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ZYR-AMS Question  
User currently offlinenipoel123 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 269 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

Hi all,

I was looking at flight to YYZ yesterday, when I saw a very attractive offer on KL. The itinerary is as follows
ZYR (Brussels Midi Station) - AMS by train
AMS-YYZ on a 744.
This would cost me 'only' €740,-.

An AMS-YYZ only itinerary would cost me €1090,-.

I now wonder whether I can just skip the train leg, and go to AMS straight away. From my place to Brussels or Schiphol is only a 15 min. difference, so it wouldn't make much of a difference there, I would have to be in Brussels earlier though.

Anyone have any experience on this?

Nick


one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3005 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

This is probably partly due to the lower cost of international air taxes on leaving Belgium. As the first leg is by train though, and there is no checked baggage facility, would there actually be any way for the airline to know you're doing this "hidden city ticketing"? If it was an actual flight not a train, it would clearly be worth making the extra trip to start from BRU...

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 771 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3557 times:
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To skip the first part would be very logical. I know a couple of years ago people buying tickets BRU/CGN/DUS - AMS - onwards because it saved hundreds of Euros. Skipping the first leg and boarding in AMS. Saves a lot of time and money.

Though it is very strange and logical to avoid the first leg, KL will treat you as a no-show and you ar - thus - not permitted to board your AMS - YYZ leg.


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 2):
Though it is very strange and logical to avoid the first leg, KL will treat you as a no-show and you ar - thus - not permitted to board your AMS - YYZ leg.

No it is not strange that KL cancel your whole itinerary if you do not show up to the first flight. You bought a ticket from A to C via B and not from B to C. If you only wanted to travel B to C you should have booked that, even if it is more expensive.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 771 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3546 times:
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Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):
No it is not strange that KL cancel your whole itinerary if you do not show up to the first flight. You bought a ticket from A to C via B and not from B to C. If you only wanted to travel B to C you should have booked that, even if it is more expensive.

OK, you have a point. BTW. I would never do such a thing. I live 5 km from AMS but imagine, first taking a train / driving to Dusseldorf, park your car (how much will cost this???). What are your savings then?


User currently offlinesignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3005 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3530 times:

The OP's original point is that the first leg is operated by a train, so there is no way of KL knowing if he took the flight or not.

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1871 posts, RR: 41
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3525 times:
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I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

Martijn

Exactly, would not risk it, especially as the OP says it is only a 15 min difference to go to BRU instead of AMS.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinenipoel123 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Thanks a lot everyone,

I agree it's not worth taking the risk. I'm afraid that at check-in they might ask for a stamped train ticket. To Brussels it is, then!



one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 8):
Thanks a lot everyone,

I agree it's not worth taking the risk. I'm afraid that at check-in they might ask for a stamped train ticket. To Brussels it is, then!

Have a safe and enjoyable trip!



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

You also have to present your KLM ticket at the railway station and obtain a rail ticket before boading the train.
https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/plan_and_book/booking/booking_options/Travel_by_rail_with_a_KLM_ticket.htm


User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3104 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

KLM often offers much cheaper tickets from Brussels-Midi or Antwerpen-Centraal than they do from AMS. Makes no sense, and probably explains part of the reason that AFKLM is doing so poorly.

Unfortunately you must check in at the train station in Belgium, or the rest of the trip will be cancelled.

On the return, it's easier - just go claim your train ticket at the NS offices at Schiphol, and head on to wherever you're going. Don't actually need to get on any trains.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 11):
KLM often offers much cheaper tickets from Brussels-Midi or Antwerpen-Centraal than they do from AMS. Makes no sense, and probably explains part of the reason that AFKLM is doing so poorly.

It does make sense. I'd suggest searching on the net on yield management and competition litterature.
A non stop flight is more attractive, so KLM can ask a premium for these.
If you live close to Brussels, an Air Canada non stop flight to YYZ is more attractive then a train and changing on Schiphol. To scoop passengers away and fill up their AMS-YYZ flight, they downcut these prices, without spoiling the price level for the non stop market from Amsterdam. So in this case they fill for instance fill up the plane with 150 non stop pax paying 800 return and 150 pax paying 600 euro to fly from Brussels, Billund and Stuttgart and still make more money then asking everyone to pay 700 for Amsterdam-Toronto and only have 200 passengers willing to pay that, and have 100 seats empty.
All airlines do that, including very successful ones. In Amsterdam we have often very cheap connecting flights with Lufthansa, BA, Austrian while their native passengers have to pay more for the non stop flight. Or look at Emirates which O/D nonstop flights are often more expensive while you get less mileage then the connecting itenerary.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinenipoel123 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 11):
On the return, it's easier - just go claim your train ticket at the NS offices at Schiphol, and head on to wherever you're going. Don't actually need to get on any trains.

I do have to claim the ticket? What would happen if I didn't?

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 12):
If you live close to Brussels, an Air Canada non stop flight to YYZ is more attractive then a train and changing on Schiphol.

That flight has a stop in YUL, as far as I know, and I've been checking flights the entire Saturday morning  .



one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

I didn't check all schedules, but now I see Jet Airways has a non stopper to YYZ. So KLMs has to undercut their prices at least with 100-200 euro to get a part of the Belgian market.


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3104 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 13):

I do have to claim the ticket? What would happen if I didn't?

I don't think anything bad would happen, but since you're there already you might as well. In an extreme case, KLM could try to claim some sort of damages for breach of contract (truly stupid, but technically they might be able to make such a case).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 12):
All airlines do that, including very successful ones. In Amsterdam we have often very cheap connecting flights with Lufthansa, BA, Austrian while their native passengers have to pay more for the non stop flight. Or look at Emirates which O/D nonstop flights are often more expensive while you get less mileage then the connecting itenerary.

If they didn´t do that, many airlines wouldn´t exist or would be much smaller since their home markets are much too small to justify their extensive route networks. KL and LX are good examples. Like KL 6th freedom fares via AMS, LX fares for connections at ZRH are usually lower than for O&D travel to/from ZRH.

Today´s sophisticated revenue management systems can control the inventory to ensure that lower-yield connecting traffic doesn´t displace higher-yield O&D traffic to/from the hub where you should be able to charge a premium for nonstop service.


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