travel agent should provide. But in all reality, would you not ask what rules should be followed, change fees paid etc before you agree to spending a lot of money on something?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8273 times:
Quoting GizmoNC (Reply 4): When you purchase a ticket from a carrier that is IATA member it is considered a contract.
It has nothing to do with IATA. All airline tickets are contracts and subject to the conditions of contract that every airline must legally make available. There's always a link to it somewhere on their websites.
JohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1621 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8168 times:
I had two instances on American where they cancelled my return reservation because I didn't take my connecting flight. Only thing was, the reason I missed the connecting flights was that American had cancelled my originating flights. Probably a computer glitch and I think they've closed this gap, but there's nothing more infuriating than showing up for your return flight with boarding pass in hand only to be told you don't have a seat.
txagkuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 47 Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8106 times:
It wouldn't help your friend but on WN there is no penalty for "hidden city" ticketing. You can't check bags to the hidden city, though, but I was managing with a carry on and a lap top so no sweat.
I was flying DAL-DEN and the fare LBB-DEN with a connection at Dallas was about $60 each way.
When I got back to Dallas I gave them my DAL-LBB boarding pass and said "I'm not going to use this, I'm getting off here". Rather than tell me they were going to charge me extra for having flown DEN-DAL only, the agent said "let me see your credit card so I can refund the additional security fee and leg tax."
I believe it says it in their tariff that there is no penalty for no showing or hidden city ticketing.
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21043 posts, RR: 60 Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8089 times:
Quoting JohnJ (Reply 14): I had two instances on American where they cancelled my return reservation because I didn't take my connecting flight. Only thing was, the reason I missed the connecting flights was that American had cancelled my originating flights. Probably a computer glitch and I think they've closed this gap, but there's nothing more infuriating than showing up for your return flight with boarding pass in hand only to be told you don't have a seat.
AA had been doing this for decades. Some kind of SAABRE issue, I assume.
We had this happen to us on an Australia trip in the 80s on AA+QF. On the return, the QF flight MEL-SYD had a cancelation so they but some pax on the UA MEL-SYD tag to get to their connections in time. We then flew on our original QF SYD-SFO flight. When we arrived in SFO, they had canceled our SFO-DFW-EWR segments on us because we didn't fly the MEL-SYD leg, and were listed in the system as a no show for it. We of course asked them to explain how we arrived in SFO then, and they didn't really want to help as it was Jan 3 and couldn't give a crap about who was bumped or canceled on their overbooked flights, and they ended up splitting us up onto two flights after some volunteers helping an angry lady (my mom) and her crying daughter get home. My brother went on one flight, and my mom, me and little sister on another.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Grid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8091 times:
Quoting auroralives (Reply 7): Now I am nothing close to a lawyer... but isn't a basis of contract law that both parties have read and agreed to the contract ??
I mean a.netter types all know how this works (even though most have probably never read the "contract"), but what about Joe Q Public, who just thinks he/she is buying a bus ticket... and probably not close to being aware of the many, many pages of really small fine print ??
If one buys through a website... then probably one of those "I have read and agreed to... " boxes covers that off... but what about someone buying from a travel agent??
How can someone be prosecuted for breaking a contract they may not even be aware exists ??
They wouldn't be prosecuted for it, they would just break the contract and would live with their actions or sue.
Right, both parties have to agree and read it but they are not going to sit there and watch you read it. Purchasing the ticket probably presumes that you have read the contact and agree to its terms.
A more interesting aspect is that the contract is one-sided, with many of the cards stacked in the airlines' favor. And the consumer has no opportunity to negotiate nor opt-out of any of its terms. These types of contracts are generally disfavored by courts but I have not seen whether a passenger has successfully challenged the contract of carriage.
auroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8009 times:
Quoting Grid (Reply 17): They wouldn't be prosecuted for it, they would just break the contract and would live with their actions or sue.
Thanks Grid.... THAT was the answer I was looking for... makes sense now... but interesting that no pax has ever taken it on given that this type of contract is "generally disfavored by the courts".
dartland From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 637 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7991 times:
To summarize -- this practice is technically against airline policy, but virtually untraceable as long as you:
a) Don't check bags, or are sure you'll get your bags to re-check at the transfer city
b) Don't have a return leg on the same PNR
If the bags do go to OSL, I'd call the airline and tell them you "missed" your connecting flight (at LHR, that's believable no matter how long your layover) and that you'll find your own way there. A few days later, you pick up your bags at the baggage office in OSL -- done and done.
For an anecdote, I did this GVA-EWR-ABE in 2009. (note the EWR-ABE part is a bus!!). I wrongly assumed that my bags would stop in EWR to go through customs with me and then I just wouldn't get on the bus. But...I volunteered to be bumped and take the same flight the following day. My bags went on the original flight, and somehow even without me there, made it all the way to ABE! I arrived in EWR the following day, found out my bags were in ABE, and called CO to tell them I needed them back in NY. They asked why not ABE, and I explained that since I was bumped, my plans had changed and now I wanted to stay in NY. They shipped the bags ABE-EWR on the next bus, and then delivered them to my parents house in NY.
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21043 posts, RR: 60 Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7967 times:
Quoting dartland (Reply 19): and somehow even without me there, made it all the way to ABE!
They go through customs and are screened without you. Happens all the time with misconnected pax or misconnected luggage.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Grid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7920 times:
Quoting auroralives (Reply 18): Quoting Grid (Reply 17):
They wouldn't be prosecuted for it, they would just break the contract and would live with their actions or sue.
Thanks Grid.... THAT was the answer I was looking for... makes sense now... but interesting that no pax has ever taken it on given that this type of contract is "generally disfavored by the courts".
It's probably not worth it unless you pay for first class or business class and something terrible happens, and if that is the case, the airline probably makes it right so you don't have to resort to the courts.
Otherwise, maybe people do challenge and we just don't hear about it - not all opinions and decisions are published and certainly not ones from small claims court.
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7873 times:
Quoting txagkuwait (Reply 15): It wouldn't help your friend but on WN there is no penalty for "hidden city" ticketing.
Also, WN seems to be different in that even for a simple return flight, they don't cancel the return if you are a no show for the outbound leg and don't re-book.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
lhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7816 times:
Quoting dartland (Reply 19): If the bags do go to OSL, I'd call the airline and tell them you "missed" your connecting flight (at LHR, that's believable no matter how long your layover) and that you'll find your own way there. A few days later, you pick up your bags at the baggage office in OSL -- done and done.
The bags would not go to OSL? If a customer does not show for a flight, the bag is offloaded. They would not go anywhere until the customer speaks to the airline.
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21043 posts, RR: 60 Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7805 times:
Quoting lhr380 (Reply 23): The bags would not go to OSL? If a customer does not show for a flight, the bag is offloaded. They would not go anywhere until the customer speaks to the airline.
I believe this is the likely result, that the bags will remain in LHR because they can't go without the customer if the customer is the one who decides not to fly. How you get them back from AA or whoever (BA?) is another question. Can simply claim you missed connection because you fell asleep, etc.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Maverick623: Let's get one thing straight here: your friend bought a ticket from Tucson to Oslo. She did NOT purchase a ticket from Tucson to London. Saying she s
26 odwyerpw: IcelandAir permits you a 3 day layover in Rejavik (they stop midway) with a minimum cost (almost free) when traveling US to Europe (vis a vis). AA may
27 frmrCapCadet: This all is just one more reason that a lot of people are flying a lot less. Although it has been going on for a long time, people are getting tired t
28 txagkuwait: No, it isn't the same thing at all. I try to live within the terms and conditions of the website and avoid calling people names....so I will say inst
29 BCEaglesCO757: People moan and bit^% about airlines all the time on here. Yet some encourage a practice of stealing from an airline. By stealing, I mean they could s
30 Mir: It costs the airline nothing, but it also denies them the ability to use that seat for revenue by selling it to someone else. If people are going to
31 Grid: I was going to respond but someone beat me to it: That is not really stealing, and I don't think anyone could make that argument with a straight face
32 tommytoyz: The seat has been sold already, it has not gone unsold. Just because it goes empty, does not mean it was not paid for. The penalty for not getting on
33 BCEaglesCO757: Stealing is a bit strong of a word I used. My point is that just book a ticket the way you want. Not all this skipping out. It at least allows the air
34 Woof: Are you seriously suggesting that each and every passenger be given the right to negotiate the contract on their ticket? The customer has a choice, a
35 Grid: No, of course not. That would be highly inefficient. And your second sentence is exactly why a number of contracts - adhesion contracts - are voided
36 Woof: No, either abide by our terms or travel with someone else. It is a choice. You are not being forced to buy that ticket, and you likely have other alt
37 vfw614: This is pretty much the only sensible comment in the whole thread. We have seen court cases here in Germany that dealt with the simple question of la
38 Maverick623: Listen, bub. Just because you don't understand the basics of marketing, economics, and contract law, doesn't mean it's "stupid". I can assure you I a
39 Grid: I'm not arguing one way or the other, just tell you how it is. Cell phone companies and credit card companies, various sales agreements. Generally, i
40 ABQopsHP: Many times when we have had weather delays and cancellations from IAH, we will have customers who drive the 200 or so miles down to CRP. We may have c
41 BEG2IAH: Consider this. You have three cities: A, B, and C. Fares A-->B-->C and A-->C are in the same market and are the result of certain level of c
42 cubsrule: Maybe she did, but how about this example: I want to fly BNA-LGA. The nonstop fare is $200. AA doesn't want me connecting at ORD on this route and pr
43 vfw614: See this list of court proceedings against airlines by just one consumer organization in Germany that all dealt with dubious provisions in the contra
44 Woof: After year one of law school a lawyer ye are not. Your analogy is erronous. Said customer did not buy 2 flights but only opt to have one delivered. T
45 Maverick623: I know what you're saying, but for clarity: she did, according to the OP. There is no maybe. The airline has no care as to why you travel: they provi
46 vfw614: Make that the McD "three hamburger meal" for, say, 5 USD. Single hamburgers cost 2 USD each. Can McD force you take all three burgers if you pay 5 US
47 Woof: You are either misunderstanding or choosing to ignore the point I tried to make about your analogy being erronous. She did not buy 3 flights. She bou
48 cubsrule: But they had to know, didn't they? They know how much I paid and how much I could have paid for the nonstop.
49 vfw614: She did from a legal point of view. They just happen to be documented on one ticket and are sold for a lump sum. If it was one flight, you would be u
50 cubsrule: Do you mind? Certainly, in common law countries that principle is that parties can contract for whatever they like, so McDonalds can absolutely sell
51 Maverick623: Who's they? Do you know how many possible routings come up for any given itinerary? How many times fares are changed every second? Again, airlines ar
52 Viscount724: It very often does mean a significant loss of revenue for the airline since the fare for the nonstop sector to the connecting point is often much hig
53 cubsrule: You seem to be talking down to me. I know those things. I also know that it's technically possible for the company to see what options I got and whic
54 TLG: I'm not here to argue about the legality/morals of jumping off, but I do question some of the viewpoints such as this one. The passenger has paid for
55 Maverick623: Except it IS different. You are only looking at cost to the consumer, and completely ignoring the cost to the supplier, and more importantly, supply
56 cubsrule: Not at all. It costs less to supply a 24 pack than 20 single cans, so the 24 pack costs less.
57 TLG: True, but that doesn't have anything to do with this scenario. The airline probably does not fly XXX-OSL, therefore the passenger is routed XXX-LHR-O
58 vfw614: An example for a civil law jurisdiction - section 266 of the German civil code... "Part performance: The obligor is not entitled to render part perfo
59 Maverick623: I think we're getting off track here: there's nothing criminal about using a hidden city ticket. It's a purely civil matter between the airline and t
60 cubsrule: The 24 pack is packaged and moved as a "unit" through all of the distribution chain. The 20 single cans are not. They probably go together on a tray
61 Maverick623: Academic, to be sure, but irrelevant nonetheless. If the passenger made the decision before buying a ticket, then they entered into a contract under
62 cubsrule: Sure they are - the seat can't be supplied individually because it's part of an airplane.
63 Maverick623: Just... wow. I'm done with this thread.
64 vfw614: Not according to the German Supreme Court which has, I beg your pardon, by all accounts greater legal wisdom than you have (I include my usual caveat
65 Maverick623: I find it very hard to believe that a person can enter into a contract with another (or a corporation), and then violate said contract without penalt
66 vfw614: As I have tried to explain, the reasoning of the German Supreme court is that if you buy a ticket on a connecting flight, you purchase two specific fl
67 Maverick623: Absolutely not true at all. There are dozens of reasons to book one of many different itineraries presented to the buyer, and not a single one matter
68 vfw614: Well, as I said before, I am not expressing my personal opinion, but just conveying the state of the law in this jurisdiction as defined by the highes
69 Maverick623: Understood, and I apologize if I come across as such. You are merely presenting the laws as they are written, while I am arguing against those laws a
70 airbuseric: Why all the hassle, because I wouldn't take the risk that AA cancels the return portions of the ticket. Also, just get the bags tagged to LHR instead
71 cubsrule: Some of those terms - (a) in particular - are pretty appalling to those of us in the common law world. Why shouldn't I be able to contract away my ri
72 vfw614: These rules only apply (a) in a contractual relationship between a consumer and person who is acting for purposes relating to his trade, business or p
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